Relaxation of Restrictions, Part IX Read OP For Mod Warnings

Silentcorner · 03-03-2021 02:17PM

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

The hysteria is in overdrive

Main news item, Simon Harris jumped out of bed in his pyjamas last night to ring the Dean of Limerick university 3 times to discuss the incident and suitable punishment.

The 4th news item was the failure to meet vaccine target

Have they blamed the far right for the young people behaving like young people yet?

Simon Harris like too many Fg Ministers in particular, has regressed in ability recent years since he figured out how to use twitter!!!

Hellrazer · 03-03-2021 02:20PM

JRant wrote: »

Pretty dangerous stuff all the same. I mean "requiring" them to watch a piece of state sponsored material and having to write 2000 words of how wicked they were and have now seen the light is disturbing.

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

The hysteria is in overdrive

Main news item, Simon Harris jumped out of bed in his pyjamas last night to ring the Dean of Limerick university 3 times to discuss the incident and suitable punishment.

You couldnt make this **** up.

Theres going to be a sitcom about Irelands handling of this pandemic one day.

RGS · 03-03-2021 02:24PM

I listened to Harris on Newstalk at 1pm. He was ranting and raving like a lunatic.

He had the students expelled before due process has even started.

How any one in FG can seriously suggest he is a potential party leader after leo is beyond any comprehension.

walus · 03-03-2021 02:30PM

growleaves wrote: »

Once of the worst restrictions imo has been the closure of outdoor food markets all over the country while you can still go into a supermarket and buy from a large food manufacturer.

Outdoor sellers were already masked and taking precautions before the councils shut them down. Many of them have had to jack it in now.

The money from PUP and other subsidies is being funneled to landlords, large supermarket chains, large online retailers and other rent-seekers and monopolists.

This debt-based monetary system allows us to strangle the economy without collapsing it but at the cost of simultaneously funneling wealth upwards and then re-paying that money back to the Exchequer in taxes at a future date.

The middle class participation in job market has been falling in Ireland more so than in other EU countries already (see attachment). Closure of businesses due to the lockdown strategy implemented by the government will only exaggerate this effect. I said this many times here: middle class is being murdered while we are all watching.

OwenM · 03-03-2021 02:32PM

RGS wrote: »

I listened to Harris on Newstalk at 1pm. He was ranting and raving like a lunatic.

He had the students expelled before due process has even started.

How any one in FG can seriously suggest he is a potential party leader after leo is beyond any comprehension.

He is also slimy, in the sense that whatever version of the truth suits him at a particular moment gets trotted out, cannot stand him and I've been known to vote FG the odd time.

_Kaiser_ · 03-03-2021 02:33PM

RGS wrote: »

I listened to Harris on Newstalk at 1pm. He was ranting and raving like a lunatic.

He had the students expelled before due process has even started.

How any one in FG can seriously suggest he is a potential party leader after leo is beyond any comprehension.

Very easily really.

Leo is likewise led by social media "trends" and outrage. Harris is only following his boss's example.

McEntee is another one of the same ilk.

The future of FG right there folks.. democracy by Twitter polls.

03-03-2021 02:35PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

McEntee is another one of the same ilk.

The future of FG right there folks.. democracy by Twitter polls.

McEntee is a snake in the grass; inherited the position after her TD father passed away.

There's nothing worse than hereditary politics.

Pdoghue · 03-03-2021 02:40PM

growleaves wrote: »

However what's far more common is deference to the technostructure, which goes like this: The experts/Government/the European Central Bank are the people who understand these things. They have competence and no reason to not have good motives (notice the double negative, phrased that way on purpose since that is how the argument is ultimately understood) therefore we must do everything they say and there is no need for individual judgement (which is illegitimate and bound to be wrong). Scientists whose opinions, findings, conclusions go against official beliefs and conclusions in any way (as decided by officials, government and international media) are deluded or corrupt.

It may be the case that the state does not have good motives - but I doubt that very much. They probably have good motives, but may not be doing everything correctly in a rapidly evolving situation. However, how do you think society can respond collectively to the pandemic without harnessing the state apparatus and resources? Do you think it would be feasible for some private sector organisation to harness people collectively to respond better than what the state is doing, or do you think it would be better if it was left to everyone individually to made up their own mind what measures (or none) to take to combat the pandemic?

Quantum Baloney · 03-03-2021 02:43PM

RobTheLad wrote: »

This is from our public broadcaster folks

https://twitter.com/rtenews/status/1367082250001645573?s=20

This is a perfect microcosm of how we're all being treated. University students have to write 2000 apologetic words on the chalkboard, working people are told they're being punished for the actions of a naughty child in their classroom, next we'll all be getting the belt of a ruler on our buttocks, or have to appear for detention in the local community hall.

