Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VIII Read OP For Mod Warnings

PTH2009 · 16-02-2021 11:13PM

J&J J&J J&J

The vaccine getting approved gives more hope of us been out for this hell

NovemberWren · 16-02-2021 11:15PM

growleaves wrote: »

I agree with you but fact is it is easier to find a job in a large country like the UK even if Ireland and the UK are equally in recession. The UK is both much larger and more business-oriented.

and we buy everything they send.

Necro · 16-02-2021 11:42PM

Cork2021 wrote: »

The amount of lockdown merchants on this thread is ridiculous! Are ye that thick?
We cant keep paying people not to work, we can’t keep giving businesses money to keep them closed, this ‘free money’ bollocks is a fallacy.
We’ll all be caught by the short and curlys once this is eventually over!
My father is out of work now and he fuçking hates it and doesn’t need to be off work because some pansies are worried about a variant that isn’t even here or is here and they haven’t a fûcking clue that it is. There’s 1000’s of variants of every virus! AIDS is an example and so is influenza.
By the looks of things a good lot on here have been brainwashed by the brains trust of Staines,Ryan,Killeen, Mcdonkey!
Zero covid bullshît!!

Mod:

Threadbanned - way over the line of civil discourse

endacl · 17-02-2021 12:11AM

completedit wrote: »

I have this awful existential feeling of dread of time just slipping away. Life is precious. I think it's so desperately unfair that the effects of this K economy will show itself when we recover. I find that extremely unsettling tbh. I'm 31 and have fallen behind. I couldn't afford a year like this. A whole year has derailed my trajectory and my potential to redeem myself. How many countless more are now like me who suddenly find themselves in their 30s and further behind. Tragic. Absolutely tragic.

I think that's a common feeling.

I'm in an extremely fortunate position. I've 16 years on you. I'm a teacher, and have been working online from the start. The area I'm in never went back 'in the building'. I teach part time, and my other self-employed work is booming. Also online.

I don't think (from the safety of my Ivory Tower...) that its all about career and progression though. This is time we're not getting back. Any of us. I can count on one hand the people I've met more than a couple of times this year. This is the longest unbroken stretch of time I've spent in Ireland since I was 17. It's by far the longest stretch I've ever spent at home in Dublin. I've been beyond my 5k once since this lockdown began. That was to drive herself in to her essential job when her car was off the road. I met 12 checkpoints between the in-and-out trips. I play music, which to me means meeting people, and playing with them. The instruments stay mostly in the cases these days. I might take them out to blow the dust off the odd time, but the times are getting odder.

This isn't natural, no matter what side of the 'lock down forever/kill all the grannies' debate you might be on. I fall very much in the 'I'll be grand' column, in all the 'measurable' ways, but I'm not sure I will. I'm not complaining about lockdown. I'm following the recommendations and getting on with it, but it's not OK. We've all fallen behind in ways that won't become clear for years to come.

JRant · 17-02-2021 12:31AM

Knex* wrote: »

This thread is fairly emotionally charged, which is fair all things considered. What a ****ty situation the world has endured this past year.

I don't think there's any easy answers. There's no solution here, only trade offs.

Until we can increase our vaccine supply, it seems like it's all about balancing the unknowns. The unknown impact of the virus for anyone who catches it, both in short term severe cases or long covid. The unknown impact on the economy, businesses, relationships or mental health. Which will be more severe and what way do we balance it? What do we prioritise?

Everyone will have different opinions, perspective and priorities depending on their own situation and experience, I guess. Sadly, we have people suffering on all sides. Whether directly or indirectly from this virus. Physical, emotional, financial and otherwise.

I genuinely don't know what the right thing to do is, and am glad I don't have to make the decisions.

One thing that has caught my eye reading this thread, though, is the notion that our politicians actually want us all locked in and the economy shut down. To what benefit? I'm the first one to say I think the messaging from the Government has been shocking, but there is zero chance that every single person in this country doesn't want this to end as soon as possible. They 100% do. You'd have to be inhuman not to. Yet somehow that line of thought is gaining traction, and I really don't understand it.

I do wish they'd do a better job at focusing on the positive of the vaccines, and stop scaremongering about the variants when it's pretty clear that current vaccines will suffice for known variants. People have enough **** in their lives without adding unnecessary pressure and quenching hope.

