Relaxation of Restrictions, Part IX Read OP For Mod Warnings

03-03-2021 03:48PM

Hellrazer wrote: »

I said it previously - NPHET should not be given any air time. They should not be allowed to make announcements or have press conferences.

The only people that should communicate the days figures etc should be the government. By giving nphet airtime, press conferences all we have done is massaged their egos and made them seem infallible.

The briefing is a department of health briefing and NPHET are a team within the department of health. The briefing is lead by the CMO or representative and as such is the lead medical expert within the department. Why anyone would think it would be more appropriate for Stephen Donnelly to deliver the message is beyond me.

Allinall · 03-03-2021 03:49PM

Hellrazer wrote: »

So true - Nphet will be a part of Irish society and politics for a long time to come.

May not be a bad thing.

Sure what do our government know about health emergencies?

_Kaiser_ · 03-03-2021 03:54PM

Deleted User wrote: »

The briefing is a department of health briefing and NPHET are a team within the department of health. The briefing is lead by the CMO or representative and as such is the lead medical expert within the department. Why anyone would think it would be more appropriate for Stephen Donnelly to deliver the message is beyond me.

Because Donnelly as the current Minister is the face of that department and should be sufficiently briefed and competent in the role to be able to present the updates as needed.

What we have done is create local celebs out of Holohan, Glynn and co. Given that infamous Sunday referenced above, this is a dangerous thing in regards to the authority of the Minister and Goverment as a whole.

The buck should ultimately stop with Donnelly and Martin, but instead we have a situation where the tail is wagging the dog.

Sobit1964 · 03-03-2021 03:54PM

Deleted User wrote: »

The briefing is a department of health briefing and NPHET are a team within the department of health. The briefing is lead by the CMO or representative and as such is the lead medical expert within the department. Why anyone would think it would be more appropriate for Stephen Donnelly to deliver the message is beyond me.

To be fair zig and zag would do a better job than these dead eyed muppets

growleaves · 03-03-2021 03:56PM

Deleted User wrote: »

The briefing is a department of health briefing and NPHET are a team within the department of health. The briefing is lead by the CMO or representative and as such is the lead medical expert within the department. Why anyone would think it would be more appropriate for Stephen Donnelly to deliver the message is beyond me.

Because the CMO is perceived as having overleaped his remit and behaved as a political actor, trying to steer government policy through media influence. Therefore NPHET should either be disbanded or their media profile should be taken away. Banning them from briefings could achieve the latter.

Are you happy for NPHET to dabble in politics?

03-03-2021 03:56PM

We should not know the names of the members of NPHET in the first place. Government yes, NPHET no.

paw patrol · 03-03-2021 04:01PM

growleaves wrote: »

Because the CMO is perceived as having overleaped his remit and behaved as a political actor, trying to steer government policy through media influence. Therefore NPHET should either be disbanded or their media profile should be taken away. Banning them from briefings could achieve the latter.

Are you happy for NPHET to dabble in politics?

is that the crux of the massive grip people on all sides have with the state and it's organs.
you have half a dozen voices (maybe more) spewing their musing on all media platforms...often saying different things.

And my personal hatred , the floating of ideas in advance to soften the public to bad news which does the opposite and only heightens anxiety with people while they await official news which is usually days or weeks away

I can accept if it's just some professor but from within the state and people on the state payroll there should be 1 message of clarity and state employees who breach this should be fired (or beaten).

Pdoghue · 03-03-2021 04:03PM

growleaves wrote: »

I'm not talking about off-loading responsibility and authority onto private sector actors, I'm saying that the mass of people should make it clear that they reject harmful and immoral measures first of all and then (if necessary) will go-along with proportionate measures that fall short of being damaging.

But we have a mechanism for that. A successful vote of no confidence in the government leading to a new government (possibly after an election) which imposes less draconian measures on the people.

Is that what you had in mind, or something else?

03-03-2021 04:08PM

Got it. The minister of health is more qualified to speak on an ongoing pandemic than the Chief Medical Officer because he doesn't say what you want him to say.

Boggles · 03-03-2021 04:08PM

growleaves wrote: »

Because the CMO is perceived as having overleaped his remit and behaved as a political actor,

Largely by half wits who are permanently outraged by everything and insist they have all the easy solutions.

growleaves wrote: »

Therefore NPHET should either be disbanded or their media profile should be taken away.

Yes we should definitely disband our pandemic emergency team in the middle of once in a generation pandemic, super idea!

