Average V Median wage Ireland?

mariaalice · 22-02-2021 6:35pm

My point is they dont feel like that because mostly they move in a milieu where that sort of income is considered normal or even average where they live, so its has become normalised to them.

22-02-2021 8:15pm

Well if you've €6k (after pension contribs etc) coming into the house with two people working......... mortgage of €1500 ish, maybe creche fees that are similar they won't really be living it up too much on the remaining €3k once they've paid the bills, saved a bit and fed and watered themselves and the kids.

They might be stretched actually if they've a penchant for splurging.

Laura2021 · 22-02-2021 9:37pm

Augeo wrote: »

Well if you've €6k (after pension contribs etc) coming into the house with two people working......... mortgage of €1500 ish, maybe creche fees that are similar they won't really be living it up too much on the remaining €3k once they've paid the bills, saved a bit and fed and watered themselves and the kids.

They might be stretched actually if they've a penchant for splurging.

Doesn't sound like alot when break it down your right but then us €1500 a month the average mortgage payment as everyone is different some pay under 1k .
I agree creche fees is a big bill to pay. Low creche fees would be starting at €1200 a month and go up

Might get lucky and get a child minder which would be alot cheaper or get help from parents if there lucky enough.

Peregrinus · 23-02-2021 2:50am

You also have to bear in mind that the proportion of households that are paying creche fees at any time is quite small, since the period of years during which you have to pay creche fees is relatively short, and your working life is typically 40 years long.

Plus, earnings tend to rise with career progression, which is age-related. You'll be paying creche fees during the earlier part of your working life when, if your career progression is typical, your earnings will be below average. So evaluating average earnings against a need to pay creche fees is a bit distorting; it's not the average situation.

Which comes back to the point mariaalice makes. Most people's assessment of whether they themselves are well-off does not involve comparing their situation with that of someone living on benefit or on a minimum wage job, or comparing it with a millionare with a house on the Vico Road and a flat in Paris for the weekends. They compare their situation with that of their immediate peer group, which tends to be people of the same age, from the same social and economic background. If you're struggling on a starting salary in a relatively junior position to pay creche fees, the likelihood is that many of your friend and colleagues are too, so you think this the normal, typical or average state of affairs. But it isn't normal or typical for most workers right now and, in five or ten years, it won't be normal or typical for you either.

Interested Observer · 23-02-2021 8:00am

I'm not in the top x% of earners but I do spend (between my wife and I) around 10k per year at the moment on childcare and it certainly colours your view of how well off you are. It's hard to imagine us not having to pay the creche to be honest.

23-02-2021 8:49am

The days of professionals paying creche fees at the start of their working lives are long gone.... Most couples earning a half decent salary each don't start families until they are into their 30s. They'd both be the guts of 10 years into their careers.

Anyway I merely offered it as a point, not the average. As others pointed out two average earners aren't in the top 10% of households by income so they aren't particularly well off.

Folk who are genuinely well off are in no doubt about the situation.

Peregrinus · 23-02-2021 9:23am

People tend to be at their most prosperous - as in, have most disposable income - in their late 50s/early 60s. By that time your earnings have peaked, your kids are largely reared, creche fees are but a distant memory, your mortgage payments are based on what you had to borrow to buy a house more than two decades ago and are a fraction of what their children are having to pay on incomes much lower than their parents, etc, etc.

But even then those people typically feel that they may be doing OK, but they don't feel rich, because — again — they compare themselves with their friends and colleagues, who tend to be similarly situated. So they feel that what they are experiencing is normal, average, typical, nothing to get excited about. In fact a middle class couple in this situation are probably among the most secure and prosperous people in the country, and probably more secure and prosperous than they will be at any other time of life.

The bottom line is that, however rich they may be in absolute terms, most people never feel rich because they consider "rich" to mean "richer than they are themselves".

23-02-2021 9:30am

Yeah.... The people you described are average earners, not well off folk IMO.

The people who are well off know they are well off, they know their peers are well off etc etc.

Someone said a couple both on just over average earners wouldn't regard themselves as particularly well off, the reason is simple IMO, they aren't.

mariaalice · 23-02-2021 10:16am

Augeo wrote: »

Yeah.... The people you described are average earners, not well off folk IMO.

The people who are well off know they are well off, they know their peers are well off etc etc.

Someone said a couple both on just over average earners wouldn't regard themselves as particularly well off, the reason is simple IMO, they aren't.

You are slightly missing the point though, it goes back to the OP, if the OP is earning 40k and their partner is earning 35k and everyone around them is the same, their friends and siblings, they are surprised to hear the average is 49k, and think that can't be correct, its the same as the couple who are on 60k each and read that it put them in the top 10% or 15% of earners in Ireland again they think that can't be correct as there are lots in the pharma company or profession office they wok in on more.

So yeah perception is a big part of it.

23-02-2021 10:33am

I'm not missing any point. I'm surprised so many are presumed to not understand what an average is though.