But I doubt anybody in power deliberately wants to extend this any longer than necessary. I just don't see what they'd gain?

It's not that they want to lock the entire country down at all. It's purely that they don't want to be the one pushing for a lifting of restrictions, sticking their head above the parapet if you will. Much easier to go along with it and in a lot of cases push for even more of it.

We have the completely absurd situation where the loony left, like PBP, are calling for even more restrictions on personal freedoms and stricter Garda/State powers amd cheering on the shutdown of the majority of construction in the middle of a housing crisis.

The collective that makes up the Dail have completely lost the plot at this stage.

Knex* · 17-02-2021 12:35AM

Had deleted my post but seeing JRant's reply to original above, will repost here.

This thread is fairly emotionally charged, which is fair all things considered. What a ****ty situation the world has endured this past year.

I don't think there's any easy answers. There's no solution here, only trade offs.

Until we can increase our vaccine supply, it seems like it's all about balancing the unknowns. The unknown impact of the virus for anyone who catches it, both in short term severe cases or long covid. The unknown impact on the economy, businesses, relationships or mental health. Which will be more severe and what way do we balance it? What do we prioritise?

Everyone will have different opinions, perspective and priorities depending on their own situation and experience, I guess. Sadly, we have people suffering on all sides. Whether directly or indirectly from this virus. Physical, emotional, financial and otherwise.

I genuinely don't know what the right thing to do is, and am glad I don't have to make the decisions.

One thing that has caught my eye reading this thread, though, is the notion that our politicians actually want us all locked in and the economy shut down. To what benefit? I'm the first one to say I think the messaging from the Government has been shocking, but there is zero chance that every single person in this country doesn't want this to end as soon as possible. They 100% do. You'd have to be inhuman not to. Yet somehow that line of thought is gaining traction, and I really don't understand it.

I do wish they'd do a better job at focusing on the positive of the vaccines, and stop scaremongering about the variants when it's pretty clear that current vaccines will suffice for known variants. People have enough **** in their lives without adding unnecessary pressure and quenching hope.

But I doubt anybody in power deliberately wants to extend this any longer than necessary. I just don't see what they'd gain?

TobyHolmes · 17-02-2021 12:47AM

Knex* wrote: »

Had deleted my post but seeing JRant's reply to original above, will repost here.

This thread is fairly emotionally charged, which is fair all things considered. What a ****ty situation the world has endured this past year.

I don't think there's any easy answers. There's no solution here, only trade offs.

Until we can increase our vaccine supply, it seems like it's all about balancing the unknowns. The unknown impact of the virus for anyone who catches it, both in short term severe cases or long covid. The unknown impact on the economy, businesses, relationships or mental health. Which will be more severe and what way do we balance it? What do we prioritise?

Everyone will have different opinions, perspective and priorities depending on their own situation and experience, I guess. Sadly, we have people suffering on all sides. Whether directly or indirectly from this virus. Physical, emotional, financial and otherwise.

I genuinely don't know what the right thing to do is, and am glad I don't have to make the decisions.

One thing that has caught my eye reading this thread, though, is the notion that our politicians actually want us all locked in and the economy shut down. To what benefit? I'm the first one to say I think the messaging from the Government has been shocking, but there is zero chance that every single person in this country doesn't want this to end as soon as possible. They 100% do. You'd have to be inhuman not to. Yet somehow that line of thought is gaining traction, and I really don't understand it.

I do wish they'd do a better job at focusing on the positive of the vaccines, and stop scaremongering about the variants when it's pretty clear that current vaccines will suffice for known variants. People have enough **** in their lives without adding unnecessary pressure and quenching hope.

But I doubt anybody in power deliberately wants to extend this any longer than necessary. I just don't see what they'd gain?

There is alot of scaremongering going on - but especially from media and social media. i took a few weeks off - stopped listening to the news, didnt log on to social media - what a breath of peace- there was no faceless person who sent words that solicited a reaction within me. i think we should all take a break from the machine from time to time and just recollect our thoughts and focus on the day to day and have a few dreams about the future, but the whole media circus going on is traumatising us all even more- and it needs to stop.

46 Long · 17-02-2021 02:28AM

ingo1984 wrote: »

They'll bring in a Covid recovery tax. Bit like the USC after the financial crash.