03-03-2021 02:45PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

democracy by Twitter polls.

Twitter is a hellsite and politicians should be prohibited from using it in their professional capacity as representatives and candidates.

280 characters is not enough for any sort of discussion or communication you'd want from them, and there is no reason they should be allowed to preference one global social network over others the way they do. Particularly when those social networks can (and do) de facto shut people out of the conversation.

If they're that desperate to interact with their constituencies—and I rather suspect that they are not—they have the means to set up a local communications site that is more fit for purpose.

Silentcorner · 03-03-2021 02:51PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Very easily really.

Leo is likewise led by social media "trends" and outrage. Harris is only following his boss's example.

McEntee is another one of the same ilk.

The future of FG right there folks.. democracy by Twitter polls.

And Fg wonder why they have just had a disaster of an election when we were at full employment at the time....

The leadership is too young, too inexperienced in life, who have succumb to the allure of twitter and all the emotive nonsense that goes with twitter, at a time when Fg should have a very bright future, they are looking at a looming disaster and they can't see it coming!!

This is a big part of our problem, why we have endured the most costly lock down in Europe...we have no leaders!

Hellrazer · 03-03-2021 02:54PM

Quantum Baloney wrote: »

This is a perfect microcosm of how we're all being treated. University students have to write 2000 apologetic words on the chalkboard, working people are told they're being punished for the actions of a naughty child in their classroom, next we'll all be getting the belt of a ruler on our buttocks, or have to appear for detention in the local community hall.

I wrote my own letter to them.

Dear Mr Harris, Holohan, Varadkar, Donnelly and Martin,

Ive been asked to write you a letter for breaking the covid 19 rules.

I was a bad boy last week. It was my daughters birthday and I had 4 people over for some drinks and food. I realize that this goes against the covid 19 regulations and for that I apologize.

Two Sundays ago I travelled 5.2km to bring my dogs for a walk. Again I apologize for breaking the rules by 0.2kms

On Saturday I attended a great get together in Dublin City centre which was great fun. There were even fireworks going off and I thought the lock down had ended and everyone was celebrating.

This weekend I will stay within my 5km and try to keep to the rules but I cant guarantee that I wont have a meaningful St Patricks Day - I heard there is another firework display on St Patricks day aswell.

growleaves · 03-03-2021 02:55PM

Pdoghue wrote: »

It may be the case that the state does not have good motives - but I doubt that very much. They probably have good motives, but may not be doing everything correctly in a rapidly evolving situation. However, how do you think society can respond collectively to the pandemic without harnessing the state apparatus and resources? Do you think it would be feasible for some private sector organisation to harness people collectively to respond better than what the state is doing, or do you think it would be better if it was left to everyone individually made up their own mind what measures (or none) to take to combat the pandemic?

Too many people have said that they are subordinating their decision-making to the state apparatus of experts.

This allows people to support lockdowns while attempting to evade moral responsibility for their choices since they pretend it is a technical matter which is out of their hands.

This is significant because there is no way that things like enforced isolation and banning trade can be considered neutral and objective matters to any honest person.

I'm not talking about off-loading responsibility and authority onto private sector actors, I'm saying that the mass of people should make it clear that they reject harmful and immoral measures first of all and then (if necessary) will go-along with proportionate measures that fall short of being damaging.

To take the point about the government's motives. I don't really see anyone strongly defending the integrity of various government ministers. We are used to these people - many of them are habitual liars.

Instead we create a null hypothesis where anyone who holds any sort of official position must be a dispassionate technocrat because ill-motivated behaviour is supposedly irrational. This is the thinking of a child: there are no bad people.

In fact powerful interests are consolidating wealth - all over the world assets are being bought up cheaply by billionaires and corporations (part of the benefit to them of negative rates). Many ordinary people are being slowly impoverished.

SAMTALK · 03-03-2021 02:55PM

growleaves wrote: »

There seems to be a small but surprising number of people who do enjoy lockdowns. I don't think they are particularly representative but have seen posts on boards and facebook where people claim they were happy to have an escape from social obligations. In a thread on whether posters wanted to go to heaven after they died, a few posters claimed they would only want to go if they could be alone there for eternity. Some people do prefer prolonged aloneless that though that must be fairly rare.

However what's far more common is deference to the technostructure, which goes like this: The experts/Government/the European Central Bank are the people who understand these things. They have competence and no reason to not have good motives (notice the double negative, phrased that way on purpose since that is how the argument is ultimately understood) therefore we must do everything they say and there is no need for individual judgement (which is illegitimate and bound to be wrong). Scientists whose opinions, findings, conclusions go against official beliefs and conclusions in any way (as decided by officials, government and international media) are deluded or corrupt.

