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Relaxation of Restrictions, Part IX *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

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Comments

  • #2252
    Boggles
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 42,566 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    newuser99999 wrote: »
    €350 a week to cover her own bills since she’s out of work and to cover the expenses of the business. What difference does income support for the employees make to her? She could’ve just let them go.

    That seems like “a raft” of support alright

    She is entitled to a percentage of her turnover, not profits, turnover.

    The difference income supports means is that when she starts trading again she gets a portion of her employees wages paid by the state, as she would have pre November if her turnover had dropped by a certain percentage.

    But again that is all moot since she has not received any income or business supports since October.

    So the pertinent question remains, why not?


  • #2253
    timmyntc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,636 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    Graham wrote: »
    engage, educate, encourage, enforce

    I think you have some very strange notions of a 'police state'.

    "policing by consent" does not excuse our draconian lockdown measures.

    Lockdowns were never part of any health depts pandemic playbook before covid - its a nuclear option that was only copied because we saw the CCCP doing same.


  • #2254
    francogarbanzo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 365 ✭✭francogarbanzo


    Graham wrote: »
    engage, educate, encourage, enforce

    I think you have some very strange notions of a 'police state'.

    From Wikipedia:

    "A police state is a government that exercises power through the power of the police force. Originally, a police state was a state regulated by a civil administration, but since the beginning of the 20th century it has "taken on an emotional and derogatory meaning" by describing an undesirable state of living characterized by the overbearing presence of civil authorities.[1] The inhabitants of a police state may experience restrictions on their mobility, or on their freedom to express or communicate political or other views, which are subject to police monitoring or enforcement."

    The fact that it's even close enough should be concerning. A good indicator of whether or you may or may not be living in a police state could be something like, "can I go about my business, say, drive my wife to a doctor's appointment, without having to interact with the police?"


  • #2255
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,643 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    timmyntc wrote: »
    "policing by consent" does not excuse our draconian lockdown measures.

    It certainly doesn't make us anything approaching a police state.

    While on paper our restrictions might look quite stringent, the reality is our light touch approach to enforcement is about as far from draconian as you could possibly get.


  • #2256
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,643 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    francogarbanzo wrote: »
    From Wikipedia:

    "A police state is a government that exercises power through the power of the police force.

    Thank you. Definitely not here then.


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  • #2257
    francogarbanzo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 365 ✭✭francogarbanzo


    Graham wrote: »
    Thank you. Definitely not here then.

    Interesting! I thought that the police checkpoints around the roads were enforcing a months-long restriction on movement enacted by the state but I must have been mistaken.


  • #2258
    Chomper.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 67 ✭✭Chomper.


    Graham wrote: »
    It certainly doesn't make us anything approaching a police state.

    While on paper our restrictions might look quite stringent, the reality is our light touch approach to enforcement is about as far from draconian as you could possibly get.

    I'd say it's more midway and a bit beyond draconian


  • #2259
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,643 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    francogarbanzo wrote: »
    Interesting! I thought that the police checkpoints around the roads were enforcing a months-long restriction on movement enacted by the state but I must have been mistaken.

    read back through this thread at the numbers ignoring the restrictions and you'd know you were mistaken.


  • #2260
    agoodpunt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 541 ✭✭✭agoodpunt


    yes but what is more worring we bent over and took it no opp voice and wait till they impose the tax for it only on the tax payer of course and those with savings who have already paid tax twice over on that
    What will they call this something social like the usc but will be bourne by those who never miss a mortgage payment


  • #2261
    everlast75
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,176 ✭✭✭✭everlast75


    Using hyperbole like "police state" doesn't help anyone make their case imho

    Elect a clown... Expect a circus



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  • #2262
    Chomper.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 67 ✭✭Chomper.


    Graham wrote: »
    read back through this thread at the numbers ignoring the restrictions and you'd know you were mistaken.

    I'm not sure I agree

    The Gardai were out enforcing restrictions on movement

    Whether or not people complied is a different matter imo


  • #2263
    timmyntc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,636 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    Chomper. wrote: »
    I'm not sure I agree

    The Gardai were out enforcing restrictions on movement

    Whether or not people complied is a different matter imo

    A very incompetent police state, but the intent is still there.

    It's kind of reassuring in a way, knowing that Irish govt is so incompetent to not be able to put a proper police state in effect. An "Irish" police state is what it is.