They'll try, but it will be very, very difficult to sell it to the electorate. Sinn Fein are waiting in the wings with magical money trees and could easily sweep into power at the next GE on the back of a hated new tax. My guess would be a modest tax increase from FF/FG combined with slashing services to the bone to make up the shortfall. Maybe sell a few more visas to wealthy Chinese and whoever else will buy them. Water charges and negative interest rates on savings. Pascal might loot the auld pensions again if he can get away with it. Grim times ahead.

aziz · 17-02-2021 02:47AM

[QUOTE=46 Long;116309169]They'll try, but it will be very, very difficult to sell it to the electorate. Sinn Fein are waiting in the wings with magical money trees and could easily sweep into power at the next GE on the back of a hated new tax. My guess would be a modest tax increase from FF/FG combined with slashing services to the bone to make up the shortfall. Maybe sell a few more visas to wealthy Chinese and whoever else will buy them. Water charges and negative interest rates on savings. Pascal might loot the auld pensions again if he can get away with it. Grim times ahead.[/QUOTE]

We will have no say in it and will just have to accept it,same as the USC

JRant · 17-02-2021 07:54AM

46 Long wrote: »

They'll try, but it will be very, very difficult to sell it to the electorate. Sinn Fein are waiting in the wings with magical money trees and could easily sweep into power at the next GE on the back of a hated new tax. My guess would be a modest tax increase from FF/FG combined with slashing services to the bone to make up the shortfall. Maybe sell a few more visas to wealthy Chinese and whoever else will buy them. Water charges and negative interest rates on savings. Pascal might loot the auld pensions again if he can get away with it. Grim times ahead.

The magic money tree schtick can never be used to describe SF again by any of the major parties. FFG have shown a remarkable ability to use these very trees over the past 12 months. Over 11 billion in income support alone since this began and increasing by the week. All this to pay people not to work by a super conservative government terrified into inaction.

We also had Leo tell us we will grow our way out of this. Great in theory but when you've completely lockdown a country for 20 weeks the previous year and this entire year to date then growth is a fallacy. Add in to that negative interest rates and the real possibility of deflation we'll be looking at a long road back for Irish businesses.

We can turn the economy around but only if we start the process sooner rather than later. If they what till after Easter or later to lift them we will see a large number of permanent job losses and destroy any shred of confidence required to get new businesses up and run.

I'm cautiously optimistic that we can get back up to pre COVID levels in 5/7 but it's going to be bleak in the intervening years.

Gael23 · 17-02-2021 08:20AM

completedit wrote: »

I have this awful existential feeling of dread of time just slipping away. Life is precious. I think it's so desperately unfair that the effects of this K economy will show itself when we recover. I find that extremely unsettling tbh. I'm 31 and have fallen behind. I couldn't afford a year like this. A whole year has derailed my trajectory and my potential to redeem myself. How many countless more are now like me who suddenly find themselves in their 30s and further behind. Tragic. Absolutely tragic.

That’s one perspective but I’m 30 soon and trying to see it another way,.I realised I was gay around 3 years ago, late I know but that’s off point. A couple of months before this started I went about accessing some resources to help process things a matter of weeks before Covid hit I started 1:1 counselling so I’m saying I’m using this time to deal with some stuff and if/when life goes back to normal I can get back in the right path to being me

Idbatterim · 17-02-2021 08:32AM

Zero chance water charges make a comeback, after covid, water charges being used to raise revenue after the last water charge experience? No chance! Vat raised potentially, increased carbon taxes, increased motoring related taxes. They will try not to hit core welfare rates or increase paye or prsi. Hit the lower paid , paying in a pittance in taxes, it would be branded " unfair" , which will dictate government actions, but the insane amount out of the tax net is insane...

There has been reckless mismanagement of the economy for over two decades now, current policy is just a continuation of it. Its endless easiest decision, after easiest decision. It's going to explode at some point financially.

Covid now for the politicians, its take the easy decision now, like a drink, to numb the pain. BUT the hangover they have in store, is going to be horrendous politically, easily worse than allowing a few more deaths a day from not shuttering the economy as much ad they did when cases and deaths were very low.

The state finances will be so bad, like the last bust, it's a chance to address the disgraceful and insane taxation system here, but it wint be touched.

Start with a council tax like in the uk, paid for by all adults in the house, no exceptions. Raise the as good as free " rents" on social housing. Christmas welfare bonus axed for long term unemployment at the very least, just axe it all together preferably...

