Opening of "No-Food" pubs pushed out again

MOH · 15-01-2021 10:43PM

Irish Steve wrote: »

You're welcome, stick with your flawed actual facts, and continue to ignore the embarassing fact that track and trace never went back far enough to expose the likely location where most people caught Covid.

ROFL! So your argument boils down to "the official figures are incomplete but if they were complete all the extra numbers would favour me". That's exactly the same as Trump insisting loads of votes are invalid, but coincidentally all the invalid ones were for his opponent.

It's been well established at this stage that there are a number of places that are responsible for the spread of Covid, and significant spikes were seen on a number of occasions as a direct result of events that took place in (mainly) pubs, GAA after match and funerals being 2 examples. It took a long time to get those spikes back out of the national numbers.

Again, thanks for the laugh. No such thing has ever been well established. Unless I've missed it - I'd welcome a link to an actual official source providing supporting data? (as opposed to some regional UK vintner's newsletter, like you've resorted to previously?)

Certainly the EY report which was described by our minsiter for ill-health as "unambiguous evidence" is nothing of the sort. It actually cites ambiguities, before it goes on to position a percentage difference in covid rate increase of around 10% as an 80+% difference, by taking one percentage as a percentage of the other. It's deliberately structured to try to portray a particular conclusion and still can't do so without heavy caveats.

Do you genuinely believe that these GAA after-match and post-funeral events would have just not happened if pubs weren't open? You know full well they would have happened anyway, in private locations. (Although there certainly is a question of why sporting events are allowed continue in the middle of a pandemic)

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Ah yeah, but you’re doing it again. Pretending you don’t know the difference between schools and pubs and why schools are open and pubs aren’t. The reasons are obvious but it involves balancing conflicting ideas and finding the solution, which the government has done.

Pubs are non-essential, schools are not. Schools are non-essential because they allow parents to go to work and pay the mortgage while also keep it the broader economy going.

Schools will certainly spread the virus - any environment which brings people together indoors, will spread the virus. So keeping schools and workplaces open would mean clamping down harder in other areas to control the spread of the virus.

You know all this stuff yourself. Why would you make an argument which pretends you don’t know it?

I absolutely know the difference between pubs and schools, thanks. One sector has been blamed continuously for covid spread despite having never reopened after closing voluntarily last March. The other has been kept open at all costs regardless of the number of covid cases caused and the ultimate cost to the economy. (It's probably not important to you, but also regardless of the resulting deaths.)

You really should know all this stuff yourself. Why would you keep making arguments which pretend you don’t know it?

Irish Steve · 15-01-2021 11:20PM

Re the GAA local celebrations, there was a massive spike around this area that was down to a local pub that broke just about all the rules, and ended up with them having to close completely a few days later because there were no staff left to run the place, they all went down with Covid, including the landlord, who then passed it on to the other pubs he owns. No, it didn't make the national headlines, but there's plenty of local people who witnessed and were affected by the numbers, and the same pub was closed before Christmas as a result of a Garda raid, they shouldn't have even been open! Similar happened in other pubs not far away.

Yes, if the pubs had been closed, the same would probably have happened as a result of private gatherings, either way, track and trace would not have known about these events because they don't go far enough back into the history. The fact that they happened at all is an indication of a very poor level of management at State level, GAA caused problems in a number of counties and towns, depending on who won. Would have been better to keep the whole thing shut down, but the GAA has too much clout for the Government to deny them.

We can agree on one thing, the EY report was a joke from Page 1, and should never have seen the light of day.

Aongus Von Bismarck · 15-01-2021 11:43PM

The decision to open restaurants and pubs serving food was a terrible mistake. The idea that pubs which didn't serve should be allowed to reopen was one of the most preposterous things I've ever had the misfortune of reading on this website. We didn't open them in Germany where we also have a strong pub culture, and we are still recording huge deaths each day. It would be catastrophic if we had made the decision to open them.

Kunta Kinte · 15-01-2021 11:52PM

Aongus Von Bismarck wrote: »

The decision to open restaurants and pubs serving food was a terrible mistake. The idea that pubs which didn't serve should be allowed to reopen was one of the most preposterous things I've ever had the misfortune of reading on this website. We didn't open them in Germany where we also have a strong pub culture, and we are still recording huge deaths each day. It would be catastrophic if we had made the decision to open them.

Are you in Ireland or in Germany?

PommieBast · 16-01-2021 12:29AM

Aongus Von Bismarck wrote: »

The decision to open restaurants and pubs serving food was a terrible mistake.