I propose we replace them with that anti vax doctor that's championed on her by some, he'll steer us through this.

Hellrazer · 03-03-2021 04:12PM

paw patrol wrote: »

is that the crux of the massive grip people on all sides have with the state and it's organs.
you have half a dozen voices spewing their musing on all media platforms...often saying different things.

I can accept if it's just some professor but from within the state and people on the state payroll there should be 1 message of clarity and state employees who breach this should be fired (or beaten)

I think its half the problem with the sheer communication issues that is perceived by the public. There are too many people involved with the communication to the general population and as such some of the messages are lost in translation so to speak.
If only one person communicated to the public it would go some way to alleviate this misperception.

Hellrazer · 03-03-2021 04:15PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Got it. The minister of health is more qualified to speak on an ongoing pandemic than the Chief Medical Officer because he doesn't say what you want him to say.

Is he really though?

In my opinion the CMO isnt really that qualified either and thats not because hes not saying what I want to hear.

timmyntc · 03-03-2021 04:20PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Got it. The minister of health is more qualified to speak on an ongoing pandemic than the Chief Medical Officer because he doesn't say what you want him to say.

The Minister is accountable to the public - the CMO is not.
This is why we have ministers in the first place to head up Departments - otherwise we would just let high-ranking civil servants run the country unopposed.

In fact what is happening right now with Holohan & the govt is a prime example of why Ministers should always take charge of the Department. Because if everything is left to the civil servants, there is no accountability. The govt have deferred responsiblity onto NPHET, and NPHET are not publically electable so have no consequences for their actions.

Boggles · 03-03-2021 04:20PM

Hellrazer wrote: »

I think its half the problem with the sheer communication issues that is perceived by the public. There are too many people involved with the communication to the general population and as such some of the messages are lost in translation so to speak.
If only one person communicated to the public it would go some way to alleviate this misperception.

What messages?

I mean if people are confused by the very basic messaging at this stage, short of putting down some straw and getting the crayons out there is not much that can be done for those people.

03-03-2021 04:22PM

Hellrazer wrote: »

Is he really though?

In my opinion the CMO isnt really that qualified either and thats not because hes not saying what I want to hear.

I would add that, given Holohan's policies have failed to keep the number of deaths low (relative to how many other comparable European countries have done and their attenuated form of lockdown) - it demonstrates precisely the fact, and gives evidence to the conclusion, that Holohan is not qualified to maintain the position he now holds.

He has failed as CMO; the second time now after the cervical check crisis.

Yet the damage he wrought on the country continues apace.

_Kaiser_ · 03-03-2021 04:22PM

Hellrazer wrote: »

Is he really though?

In my opinion the CMO isnt really that qualified either and thats not because hes not saying what I want to hear.

He's (Holohan) not - he's a former GP and an Administrator with a lot of management qualifications.

He's no more an expert than anyone else of that background - his job is to translate the "technical science" into language that can be understood by the Department, Minister and the Public and present that to them in such a way that it can be balanced against the other factors involved in making the decisions.

A job he's failed spectacularly at by the way.

Hellrazer · 03-03-2021 04:23PM

Boggles wrote: »

What messages?

I mean if people are confused by the very basic messaging at this stage, short of putting down some straw and getting the crayons out there is not much that can be done for those people.

Well Donnelly was going to use his new crayons that he got on his first day of school for his colour coded 5 point plan a few months back - maybe he`d loan them to others?

corcaigh07 · 03-03-2021 04:23PM

Anyone see RTEs main page at the moment? I'm not excusing what the firework attacker did on Saturday but...

Why is he front and centre of RTEs news page with the clearest of photos? Why is his (almost) exact address in the article?

Boggles · 03-03-2021 04:27PM

corcaigh07 wrote: »

Anyone see RTEs main page at the moment? I'm not excusing what the firework attacker did on Saturday but...

Why is he front and centre of RTEs news page with the clearest of photos? Why is his (almost) exact address in the article?

He is alleged to have produced an eight-cannon firework and discharged it at gardaí, thrown two other glass bottles at gardaí and been in possession of two other glass bottles

Who gives a flying fúck?

Hopefully the cretin gets a custodial sentence.

growleaves · 03-03-2021 04:28PM

timmyntc wrote: »

The Minister is accountable to the public - the CMO is not.
This is why we have ministers in the first place to head up Departments - otherwise we would just let high-ranking civil servants run the country unopposed.