Twenty euro for gp visit if on medical card. Abolish free transport. No free tv license etc, the entire thing is an absolute farce...

pjohnson · 17-02-2021 08:36AM

Idbatterim wrote: »

Zero chance water charges make a comeback, after covid, water charges being used to raise revenue after the last water charge experience? No chance! Vat raised potentially, increased carbon taxes, increased motoring related taxes. They will try not to hit core welfare rates or increase paye or prsi. Hit the lower paid , paying in a pittance in taxes, it would be branded " unfair" , which will dictate government actions, but the insane amount out of the tax net is insane...

There has been reckless mismanagement of the economy for over two decades now, current policy is just a continuation of it. Its endless easiest decision, after easiest decision. It's going to explode at some point financially.

Covid now for the politicians, its take the easy decision now, like a drink, to numb the pain. BUT the hangover they have in store, is going to be horrendous politically, easily worse than allowing a few more deaths a day from not shuttering the economy as much ad they did when cases and deaths were very low.

The state finances will be so bad, like the last bust, it's a chance to address the disgraceful and insane taxation system here, but it wint be touched.

Start with a council tax like in the uk, paid for by all adults in the house, no exceptions. Raise the as good as free " rents" on social housing. Christmas welfare bonus axed for long term unemployment at the very least, just axe it all together preferably...

Twenty euro fir go visit if on medical card. Abolish free transport. No free tv license etc, the entire thing is an absolute farce...

Kinda sounds like you've stopped wishing for a recession?

Idbatterim · 17-02-2021 08:41AM

hamburgham wrote: »

I’m middle aged and fantasise about leaving all the time.

I remember how before the referendum gay people used say they had to leave the country because they felt they didn’t fit in etc. I feel like that now. I’m repulsed by what’s going on. What’s even worse is the way people I considered myself close to have bought into it, none of them seriously affected of course. This country’s motto should be ‘ I’m alright Jack’.

Rte and the left control the entire agenda, a disgraceful political class too. I'd say a large amount of young and potentially skilled workers will leave here when they can... the last recession was nearly unbearable this country loves misery, its addicted to it..

Idbatterim · 17-02-2021 08:45AM

pjohnson wrote: »

Kinda sounds like you've stopped wishing for a recession?

There will be financial problems one way or another shortly. Then look at the pensions timebomb and endless financial black holes here, welfare, hse, debt repayments, housing costs for government. It's over , at some point, sh1t has to hit the fan again...

I've sorted myself out , saved a good bit over the last few years, nearly debt free. In this banana republic, you dont leave things to chance, nobody can claim ignorance this time round, at how appallingly managed and run this country is ...

JRant · 17-02-2021 09:02AM

Idbatterim wrote: »

Zero chance water charges make a comeback, after covid, water charges being used to raise revenue after the last water charge experience? No chance! Vat raised potentially, increased carbon taxes, increased motoring related taxes. They will try not to hit core welfare rates or increase paye or prsi. Hit the lower paid , paying in a pittance in taxes, it would be branded " unfair" , which will dictate government actions, but the insane amount out of the tax net is insane...

There has been reckless mismanagement of the economy for over two decades now, current policy is just a continuation of it. Its endless easiest decision, after easiest decision. It's going to explode at some point financially.

Covid now for the politicians, its take the easy decision now, like a drink, to numb the pain. BUT the hangover they have in store, is going to be horrendous politically, easily worse than allowing a few more deaths a day from not shuttering the economy as much ad they did when cases and deaths were very low.

The state finances will be so bad, like the last bust, it's a chance to address the disgraceful and insane taxation system here, but it wint be touched.

Start with a council tax like in the uk, paid for by all adults in the house, no exceptions. Raise the as good as free " rents" on social housing. Christmas welfare bonus axed for long term unemployment at the very least, just axe it all together preferably...

Twenty euro for gp visit if on medical card. Abolish free transport. No free tv license etc, the entire thing is an absolute farce...

One thing this pandemic has shown is the amount of people who pay little to no tax on income. The vast majority of income tax is received from a small enough section of society. That needs to change and the tax base needs to be widened and we need more than the current 2 band system. Paying the max tax rate after 34k is scandalous but so is a large proportion of the workforce paying little to no tax.

