Relaxation of Restrictions, Part IX *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

Kermit.de.frog

timmyntc wrote: »

Belief not science

Provide the data.

I have given you the platform. Prove me wrong.

Or you can't. You either can or you can't.

It's you that is belief over science, opinion over stats.

Kermit.de.frog

SnuggyBear wrote: »

How can anyone say with a straight face we haven't had the harshest restrictions in the EU ? Baffling.

Did you at any stage require a permit to leave your house?

Kermit.de.frog

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Provide the data.

I have given you the platform. Prove me wrong.

Or you can't. You either can or you can't.

It's you that is belief over science, opinion over stats.

Anyone who was lucky enough to travel to Europe last year, or any Irish person living on the continent, would laugh at your requests for data.

It's so blindingly obvious that Ireland has had the toughest, longest, and needless lockdown compared to the rest of Europe.

Boggles

timmyntc wrote: »

You were arguing against seasonality of the virus, You were proven wrong. Now you are deflecting.

Was I?

When was the last time there was 10,000+ instances of the Flu daily in Florida in July and 1000s of deaths during the summer from the Flu?

Kermit.de.frog

Deleted User wrote: »

Anyone who was lucky enough to travel to Europe last year, or any Irish person living on the continent, would laugh at your requests for data.

It's so blindingly obvious that Ireland has had the toughest, longest, and needless lockdown compared to the rest of Europe.

If it's so obvious provide the data that proves it.

Responder XY

You are probably trolling - but if you are so keen on this. Why don't you show the data which demonstrates the European countries which have had more restrictions than Ireland.

You are holding the minority view here at the moment, so prove your point if you believe so firmly the data will back you up.

timmyntc

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Provide the data.

I have given you the platform. Prove me wrong.

Or you can't. You either can or you can't.

It's you that is belief over science, opinion over stats.

Your arguments are incredibly dishonest & disingenuous, with evidence like that tweet held up as proof :rolleyes:

No doubt as soon as I post more graphs you will come shifting the goalposts again on how the stats are unfair because Ireland isnt like other countries because of reasons.

The reality is there has been plenty of statistics posted in this and other threads again and again - if you really want to see it you can flick back through the pages. But of course you dont want to see them - you just want to sing the praises of the lockdown brigade.

If I do post stats again for you, you will disappear then re-appear a week later posting the exact same arguments and asking for someone else to "provide the data". Its a pitiful standard of discussion from yourself - avoiding the facts so that you can "win" an argument based on some technicalities that you make up yourself.

ypres5

Responder XY wrote: »

You are probably trolling - but if you are so keen on this. Why don't you show the data which demonstrates the European countries which have had more restrictions than Ireland.

You are holding the minority view here at the moment, so prove your point if you believe so firmly the data will back you up.

they'll probably mention curfews in some countries, completely ignoring the fact that a curfew here would be pointless as theres feck all open to stop people from going to

timmyntc

Boggles wrote: »

Was I?

When was the last time there was 10,000+ instances of the Flu daily in Florida in July and 1000s of deaths during the summer from the Flu?

Covid is not a flu B, you know this.

growleaves

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

This is all feelings outside of any data.

If it's irrefutable, show us all.

It shouldn't be an issue finding the reputable source on which your opinion is based.

If you do that we'll all accept it.

The graceless way in which people demand sources and datasets, hinting that they must not otherwise exist if they haven't been produced immediately on demand, must be the least loveliest thing about this site.

Since it was in all the newspapers that Oxford university and other institutions had declared Ireland one of the strictest lockdowns in the world it is basically already a known fact that the poster is correct and that there is data backing what he says.

I've gone and found a news article after a few seconds of searching:

Ireland under strictest lockdown in EU, claims Oxford report

Scroll down to 'Oxford coronavirus government response stringency index' where Ireland is rated the harshest in the EU, the sixth harshest in the world and it gives a brief summary of some of the criteria they use to make this judgement.

Here is the web page of Oxford University Blavatnik School of Government's Coronavirus Government Response Tracker which has papers and datasets:

https://www.bsg.ox.ac.uk/research/research-projects/coronavirus-government-response-tracker#data

Boggles

timmyntc wrote: »

Covid is not a flu B, you know this.

I'm not the one arguing the Covid follows the exact same pattern as the Flu.

Again, like I said if you are going to make an argument for someone by proxy than it's best to arm yourself with what that argument is.

I suggest letting him debate his own opinions. Because you are having a completely different discussion and trying to attribute it to him.

So we will leave it there.

timmyntc

timmyntc wrote: »

If I do post stats again for you, you will disappear then re-appear a week later posting the exact same arguments and asking for someone else to "provide the data". Its a pitiful standard of discussion from yourself - avoiding the facts so that you can "win" an argument based on some technicalities that you make up yourself.