23-02-2021 10:36am

mariaalice wrote: »

......, its the same as the couple who are on 60k each and read that it put them in the top 10% or 15% of earners in Ireland again they think that can't be correct as there are lots in the pharma company or profession office they wok in on more.

So yeah perception is a big part of it.

Who reckons the couple don't realise they are in the top 15% of household incomes?
Folk on those salaries are aware that themselves and their peers are doing OK... They did the work to get there, they realise van drivers, retail workers and many nurses etc are on less then them.

mariaalice · 23-02-2021 11:01am

Augeo wrote: »

Who reckons the couple don't realise they are in the top 15% of household incomes?
Folk on those salaries are aware that themselves and their peers are doing OK... They did the work to get there, they realise van drivers, retail workers and many nurses etc are on less then them.

We will have to agree to disagree, my husband is very maths orientated and loves statistics, the Irish Times on Saturday they have various statistics as an article it's a bit of fun, you would be surprised how wrong you can be about the various statistic of a subject you might know a lot about.

Try this when it all goes back to normal, ask any of your peers who are on100k/ 120k as a couple, without giving them time to think ask them what % of taxpayers are in their income bracket then compare what they said to the correct answer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking,_Fast_and_Slow explains why most people get it wrong and why perception is a big part of it.

Harika · 23-02-2021 11:11am

Peregrinus wrote: »

People tend to be at their most prosperous - as in, have most disposable income - in their late 50s/early 60s. ...
The bottom line is that, however rich they may be in absolute terms, most people never feel rich because they consider "rich" to mean "richer than they are themselves".

People also looking at the bank statement at the end of the month and all wages are gone. Based on your income if you raise your expenses it seems you are not getting better. So 60k can feel like 40k
Eg. 10 year old banger paid off Vs. New PCP finance
Free to air versus Sky full package
Cooking in batches Vs. Weekly takeaway
....
And I agree with the perception, my wife tells me:
Mary & John have two new cars
Anne& Jim upgraded their house
Amy& Bob go to skiing and summer holiday yearly
Why are we not doing all those things? Cause like them we could do one of that but not all together?

23-02-2021 11:19am

mariaalice wrote: »

We will have to agree to disagree, my husband is very maths orientated and loves statistics, the Irish Times on Saturday they have various statistics as an article it's a bit of fun, you would be surprised how wrong you can be about the various statistic of a subject you might know a lot about.

Try this when it all goes back to normal, ask any of your peers who are on100k/ 120k as a couple, without giving them time to think ask them what % of taxpayers are in their income bracket then compare what they said to the correct answer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking,_Fast_and_Slow explains why most people get it wrong and why perception is a big part of it.

None of that is relevant. A couple on a combined 100/120k are not well off, to be in the tops 15% of households you need over €120k.

Who says I have any peers in that bracket? Who says I am in that bracket.

You are wandering off point........... you mentioned "A couple earning say 110k/120k between them would be most likely in the top 10% of earners yet they would be amazed to be thought of as well off" ........ you're facts are incorrect and all views based on incorrect facts are IMO incorrect also

How long someone gets to think about something likely won't change their income or whether they are well off or not.

mariaalice · 23-02-2021 11:28am

Augeo wrote: »

None of that is relevant. A couple on a combined 100/120k are not well off, to be in the tops 15% of households you need over €120k.

Who says I have any peers in that bracket? Who says I am in that bracket.

You are wandering off point........... you mentioned "A couple earning say 110k/120k between them would be most likely in the top 10% of earners yet they would be amazed to be thought of as well off" ........ you're facts are incorrect and all views based on incorrect facts are IMO incorrect also

How long someone gets to think about something likely won't change their income or whether they are well off or not.

Alright, I am wrong.

The above format of the Tax Policy Group has never been reproduced,[28] in April 2018, the OECD and the Irish Revenue Commissioners disclosed that in 2015:[10]

Top 1% of earners, earned over €203,389 in income and paid 19% of personal tax.
Top 10% of earners, earned over €77,530 in income and paid 61% of personal tax.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland#:~:text=Top%2010%25%20of%20earners%2C%20earned,paid%2061%25%20of%20personal%20tax.

ELM327 · 23-02-2021 11:36am

mariaalice wrote: »

Alright, I am wrong.

The above format of the Tax Policy Group has never been reproduced,[28] in April 2018, the OECD and the Irish Revenue Commissioners disclosed that in 2015:[10]

Top 1% of earners, earned over €203,389 in income and paid 19% of personal tax.
Top 10% of earners, earned over €77,530 in income and paid 61% of personal tax.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland#:~:text=Top%2010%25%20of%20earners%2C%20earned,paid%2061%25%20of%20personal%20tax.

This really goes to show the "who pays for what" argument, that the non working lifestyles are funded by the upper 10% , is actually true. A very interesting statistic. As someone who scraped in to the top 10 in 2015, this is one I can relate to.

Cyrus · 23-02-2021 11:38am

I kind of get the point you are making, people that re relatively well off dont realise it because they arent any better off than those around them, for example if you live in an estate of 1m houses and there are 20 of them, your closest neighbours are probably as well off as you are so you arent going to feel especially rich, but on the flip side people with a house hold income of 100k might look at someone with a household income of 200k and think they must be loaded, the reality is they probably arent.