This is the way with everything. People don't agree with each other all the time

You might agree with what one scientist says and I agree with another. Which of us is right ? Which of them is right ?

It's not like we are the only country going through this

_Kaiser_ · 03-03-2021 02:56PM

Silentcorner wrote: »

And Fg wonder why they have just had a disaster of an election when we were at full employment at the time....

The leadership is too young, too inexperienced in life, who have succumb to the allure of twitter and all the emotive nonsense that goes with twitter, at a time when Fg should have a very bright future, they are looking at a looming disaster and they can't see it coming!!

This is a big part of our problem, why we have endured the most costly lock down in Europe...we have no leaders!

I've said it before, but for all his faults, you can't imagine CJH being dictated to by Holohan or his ilk.

Even Bertie probably wouldn't have countenanced it for as long as the current crowd have.

Silentcorner · 03-03-2021 03:00PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I've said it before, but for all his faults, you can't imagine CJH being dictated to by Holohan or his ilk.

Even Bertie probably wouldn't have countenanced it for as long as the current crowd have.

I've said the same, and like you I am no fan of his.

Could you imagine what Haughey would have said to the Health Official who told him he was going to warn the public about the dangers of passing the gravy boat during Christmas Dinner?

Hellrazer · 03-03-2021 03:04PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I've said it before, but for all his faults, you can't imagine CJH being dictated to by Holohan or his ilk.

Even Bertie probably wouldn't have countenanced it for as long as the current crowd have.

Its a weak , weak government we have in power. None of them can make a decision.

_Kaiser_ · 03-03-2021 03:06PM

Silentcorner wrote: »

I've said the same, and like you I am no fan of his.

Could you imagine what Haughey would have said to the Health Official who told him he was going to warn the public about the dangers of passing the gravy boat during Christmas Dinner?

Wouldn't have happened. No-one would have dared approach him with such nonsense.

The other thing about those days too of course was there was no social media and bored press with virtual column inches to fill, so the hysteria would never have gotten to the level it has.

People would have just gotten on with it and those at actual risk would have been encouraged to take responsibility for that and their safety.

Hellrazer · 03-03-2021 03:13PM

In all fairness when Leo did try to stick up to NPHET he was made a show of and completely admonished for it.

After that he kinda lost his bite and was put back in his box.
I really thought he was different but hes no better that the rest of them.

growleaves · 03-03-2021 03:13PM

SAMTALK wrote: »

[/B]

This is the way with everything. People don't agree with each other all the time

You might agree with what one scientist says and I agree with another. Which of us is right ? Which of them is right ?

It's not like we are the only country going through this

I take your point but since day one scientists with opposing views were dismissed in the crudest terms. I found it shocking.

It seems routine now that people pro or anti lockdown have a grudge against their least well-liked scientist but that is because it is so politicised now.

On the main thread one poster called the epidemiologist Sunetra Gupta a "c*nt" and others said they understood why her husband divorced her.

People have also sometimes made their opposition to NPHET quite personal in colourful terms, out of frustration.

One of my main points is that since we know separating families and forcing people out of work is very wrong it isn't solely a scientific matter. It was initially justified based on Great Black Plague scenarios of horrible mass death.

Now its just "hey we still have 300+ 'cases', better lock down for another 18 months to be safe". Its not defensible imo.

growleaves · 03-03-2021 03:17PM

It's not like we are the only country going through this

The scale of what has been implemented is just another get-out clause to evade responsibility.

Individual people have choices to make about what they accept as reasonable. As do singular states like Sweden, Taiwan, Florida, Texas, the Dakotas etc.

Silentcorner · 03-03-2021 03:19PM

Hellrazer wrote: »

In all fairness when Leo did try to stick up to NPHET he was made a show of and completely admonished for it.

After that he kinda lost his bite and was put back in his box.
I really thought he was different but hes no better that the rest of them.

He did to be fair.

This was the moment that I have often alluded to, I think this was a critical moment in our State's handling of this crisis.

A rogue Health Official, who was not due back into work until the following day, made a decision to undermine the Government, and NPHET and went straight to the National Media who in turn put fear into the population on a Sunday evening.

Varadkar should have had the conviction to back Martin into a corner, either Houlihan goes, or we go...that is what it required, you simply cannot have a health official (Houlihan) behaving in that manner, it is reckless and reveals a man who has let the power get the better of him.