Those things you mentioned like paying for a GP visit, abolishing free tv licenses and transport are big vote getters with the Grey vote and is never going to happen.

ingo1984 · 17-02-2021 09:09AM

Captain Pillowcase wrote: »

Yes another temporary tax. This will not place people under even more pressure.

No different to 12 years ago. They'll just say its a temporary measure, it's easy to bring in new taxes, harder to get rid of them. Have to finance the debts incurred during the pandemic somehow. Can't really cut costs on an already stretched public service. They won't cut welfare benefits. So only one alternative. Raise taxes.

They reduced VAT to 21% in September until end of this month. Already stated its not being extended and is going back up to 23%. Clue as to where we stand with public finances.

Idbatterim · 17-02-2021 09:43AM

JRant wrote: »

One thing this pandemic has shown is the amount of people who pay little to no tax on income. The vast majority of income tax is received from a small enough section of society. That needs to change and the tax base needs to be widened and we need more than the current 2 band system. Paying the max tax rate after 34k is scandalous but so is a large proportion of the workforce paying little to no tax.

Those things you mentioned like paying for a GP visit, abolishing free tv licenses and transport are big vote getters with the Grey vote and is never going to happen.

They will probably hike non income related taxation, but if they go after income again, many skilled workers between rip off housing and higher taxes will leave here I reckon... listening to doom and gloom here for years, is reason enough to leave, never mind far better quality of life and weather in Australia etc...

I totally agree, they wont touch the things I mention, but that's what they should be doing. Widening the tax net, but that would be hitting " the vulnerable " the taxation system here is a farce

Penfailed · 17-02-2021 10:36AM

Idbatterim wrote: »

They will probably hike non income related taxation, but if they go after income again, many skilled workers between rip off housing and higher taxes will leave here I reckon... listening to doom and gloom here for years, is reason enough to leave, never mind far better quality of life and weather in Australia etc...

I totally agree, they wont touch the things I mention, but that's what they should be doing. Widening the tax net, but that would be hitting " the vulnerable " the taxation system here is a farce

Australians can't even get into Australia at the moment. There's around 40,000 in a queue to get back into the country due to their quarantine regulations.

Russman · 17-02-2021 10:50AM

Knex* wrote: »

Had deleted my post but seeing JRant's reply to original above, will repost here.

This thread is fairly emotionally charged, which is fair all things considered. What a ****ty situation the world has endured this past year.

I don't think there's any easy answers. There's no solution here, only trade offs.

Until we can increase our vaccine supply, it seems like it's all about balancing the unknowns. The unknown impact of the virus for anyone who catches it, both in short term severe cases or long covid. The unknown impact on the economy, businesses, relationships or mental health. Which will be more severe and what way do we balance it? What do we prioritise?

Everyone will have different opinions, perspective and priorities depending on their own situation and experience, I guess. Sadly, we have people suffering on all sides. Whether directly or indirectly from this virus. Physical, emotional, financial and otherwise.

I genuinely don't know what the right thing to do is, and am glad I don't have to make the decisions.

One thing that has caught my eye reading this thread, though, is the notion that our politicians actually want us all locked in and the economy shut down. To what benefit? I'm the first one to say I think the messaging from the Government has been shocking, but there is zero chance that every single person in this country doesn't want this to end as soon as possible. They 100% do. You'd have to be inhuman not to. Yet somehow that line of thought is gaining traction, and I really don't understand it.

I do wish they'd do a better job at focusing on the positive of the vaccines, and stop scaremongering about the variants when it's pretty clear that current vaccines will suffice for known variants. People have enough **** in their lives without adding unnecessary pressure and quenching hope.

But I doubt anybody in power deliberately wants to extend this any longer than necessary. I just don't see what they'd gain?

Excellent post all round.
TBH re the bolded parts, I rationalise it by hoping its just people lashing out, out of frustration and wanting someone to "blame" for the situation the world has found itself in. No right thinking person anywhere would want or wish for things as they are.

francogarbanzo · 17-02-2021 11:36AM

Knex* wrote: »

Had deleted my post but seeing JRant's reply to original above, will repost here.

This thread is fairly emotionally charged, which is fair all things considered. What a ****ty situation the world has endured this past year.

I don't think there's any easy answers. There's no solution here, only trade offs.