In fact what is happening right now with Holohan & the govt is a prime example of why Ministers should always take charge of the Department. Because if everything is left to the civil servants, there is no accountability. The govt have deferred responsiblity onto NPHET, and NPHET are not publically electable so have no consequences for their actions.

I would't bother getting into a breakdown of authority.

They seem to think that the CMO's authority is transcendent, above and beyond politics, but deigning to interfere in politics when it is deemed to further the cause he represents.

He isn't answerable to any government, he's the top-ranking medical expert - a sort of standalone figure in the pantheon of gods.

The Nal · 03-03-2021 04:30PM

corcaigh07 wrote: »

Anyone see RTEs main page at the moment? I'm not excusing what the firework attacker did on Saturday but...

Why is he front and centre of RTEs news page with the clearest of photos? Why is his (almost) exact address in the article?

Because it was a very public event that got widespread national coverage. So naturally, the arrest would also get widespread national coverage.

Windmill100000 · 03-03-2021 04:30PM

corcaigh07 wrote: »

Anyone see RTEs main page at the moment? I'm not excusing what the firework attacker did on Saturday but...

Why is he front and centre of RTEs news page with the clearest of photos? Why is his (almost) exact address in the article?

Probably because the attack was all over the news a few days ago and he has been charged.

timmyntc · 03-03-2021 04:31PM

Boggles wrote: »

Who gives a flying fúck?

Hopefully the cretin gets a custodial sentence.

Havent you ever heard of innocent until proven guilty?

We have due process here, until convicted he shouldnt get his face plastered all over the media along with his home address.

What if it turned out he was the wrong guy? :rolleyes:
That comment shows a lot about you though

Father Hernandez · 03-03-2021 04:35PM

The Nal wrote: »

Because it was a very public event that got widespread national coverage. So naturally, the arrest would also get widespread national coverage.

I think the original point was that the main headline *should* be IMO, the fact that the HSE misses 100,000 vaccine dose target for last week. A story that affects us all and decreases the chance of us getting out of this shít show sooner.

Whatever about the reasons for it, the targets are low anyway and we are missing them.

It's a much bigger story again IMO, than some low life charged with the firework incident at the protest.

It speaks volumes that the weekly vaccine target not being met is not the headline article, rather the protestor incident is.

Boggles · 03-03-2021 04:36PM

timmyntc wrote: »

Havent you ever heard of innocent until proven guilty?

We have due process here, until convicted he shouldnt get his face plastered all over the media along with his home address.

What if it turned out he was the wrong guy? :rolleyes:
That comment shows a lot about you though

Well if the eye witnesses, the social media videos, the CCTV footage and the DNA they recovered from the firework all turn out to be someone else I'll apologize.

:rolleyes:

paw patrol · 03-03-2021 04:36PM

Boggles wrote: »

Who gives a flying fúck?

Hopefully the cretin gets a custodial sentence.

Pay attention to the word "alleged" ?
Clearly the constitutional protection of innocent till proven otherwise means nothing to you....

timmyntc · 03-03-2021 04:37PM

Boggles wrote: »

Well if the eye witnesses, the social media videos, the CCTV footage and the DNA they recovered from the firework all turn out to be someone else I'll apologies.

:rolleyes:

Thank god we have competent logical people in charge of the justice system in this country - with the likes of yourself we would be convicting people left right and centre based on feelings and emotions rather than logic and the truth. The reason we have the concept of innocent until proven guilty and other such things is to ensure that no innocent person gets wrongly punished. You cant just skip all these steps and jumps straight to guilty.

Boggles · 03-03-2021 04:38PM

timmyntc wrote: »

Thank god we have competent logical people in charge of the justice system in this country - with the likes of yourself we would be convicting people left right and centre based on feelings.

Where did I say he should not get a fair trial?

Something tells me he will be pleading guilty though.

growleaves · 03-03-2021 04:39PM

paw patrol wrote: »

Pay attention to the word "alleged" ?
Clearly the constitutional protection of innocent till proven otherwise means nothing to you....

Ah but didn't some FG head say that constitutional protections are just an excuse for people to hide behind?

Presumption of innocence, Habeas corpus, protection from illegal searches and seizures - real Covidiot stuff

The Nal · 03-03-2021 04:39PM

Father Hernandez wrote: »

I think the original point was that the main headline *should* be IMO, the fact that the HSE misses 100,000 vaccine dose target for last week.

Oh I agree 100%. And Harris is on Twitter giving out about the students in Limerick instead.

Relaxation of Restrictions, Part IX *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

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Relaxation of Restrictions, Part IX Read OP For Mod Warnings