They may have higher mortgage costs, a few kids in child care, both working full time etc etc

as with all things there is a balance to be found between income and contentment.

23-02-2021 11:39am

mariaalice wrote: »

Alright, I am wrong.........

I was clearly referring to your below post........

mariaalice wrote: »

I still think preception has a lot to do with it.

A couple earning say 110k/120k between them would be most likely in the top 10% of earners yet they would be amazed to be thought of as well off.

Just to clarify as you seem to be suggesting otherwise now.

stefanovich · 23-02-2021 11:42am

Cyrus wrote: »

I kind of get the point you are making, people that re relatively well off dont realise it because they arent any better off than those around them, for example if you live in an estate of 1m houses and there are 20 of them, your closest neighbours are probably as well off as you are so you arent going to feel especially rich, but on the flip side people with a house hold income of 100k might look at someone with a household income of 200k and think they must be loaded, the reality is they probably arent.

They may have higher mortgage costs, a few kids in child care, both working full time etc etc

as with all things there is a balance to be found between income and contentment.

And that additional 100K is going to be so heavily taxed... 8% USC plus 40% Income tax.

A lot of wealthy people get the majority of their money from capital gains and dividends. Does "income" include that?

Cyrus · 23-02-2021 11:44am

stefanovich wrote: »

And that additional 100K is going to be so heavily taxed... 8% USC plus 40% Income tax.

A lot of wealthy people get the majority of their money from capital gains and dividends. Does "income" include that?

yes absolutely,

no i think income in most of these terms relates to p60 info.

stefanovich · 23-02-2021 11:46am

Do rich people just leave Ireland?

Eric Cartman · 23-02-2021 11:48am

stefanovich wrote: »

Do rich people just leave Ireland?

yes, once you make over a million a year theres little reason to remain tax resident here,

stefanovich · 23-02-2021 11:56am

Eric Cartman wrote: »

yes, once you make over a million a year theres little reason to remain tax resident here,

It's shame the government doesn't let them keep and spend more of their money in the economy. The government still get their VAT etc

An individual is going to spend their money a lot more careful than this wasteful government.

Another bad side effect is that government spending tends to keep bad businesses afloat.

stefanovich · 23-02-2021 11:57am

And the envious folks out there.. Why should they care if the individual or government spends their money when the government's wastage is so obvious and blatant.

mariaalice · 23-02-2021 11:58am

Number of Irish millionaires rises by 3,000 to nearly 78,000

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/personal-finance/number-of-irish-millionaires-rises-by-3-000-to-nearly-78-000-1.3824256

Does not seem to be any sign of the well of abandoning Ireland.

23-02-2021 11:59am

Any rich Irish people who "leave" are likely to spend quite a bit of time here and will spend a nice few quid.
Plenty of well off folk living here and being taxed handsomely for their endeavours as per the 2015 stat "Top 10% of earners, earned over €77,530 in income and paid 61% of personal tax."

Eric Cartman · 23-02-2021 12:02pm

mariaalice wrote: »

Number of Irish millionaires rises by 3,000 to nearly 78,000

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/personal-finance/number-of-irish-millionaires-rises-by-3-000-to-nearly-78-000-1.3824256

Does not seem to be any sign of the well of abandoning Ireland.

what defines you as a millionaire can be asset, not liquid. Dublin houses being valued at over a million will account for most of that.

There are 'millionaires' on state pensions in Ireland who were lucky enough to buy / inherit a house in the right part of south Dublin.

stefanovich · 23-02-2021 12:07pm

mariaalice wrote: »

Number of Irish millionaires rises by 3,000 to nearly 78,000

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/personal-finance/number-of-irish-millionaires-rises-by-3-000-to-nearly-78-000-1.3824256

Does not seem to be any sign of the well of abandoning Ireland.

All that indicates is that the number rose. Probably due to asset inflation. I wonder what that number would be if we had flat taxation? We'd have millionaires moving here.

23-02-2021 12:09pm

mariaalice wrote: »

Number of Irish millionaires rises by 3,000 to nearly 78,000

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/personal-finance/number-of-irish-millionaires-rises-by-3-000-to-nearly-78-000-1.3824256

Does not seem to be any sign of the well off abandoning Ireland.

As pointed out, being a millionaire and earning €1m/annum are not at all the same thing.

Are you now suggesting to be well off you need to be one of the 78k referred to in that article?

stefanovich · 23-02-2021 12:12pm

Augeo wrote: »

As pointed out, being a millionaire and earning €1m/annum are not at all the same thing.

Are you now suggesting to be well off you need to be one of the 78k referred to in that article?

I've said this before but I'll say it again.

The government wants us all working, kids in a creche getting inferior care and food.

It should pay to have a single income family. The tax credits should be 100% transferable for a start and rate bands should also be shared completely.

Average V Median wage Ireland?

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