Until we can increase our vaccine supply, it seems like it's all about balancing the unknowns. The unknown impact of the virus for anyone who catches it, both in short term severe cases or long covid. The unknown impact on the economy, businesses, relationships or mental health. Which will be more severe and what way do we balance it? What do we prioritise?

Everyone will have different opinions, perspective and priorities depending on their own situation and experience, I guess. Sadly, we have people suffering on all sides. Whether directly or indirectly from this virus. Physical, emotional, financial and otherwise.

I genuinely don't know what the right thing to do is, and am glad I don't have to make the decisions.

One thing that has caught my eye reading this thread, though, is the notion that our politicians actually want us all locked in and the economy shut down. To what benefit? I'm the first one to say I think the messaging from the Government has been shocking, but there is zero chance that every single person in this country doesn't want this to end as soon as possible. They 100% do. You'd have to be inhuman not to. Yet somehow that line of thought is gaining traction, and I really don't understand it.

I do wish they'd do a better job at focusing on the positive of the vaccines, and stop scaremongering about the variants when it's pretty clear that current vaccines will suffice for known variants. People have enough **** in their lives without adding unnecessary pressure and quenching hope.

But I doubt anybody in power deliberately wants to extend this any longer than necessary. I just don't see what they'd gain?

I agree they probably don't want this to go on any longer.

If I had to guess, it's a sunk cost issue - they can't change strategy without admitting the strategy was incorrect in the first place. It is easier politically to impose lockdowns than to take what I'd consider to be a balanced approached. I mean, which message is easier to deliver?:

"I will do anything in my power to prevent any deaths, including preventing people from leaving their homes for extended periods of time, shutting down schools and businesses, and peppering the roads with police checkpoints. Viruses are systems that can and should be controlled with policies that determine where people are allowed to go and with whom they're allowed to interact, and how and when, regardless of the cost. The ends justify the means."

or

"Even though other countries are locking down hard, I'm not going to do that because of all these other societally important factors. As a result of preserving certain fundamental rights, more people will die on my watch. There is a limit to the amount of power I'm willing to wield in order to slow the transmission of this virus. The ends do not justify the means."

dalyboy · 17-02-2021 11:41AM

Russman wrote: »

Excellent post all round.
TBH re the bolded parts, I rationalise it by hoping its just people lashing out, out of frustration and wanting someone to "blame" for the situation the world has found itself in. No right thinking person anywhere would want or wish for things as they are.

I think you are right there. (Bold)

It’s very concerning though that these people who are lashing out and frustrated are being given the time of day never mind being in a position to persuade government policies.
There was a time not so long ago that they’d be dealt with by a “there there there” tactic but now the media have them catatonic 24/7.

Worrying in the short to medium term in how we exit this to a semblance of normality

suicide_circus · 17-02-2021 11:56AM

Agreed that the government dont "want" to stay under lockdown but they are paralysed by fear of making a decision that could be interpreted as wrong because at the end of the day, they are not very high calibre decision makers. They are not "Great" leaders.

KrustyUCC · 17-02-2021 12:05PM

Government are just playing for time

Easier to keep everything shut than open up again

Same as last with painfully slow reopening

Yes they can borrow at low rates to keep things ticking over but you're only prolonging things

They are purposefully keeping the economy shut as they don't have the balls to go against NPHET again and don't want to get blamed

Instead they'll keep everything shut down for months on end with no plan for easing restrictions

No dates given or a metric for how restrictions would be eased

Of course the danger is that the slower they ease restrictions the more people will start ignoring restrictions

People won't spend up to 6 or 7 months not seeing friends, family, partners within and outside their own counties

Russman · 17-02-2021 12:06PM

francogarbanzo wrote: »

I agree they probably don't want this to go on any longer.

If I had to guess, it's a sunk cost issue - they can't change strategy without admitting the strategy was incorrect in the first place. It is easier politically to impose lockdowns than to take what I'd consider to be a balanced approached. I mean, which message is easier to deliver?:

"I will do anything in my power to prevent any deaths, including preventing people from leaving their homes for extended periods of time, shutting down schools and businesses, and peppering the roads with police checkpoints. Viruses are systems that can and should be controlled with policies that determine where people are allowed to go and with whom they're allowed to interact, and how and when, regardless of the cost. The ends justify the means."

or

"Even though other countries are locking down hard, I'm not going to do that because of all these other societally important factors. As a result of preserving certain fundamental rights, more people will die on my watch. There is a limit to the amount of power I'm willing to wield in order to slow the transmission of this virus. The ends do not justify the means."