The Government lost what little control it had of this whole debacle that day and we have all suffered unduly as a consequence and will continue to do until Martin puts on his big boy pants!

_Kaiser_ · 03-03-2021 03:25PM

Silentcorner wrote: »

He did to be fair.

This was the moment that I have often alluded to, I think this was a critical moment in our State's handling of this crisis.

A rogue Health Official, who was not due back into work until the following day, made a decision to undermine the Government, and NPHET and went straight to the National Media who in turn put fear into the population on a Sunday evening.

Varadkar should have had the conviction to back Martin into a corner, either Houlihan goes, or we go...that is what it required, you simply cannot have a health official (Houlihan) behaving in that manner, it is reckless and reveals a man who has let the power get the better of him.

The Government lost what little control it had of this whole debacle that day and we have all suffered unduly as a consequence and will continue to do until Martin puts on his big boy pants!

Unfortunately that won't happen. Martin's only goal was to not be the only FF leader not to be Taoiseach - in the same way as Enda's determination to be the only FG Taoiseach to get a second term led us to a weak Government including characters like Ross and Zappone.

Micheal hasn't yet grasped the impact his (in)actions will have on his notions of a legacy though.

PTH2009 · 03-03-2021 03:25PM

Silentcorner wrote: »

He did to be fair.

This was the moment that I have often alluded to, I think this was a critical moment in our State's handling of this crisis.

A rogue Health Official, who was not due back into work until the following day, made a decision to undermine the Government, and NPHET and went straight to the National Media who in turn put fear into the population on a Sunday evening.

Varadkar should have had the conviction to back Martin into a corner, either Houlihan goes, or we go...that is what it required, you simply cannot have a health official (Houlihan) behaving in that manner, it is reckless and reveals a man who has let the power get the better of him.

The Government lost what little control it had of this whole debacle that day and we have all suffered unduly as a consequence and will continue to do until Martin puts on his big boy pants!

Then Leo made up with Dr Tony and reminded us they are on the same team.Bar the Xmas mess up all NPHET advice is been taken and has shown there the real bosses

Nothing stopping any NPHET member coming out and going rouge if there advice is not considered

03-03-2021 03:25PM

Silentcorner wrote: »

The Government lost what little control it had of this whole debacle that day and we have all suffered unduly as a consequence and will continue to do until Martin puts on his big boy pants!

Not a chance of that happening. Michael Martin is a political coward who defers all responsibility for the management of this pandemic to Chairman Holohan.

hynesie08 · 03-03-2021 03:28PM

PTH2009 wrote: »

Then Leo made up with Dr Tony and reminded us they are on the same team.Bar the Xmas mess up all NPHET advice is been taken and has shown there the real bosses

Nothing stopping any NPHET member coming out and going rouge if there advice is not considered

I'd go red if people weren't listening to me as well.

Silentcorner · 03-03-2021 03:32PM

hynesie08 wrote: »

I'd go red if people weren't listening to me as well.

They are paid to advice, not run the country.

Hellrazer · 03-03-2021 03:36PM

PTH2009 wrote: »

Then Leo made up with Dr Tony and reminded us they are on the same team.Bar the Xmas mess up all NPHET advice is been taken and has shown there the real bosses

Nothing stopping any NPHET member coming out and going rouge if there advice is not considered

I said it previously - NPHET should not be given any air time. They should not be allowed to make announcements or have press conferences.

The only people that should communicate the days figures etc should be the government. By giving nphet airtime, press conferences all we have done is massaged their egos and made them seem infallible.

_Kaiser_ · 03-03-2021 03:40PM

Hellrazer wrote: »

I said it previously - NPHET should not be given any air time. They should not be allowed to make announcements or have press conferences.

The only people that should communicate the days figures etc should be the government. By giving nphet airtime, press conferences all we have done is massaged their egos and made them seem infallible.

As well as allow them to undermine the Government in advance of the next-stage decisions being made, and adding to the general ar of confusion, worry and frustration among the public.

The problem now is that Micheal and his merry men are in no rush to stand up to Tony and co, and disbanding NPHET and returning them to relative obscurity will be a huge task in itself.

Hellrazer · 03-03-2021 03:47PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

As well as allow them to undermine the Government in advance of the next-stage decisions being made, and adding to the general ar of confusion, worry and frustration among the public.

The problem now is that Micheal and his merry men are in no rush to stand up to Tony and co, and disbanding NPHET and returning them to relative obscurity will be a huge task in itself.

So true - Nphet will be a part of Irish society and politics for a long time to come.

Relaxation of Restrictions, Part IX *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

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Relaxation of Restrictions, Part IX Read OP For Mod Warnings