It's almost reminiscent of Young-Earth Creationists.

They always ask for evidence, but when you provide that evidence - they shift and argue that what is presented as evidence isn't valid (according to their narrow criteria). But when you ask them for evidence, they ultimately rely on faith at the very core; and this is precisely what we are seeing with this poster.

Responder XY

Responder XY wrote: »

You are probably trolling - but if you are so keen on this. Why don't you show the data which demonstrates the European countries which have had more restrictions than Ireland.

You are holding the minority view here at the moment, so prove your point if you believe so firmly the data will back you up.

There are none so blind as those who refuse to see. This very morning, link provided that states in unambiguous terms that workplaces have been closed here for 163 days. Longer than any other country in Europe. The next phrase that springs to mind starts with "slam" and ends in "dunk".

Kermit.de.frog

growleaves wrote: »

The graceless way in which people demand sources and datasets, hinting that they must not otherwise exist if they haven't been produced immediately on demand, must be the least loveliest thing about this site.

Since it was in all the newspapers that Oxford university and other institutions had declared Ireland one of the strictest lockdowns in the world it is basically already a known fact that the poster is correct and that there is data backing what he says.

I've gone and found a news article after a few seconds of searching:

Ireland under strictest lockdown in EU, claims Oxford report

Scroll down to 'Oxford coronavirus government response stringency index' where Ireland is rated the harshest in the EU, the sixth harshest in the world and it gives a brief summary of some of the criteria they use to make this judgement.

Here is the web page of Oxford University Blavatnik School of Government's Coronavirus Government Response Tracker which has papers and datasets:

https://www.bsg.ox.ac.uk/research/research-projects/coronavirus-government-response-tracker#data

So according to Oxford the UK has had a tougher range of restrictions than Ireland and we are only marginally ahead of Germany.

Fine.

So we can stop with the nonsense of having Europe's "harshest" lockdown then because we don't according to that analysis.

Then there is the issue of the confusion between longevity and toughness. Countries across Europe have been in and out of different severity of restrictions throughout.

But Ireland managed to avoid that rollercoaster until Christmas by having what I deem a pretty lax regime to keep control compared to what we have now.

It only reinforces the view - if you make policy decisions that open things up too much you end up with a sharper correction having to be inflicted.

So in the round Ireland is not out of sync at all. It all balances out in the end.

I'd welcome any more analysis.

Housefree

Garda went around to shops like Dealz yesterday here and some other shops and made them stop selling the majority of their stuff, you could buy anything in it up till then. Only washing & food stuffs. Can't buy DIY stuff but woodies right beside it you can. Makes no sense

big syke

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

But Ireland managed to avoid that rollercoaster until Christmas by having what I deem a pretty lax regime to keep control compared to what we have now.

Is this based on belief and feelings ?

Kermit.de.frog

timmyntc wrote: »

Your arguments are incredibly dishonest & disingenuous, with evidence like that tweet held up as proof :rolleyes:

.

You're the one not producing evidence.

The onus is on you.

It's you and others that come on boards day in day out with an agenda and nothing to back it up except feelings.

ypres5

big syke wrote: »

Is this based on belief and feelings ?

going by that posters previous posts anything that doesn't involve people being barricaded into their homes at gunpoint by chinese soldiers would be considered lax

growleaves

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

So according to Oxford the UK has had a tougher range of restrictions than Ireland and we are only marginally ahead of Germany.

The current rating of the Blatavnik School puts both Ireland and UK on 87.96

https://covidtracker.bsg.ox.ac.uk/stringency-map

Either the breakingnews.ie article is out of date (which means the rankings are shifting?) or they've made a mistake.

Probably the latter as the Irish Post reports, using the same source, Ireland as 'the strictest in Europe, and the fourth strictest in the world'.

Ireland's coronavirus lockdown ranked toughest in Europe, and 4th toughest in the world

SnuggyBear

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Did you at any stage require a permit to leave your house?

Where did this happen and for how long?
I've been allowed work 3 months out of the last 12 months. I bet I would have been allowed work longer in whatever country your on about.

ypres5

growleaves wrote: »

The current rating of the Blatavnik School puts both Ireland and UK on 87.96

https://covidtracker.bsg.ox.ac.uk/stringency-map

Either the breakingnews.ie article is out of date (which means the rankings are shifting?) or they've made a mistake.

Probably the latter as the Irish Post reports, using the same source, Ireland as 'the strictest in Europe, and the fourth strictest in the world'.