  • #2264
    BoatMad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    I really think NPHET is determined to its rule by diktat permanently

    It’s recent letter to Stephen Donnelly warns that we cannot be sure of the outcome of vaccinations

    This is a lie , quite frankly. Because right next door we literally have millions of case studies three months ahead of us to study.

    Hence we can easily foretell what will happen once we achieve certain levels of vaccination , because we can directly compare ourselves to the U.K. experience

    This would allow to dramatically accelerate removal of restrictions by reference to watching as the U.K. will have slowly cast off their restrictions. We can move much much quicker as a result

    We really need to Re inject political control or else remove the government and ask NPHET to stand for election


  • #2265
    BoatMad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    everlast75 wrote: »
    Using hyperbole like "police state" doesn't help anyone make their case imho

    You think that using the police to enforce draconian restrictions on movement isn’t a very definition of a police state ???

    I’d hate to see your idea of one


  • #2266
    Boggles
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 42,566 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    BoatMad wrote: »
    I really think NPHET is determined to its rule by diktat permanently

    It’s recent letter to Stephen Donnelly warns that we cannot be sure of the outcome of vaccinations

    This is a lie , quite frankly. Because right next door we literally have millions of case studies three months ahead of us to study.

    Hence we can easily foretell what will happen once we achieve certain levels of vaccination , because we can directly compare ourselves to the U.K. experience

    This would allow to dramatically accelerate removal of restrictions by reference to watching as the U.K. will have slowly cast off their restrictions. We can move much much quicker as a result

    We really need to Re inject political control or else remove the government and ask NPHET to stand for election

    How in the name of God is that a lie?


  • #2267
    BoatMad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    treade1 wrote: »
    The 5km travel ban doesn't bother me because I am free to travel beyond it with a reasonable excuse. There are very few checkpoints about anyway and most of the time you are waved through.

    What bothers me is schools closed, all sport for kids and adults cancelled, restaurants and gastropubs closed, shops closed. I'm not really a pub drinker anymore so don't miss the pubs.

    So all your “ reasonable excuses “ are perfectly legitimate or you are happy to routinely break the laws of the state.

    This is like a stasi state , we and extra-ordinary vicious lockdown by international stanfards , where ordinary citizens have to routinely break the laws simply to move around their own country.

    Not to mention that public health is simply not an excuse to remove civil rights and liberties, many such liberties cost this country a huge blood sacrifice and yet here we are throwing them away

    The sickness of some is not the only deciding factor in the freedoms of a population. It never has been and it shouldn’t be so now. We cannot protect people from illness or even death , all we can do is make some steps to facilitate the ill , such as the provision of medical services and what not. Even that is resource limited , after that humans die anyway every day. It’s as natural as breathing


  • #2268
    MOH
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,471 ✭✭✭MOH


    Some people seem convinced that anyone who questions about the restrictions is some kind of 5G spouting, tinfoil hat-wearing, anti-vaxer.

    Guess that applies to the State's human rights watchdog too.
    The State’s human rights watchdog has raised concerns about Covid-19 restrictions, saying aspects of how laws have been formulated, enforced and communicated “raise significant human rights and equality concerns”.

    The Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission report argues there is a “black hole” for considering the impact of regulations on human rights, with the delegation of powers to the Minister for Health making it “difficult to maintain effective democratic oversight”.
    Problems in the law-making process “are exacerbated by the relationship between Nphet and the Government”. At times Nphet acted as “de facto decision-maker”, and there is a risk that public health advice “captures the whole decision-making process”. “This would be problematic both because important decisions should be made by democratically accountable actors and because Nphet has no particular expertise in human rights and equality.”
    Nphet “remains a powerful actor in the decision-making process in a way that diminishes attention to human rights and equality concerns” as it “lacks the expertise”.
    It finds parliamentary oversight of laws and regulation relating to Covid “has been lacking in several respects”, and raises rule-of-law concerns, arguing some regulations have not been published before coming into force and that “official government statements have provided misleading accounts of what the law requires”.

    There has been a tendency “to blur the distinction between the regulations and public health advice, making the content of the law unclear” which is “contrary both to domestic legal principles as well as foundational principles of international human rights law”.


    RTE article since the IT one may be paywalled
    he IHREC has pointed out that separate to this research, it warned Oireachtas members last September that emergency legislation related to Covid-19 needed to be used exceptionally, and subjected to strict human rights standards and oversight.