I can see your point, but I don’t buy the second message there at all tbh. It’s almost like some of the mad cap republican governors in America, letting people die on a point of principle. Fully accept all deaths can’t be avoided, of course they can’t, but if you play it out logically, you could have hospital systems overwhelmed and non covid patients dying as they can’t access care, and we’d be effectively saying, “sorry, that’s just too bad”

I could accept it if we were doing something dramatically different to our peer countries and we wanted to change course, but most of the civilised world is taking a relatively similar approach.

TobyHolmes · 17-02-2021 12:11PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

Agreed that the government dont "want" to stay under lockdown but they are paralysed by fear of making a decision that could be interpreted as wrong because at the end of the day, they are not very high calibre decision makers. They are not "Great" leaders.

unfort in ireland we dont elect leaders we elect parties hence we are stuck with mediocrity

"The mediocre teacher tells. The good teacher explains. The superior teacher demonstrates. The great teacher inspires." - William Arthur Ward

Aph2016 · 17-02-2021 12:15PM

KrustyUCC wrote: »

Government are just playing for time

Easier to keep everything shut than open up again

Same as last with painfully slow reopening

Yes they can borrow at low rates to keep things ticking over but you're only prolonging things

They are purposefully keeping the economy shut as they don't have the balls to go against NPHET again and don't want to get blamed

Instead they'll keep everything shut down for months on end with no plan for easing restrictions

No dates given or a metric for how restrictions would be eased

Of course the danger is that the slower they ease restrictions the more people will start ignoring restrictions

People won't spend up to 6 or 7 months not seeing friends, family, partners within and outside their own counties

I thought Leo was going to be the man to step up and try push the other side of the argument for easing restrictions. He tried with the Claire Byrne interview but he was eaten alive by half the population afterwards. The timing was probably wrong, if that interview happened now he would have a lot more support. There's unfortunately no other politicians with a set of balls to step up.

CalamariFritti · 17-02-2021 12:29PM

Aph2016 wrote: »

I thought Leo was going to be the man to step up and try push the other side of the argument for easing restrictions. He tried with the Claire Byrne interview but he was eaten alive by half the population afterwards. The timing was probably wrong, if that interview happened now he would have a lot more support. There's unfortunately no other politicians with a set of balls to step up.

Although I'm not on the same wavelength with him politically at all I used to think Leo was the man for that. But I changed my mind on him. He had me conned too. He is the quintessential gauging how the wind blows guy. He could say something today and the complete opposite next week. I gave up listening to him completely.

Boggles · 17-02-2021 12:33PM

Russman wrote: »

Excellent post all round.
TBH re the bolded parts, I rationalise it by hoping its just people lashing out, out of frustration and wanting someone to "blame" for the situation the world has found itself in. No right thinking person anywhere would want or wish for things as they are.

Indeed, it's the oversimplification of a very complex situation, it's all part of denial, to try compartmentalize it further, a narrative of heroes and villains are created.

Good vs Evil.

As evidenced below.

KrustyUCC wrote: »

They are purposefully keeping the economy shut as they don't have the balls to go against NPHET again and don't want to get blamed

francogarbanzo · 17-02-2021 12:35PM

Russman wrote: »

I can see your point, but I don’t buy the second message there at all tbh. It’s almost like some of the mad cap republican governors in America, letting people die on a point of principle. Fully accept all deaths can’t be avoided, of course they can’t, but if you play it out logically, you could have hospital systems overwhelmed and non covid patients dying as they can’t access care, and we’d be effectively saying, “sorry, that’s just too bad”

I could accept it if we were doing something dramatically different to our peer countries and we wanted to change course, but most of the civilised world is taking a relatively similar approach.

But that's precisely the balance that governments must strive to achieve. Balancing safety with freedom. My point is that our current restrictions exist too far on the safety side of the spectrum.

As far as the "hospitals overwhelmed" goes, I don't have a solution for that and I don't believe the solution should be "curtail human rights until we reach milestone x." (Though it'd be much easier to swallow if they did tell us what "milestone x" even is.)

Also, just because other countries are doing something, doesn't make it right.

Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VIII *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

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Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VIII Read OP For Mod Warnings