Ireland's coronavirus lockdown ranked toughest in Europe, and 4th toughest in the world

According to the oxford uni study on lockdowns we're the strictest in europe and 3rd overall behind such stable and Democratic nations as cuba and eritrea

growleaves

Ireland

Stringency level of 87.96 is driven by:

C1
School closing
Require closing (all levels)

C2
Workplace closing
Require closing all but essential

C3
Cancel public events
Required

C4
Restrictions on gatherings
Restrictions on gatherings of 10 or fewer people

C5
Close public transport
Recommended

C6
Stay at home requirements
Required with exceptions

C7
Restrictions on internal movement
Required

C8
International travel controls
Ban

E1
Income support
>50% lost income

E2
Debt/contract relief
Broad

E3
Fiscal measures
USD Value

E4
International support
USD Value

H1
Public information campaigns
Coordinated public campaign

H2
Testing policy
Anyone symptomatic

H3
Contact tracing
Comprehensive

H4
Emergency investment in healthcare
USD Value

H5
Investment in vaccines
USD Value

H6
Facial Coverings
Required in all public spaces

H7
Vaccination policy
Two groups

H8
Protection of elderly people
Extensive protections

Link

Kermit.de.frog

big syke wrote: »

Is this based on belief and feelings ?

People will have their own interpretations of what is lax.

Given the nature of the problem it's been lax everywhere.

There has never been, outside of China and a handful of other areas, actual "lockdowns" - there have been restrictions to varying levels.

An actual lockdown I would consider something to be magnitudes greater than what we actually had prior to Christmas.

Even today the language is wrong. We don't have a lockdown, we have restrictions.

No one is confined to their homes.

big syke

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

People will have their own interpretations of what is lax.

Given the nature of the problem it's been lax everywhere.

There has never been, outside of China and a handful of other areas, actual "lockdowns" - there have been restrictions to varying levels.

An actual lockdown I would consider something to be magnitudes greater than what we actually had prior to Christmas.

Even today the language is wrong. We don't have a lockdown, we have restrictions.

No one is confined to their homes.

But where is your data?

SnuggyBear

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

People will have their own interpretations of what is lax.

Given the nature of the problem it's been lax everywhere.

There has never been, outside of China and a handful of other areas, actual "lockdowns" - there have been restrictions to varying levels.

An actual lockdown I would consider something to be magnitudes greater than what we actually had prior to Christmas.

Even today the language is wrong. We don't have a lockdown, we have restrictions.

No one is confined to their homes.

Dictonary definition of lockdown

a period of time in which people are not allowed to leave their homes or travel freely, because of a dangerous disease:

"travel freely"

growleaves

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

People will have their own interpretations of what is lax.

Given the nature of the problem it's been lax everywhere.

There has never been, outside of China and a handful of other areas, actual "lockdowns" - there have been restrictions to varying levels.

An actual lockdown I would consider something to be magnitudes greater than what we actually had prior to Christmas.

Even today the language is wrong. We don't have a lockdown, we have restrictions.

No one is confined to their homes.

'The language is wrong'

Lockdown is a colloquial term which has been borrowed from prison slang. Its not as if the arbitrary definition you give it has any more validity than other person's definition.

Kermit.de.frog

big syke wrote: »

But where is your data?

The data is in the number of worldwide infections and deaths.

The virus was not contained. Ergo measures were too lax and it's something the world has to learn from.

If the initial measures are too lax then the counter measures have to be longer with waves of severity just to keep control.

That's what we have experienced.

big syke

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The data is in the number of worldwide infections and deaths.

The virus was not contained. Ergo measures were too lax and it's something the world has to learn from.

If the measures are too lax then the counter measures have to be longer with waves of severity just to keep control.

That's what we have experienced.

No you must be confused thats not the data you need to show silly billy.

Where is the data and proof of our lax measures compared to other countires.

Data not opinions or belief that more infetions = measures were too lax.

Kermit.de.frog

big syke wrote: »

No you must be confused thats not the data you need to show silly billy.

Where is the data and proof of our lax measures compared to other countires.

Data not opinions or belief that more infetions = measures were too lax.

Cases: 115,397,905
Deaths: 2,562,643

That's the data that proves the point. It was China that allowed 5 million people fly out of Wuhan for the Lunar new year last year.

I'm sure it could have gotten out other ways but the measures were not in place and that's why we are in the situation we are today.

Then of course democracies struggle more to take the measures they should take.

Only strict lockdowns and isolation can stop a potentially deadly novel virus like this spreading.

It's not me saying it - it's suppose to be standard practice.

frank8211

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

People will have their own interpretations of what is lax.

Given the nature of the problem it's been lax everywhere.

There has never been, outside of China and a handful of other areas, actual "lockdowns" - there have been restrictions to varying levels.

An actual lockdown I would consider something to be magnitudes greater than what we actually had prior to Christmas.

Even today the language is wrong. We don't have a lockdown, we have restrictions.

No one is confined to their homes.

We have a weaker health service compared with countries with more lax restrictions. They can take chances that we cant take