  • #2269
    Hector Savage
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,809 ✭✭✭Hector Savage


    Stheno wrote: »
    The article says a survey in December indicated 40% would not want a vaccine?


    That has been increasing dramatically over the last few months where people have learned that they are safe.

    Closer to 80% now.


  • #2270
    BoatMad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    Boggles wrote: »
    How in the name of God is that a lie?

    Before we do not have to wait to slowly ease restrictions , we can directly see the effect in the U.K. hence we simply don’t have to follow their slow easing of restrictions ( they have to because they are out in front , we are three months behind and can see the effect of U.K. vaccinations ) hence we can simply act immediately at various vaccinations percentages by reference to the U.K. experience

    Hence it’s a “ lie” to suggest we can’t foretell the effects of the vaccines. We can , just look at the U.K.


  • #2271
    everlast75
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,176 ✭✭✭✭everlast75


    BoatMad wrote: »
    You think that using the police to enforce draconian restrictions on movement isn’t a very definition of a police state ???

    I’d hate to see your idea of one

    Definition - "A police state is a government that exercises power through the power of the police force. Originally, a police state was a state regulated by a civil administration, but since the beginning of the 20th century it has "taken on an emotional and derogatory meaning" by describing an undesirable state of living characterized by the overbearing presence of civil authorities."

    I presume it is the bold part of this which is being used in this discussion.

    "The inhabitants of a police state may experience restrictions on their mobility," - Agreed. But we are not living in ordinary times. We are living in a global pandemic which ran unchecked in various countries with huge loss of life.

    And it goes on to state..

    "or on their freedom to express or communicate political or other views, which are subject to police monitoring or enforcement. Political control may be exerted by means of a secret police force that operates outside the boundaries normally imposed by a constitutional state."

    which is clearly not the case in this country.

    As I said, hyperbole.

    Elect a clown... Expect a circus



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  • #2272
    Chomper.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 67 ✭✭Chomper.


    MOH wrote: »
    Some people seem convinced that anyone who questions about the restrictions is some kind of 5G spouting, tinfoil hat-wearing, anti-vaxer.

    Wouldn't surprise me at all to see Governments using Covid Quarantine to restrict immigration from certain states

    It can be used as a blocking tool


  • #2273
    normanoffside
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,234 ✭✭✭✭normanoffside


    pjohnson wrote: »
    And yet you want to go to a rally with a talk from an anti-vaxxer?

    There’s an antivaxxer talking, a herbalist too. Some hippies as well.
    There are rappers performing and other types of musical performers and DJs.

    I don’t agree with the views of all the speakers and I don’t like the music of all of the performers.
    The bigger point is they are all anti-restrictions as am I. The protest is against restrictions and that’s why I and many others will be there.


  • #2274
    BoatMad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    MOH wrote: »
    Some people seem convinced that anyone who questions about the restrictions is some kind of 5G spouting, tinfoil hat-wearing, anti-vaxer.

    Guess that applies to the State's human rights watchdog too.


    The main stream media are entirely to blame. There is no counterpoint being debated , day after day we get only one side rammed home

    We have a gov in the complete grip of NPHET , completely unwilling to think for itself led by a man devoid of ideas and completely unable to act.


  • #2275
    BoatMad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad




    "The inhabitants of a police state may experience restrictions on their mobility," - Agreed. But we are not living in ordinary times. We are living in a global pandemic which ran unchecked in various countries with huge loss of life.

    Loss of life is simply not the sole determination on the control of civil liberties especially loss of life to illness

    Illness is a human condition as is death

    Many countries have controlled Covid using far less draconian measures

    Equally we must accept people will die from disease. The world keeps functioning even if you or I die.

    Are civil liberties valued against preventing illness or death , yes absolutely. You cannot achieve security through restricting freedoms but the public in Ireland have been cowed, beaten and cajoled to accept the sole advice of an elected group of people with no public oversight or inspection

    Maybe it’s a colonial mindset that we as a nation feel we need others to govern us , I am reminded of the same sense of “false calm “ when the Troika were in power , austerity dissent only Re emerged when they left and “ our own “ regained the levers of power.

    Perhaps it’s tine to admit the state has failed and ask the brits back !!!!


  • #2276
    francogarbanzo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 365 ✭✭francogarbanzo


    everlast75 wrote: »
    Definition - "A police state is a government that exercises power through the power of the police force. Originally, a police state was a state regulated by a civil administration, but since the beginning of the 20th century it has "taken on an emotional and derogatory meaning" by describing an undesirable state of living characterized by the overbearing presence of civil authorities."

    I presume it is the bold part of this which is being used in this discussion.

    "The inhabitants of a police state may experience restrictions on their mobility," - Agreed. But we are not living in ordinary times. We are living in a global pandemic which ran unchecked in various countries with huge loss of life.

    And it goes on to state..

    "or on their freedom to express or communicate political or other views, which are subject to police monitoring or enforcement. Political control may be exerted by means of a secret police force that operates outside the boundaries normally imposed by a constitutional state."

    which is clearly not the case in this country.

    As I said, hyperbole.

    It's not hyperbolic just because it doesn't suit each potential quality of a police state. It says or, not and.

    You agreed with the first part, so it's a police state enforcing restrictions that you agree with. At least be intellectually honest.


  • #2277
    everlast75
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,176 ✭✭✭✭everlast75


    BoatMad wrote: »
    Loss of life is simply not the sole determination on the control of civil liberties especially loss of life to illness

    Illness is a human condition as is death

    Many countries have controlled Covid using far less draconian measures

    Equally we must accept people will die from disease. The world keeps functioning even if you or I die.

    Yes.

    The balance here of course is about keeping people safe from covid and the need for the economy to keep going and to minimise the effects of solitude.

    That's not in dispute.

    But to refer to a "police state" in the abstract and not to acknowledge that there is a global pandemic from which hundreds of thousands of people have died from covid which is in our country is selective at best and purposefully hyperbolic at worst.

    Elect a clown... Expect a circus



  • #2278
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 10,049 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    BoatMad wrote: »
    The main stream media are entirely to blame. There is no counterpoint being debated , day after day we get only one side rammed home

    We have a gov in the complete grip of NPHET , completely unwilling to think for itself led by a man devoid of ideas and completely unable to act.

    Except that the posters points were backed up with reference to articles on the national broadcasters website, and what some call the newspaper of record


  • #2279
    Boggles
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 42,566 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    BoatMad wrote: »
    Before we do not have to wait to slowly ease restrictions , we can directly see the effect in the U.K. hence we simply don’t have to follow their slow easing of restrictions ( they have to because they are out in front , we are three months behind and can see the effect of U.K. vaccinations ) hence we can simply act immediately at various vaccinations percentages by reference to the U.K. experience

    Hence it’s a “ lie” to suggest we can’t foretell the effects of the vaccines. We can , just look at the U.K.

    The Deputy Chief Medical Officer of the UK said the exact same thing in a wide ranging interview with Sky News yesterday.

    We can't foretell anything until the data comes through, also the UK have been largely using a different vaccine with a different vaccination program.

    How you have decided what NPHET said in a letter is a lie is utterly bizarre.


  • #2280
    bloopy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,333 ✭✭✭bloopy


    BoatMad wrote: »
    The main stream media are entirely to blame. There is no counterpoint being debated , day after day we get only one side rammed home

    We have a gov in the complete grip of NPHET , completely unwilling to think for itself led by a man devoid of ideas and completely unable to act.

    Because they don't want this to end.
    They have a literal captive audience now. When this ends, they go back to being described as failing legacy media.


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  • #2281
    BoatMad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    everlast75 wrote: »
    Yes.

    The balance here of course is about keeping people safe from covid and the need for the economy to keep going and to minimise the effects of solitude.

    That's not in dispute.

    But to refer to a "police state" in the abstract and not to acknowledge that there is a global pandemic from which hundreds of thousands of people have died from covid which is in our country is selective at best and purposefully hyperbolic at worst.

    It’s nothing to do with the “ economy “. There is ( or should be ) a fundamental right to civil Liberty , such liberties do NOT rely on everyone being well

    Rulers always justify actions “ for the social good” And society sheep walk into situations which take extreme actions to revert.

    One only has to look at the interwar European history to see how fascism took hold by appealing to fear , promising security, blaming “ outsiders” etc. The result was plain to see

    Civil liberties are not cost free. They are paid for by situations where , yes people get ill or die in extreme situations.

    One only has to examine the many human activities that can lead to injury or even death. Yet society allows them to continue both for needed economic activities. But equally many are simply for leisure.


This discussion has been closed.
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