Opening up in general was a mistake, but difficult questions still have to be asked about how much of the spike was down to wholesale flouting of guidelines.

16-01-2021 12:39AM

PommieBast wrote: »

Opening up in general was a mistake, but difficult questions still have to be asked about how much of the spike was down to wholesale flouting of guidelines.

If people are honest IBEC,vinteners associaton,ISME etc havnt served their members interests well in supporting these on/off again lockdowns and havnt pushed the government to properly persue a zero covid stragedy

Like if we open in early feb,chances are we will be in same position in terms of interaction by paddys day......push and sell the zero covid plan properly to the public to me,alongside an expanding vaccination programme.....should seriously be examined on an all island basis........this living with covid plan hasnt worked anywhere its been tried

ginoginelli · 16-01-2021 12:58AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

If people are honest IBEC,vinteners associaton,ISME etc havnt served their members interests well in supporting these on/off again lockdowns and havnt pushed the government to properly persue a zero covid stragedy

Like if we open in early feb,chances are we will be in same position in terms of interaction by paddys day......push and sell the zero covid plan properly to the public to me,alongside an expanding vaccination programme.....should seriously be examined on an all island basis........this living with covid plan hasnt worked anywhere its been tried

I cant think of any organization bar Ryanair that handled itself so badly as the vitners throughout this pandemic. They betrayed their owners and the public.

Irish Steve · 16-01-2021 01:06AM

IF you want a zero Covid strategy to work, the only way to make that happen is to close the border with NI, and stop all Ro-Ro ferry services. Quite how we will then get all the goods required into the country will be an interesting challenge, as there's not enough Container capacity in terms of ships or port facilities to handle what currently arrives on Ro-Ro, and some of the major exporters in Ireland will also have massive problems making their export deliveries.

You'll also need to shut down all the flights coming in, and make special arrangements to handle cargo flights coming in and out, good luck with getting all that in place in less than 12 months.

fin12 · 16-01-2021 01:10AM

Irish Steve wrote: »

IF you want a zero Covid strategy to work, the only way to make that happen is to close the border with NI, and stop all Ro-Ro ferry services. Quite how we will then get all the goods required into the country will be an interesting challenge, as there's not enough Container capacity in terms of ships or port facilities to handle what currently arrives on Ro-Ro, and some of the major exporters in Ireland will also have massive problems making their export deliveries.

You'll also need to shut down all the flights coming in, and make special arrangements to handle cargo flights coming in and out, good luck with getting all that in place in less than 12 months.

They would never do that here, they love people coming in from abroad and doing as they please. 150,000 came in over Christmas, I couldn’t believe that figure and half refused to say where they were staying...

fin12 · 16-01-2021 01:11AM

fin12 wrote: »

They would never do that here, they love people coming in from abroad and doing as they please. 150,000 came in over Christmas, I couldn’t believe that figure and half refused to say where they were saying...

The neck some people have and people here scared sh*tless to go outside their 5km

16-01-2021 01:16AM

Irish Steve wrote: »

IF you want a zero Covid strategy to work, the only way to make that happen is to close the border with NI, and stop all Ro-Ro ferry services. Quite how we will then get all the goods required into the country will be an interesting challenge, as there's not enough Container capacity in terms of ships or port facilities to handle what currently arrives on Ro-Ro, and some of the major exporters in Ireland will also have massive problems making their export deliveries.

You'll also need to shut down all the flights coming in, and make special arrangements to handle cargo flights coming in and out, good luck with getting all that in place in less than 12 months.

As opposed to this rip roaring success that the government have of living with covid that has failed everywhere its tried
.

There should be serious qs asked about the wisdom of introducing tax breaks to encourage stay-cations and socialising during an pandemic and simply making zero effort in keeping the virus out

Rob kearney has immigrated to oz and is isolating for 2 weeks in a hotel room .....this bolix that we have to shut down flights etc coming in,is a low-brow cop-out by the government swallowed wholesale by media....scientifically it is only method that will work.....instead we are fed a line of rubbish,that we can somehow "live" with a highly transmissible virus that kills our old and sick

PTH2009 · 16-01-2021 01:18AM

That tweet saying possibly Wet pubs not open til Autumn is both scary and sobering

Another summer of looking at other countries been more adventurous and us still locked up

Kunta Kinte · 16-01-2021 01:25AM

PTH2009 wrote: »

That tweet saying possibly Wet pubs not open til Autumn is both scary and sobering

Another summer of looking at other countries been more adventurous and us still locked up

Which tweet was that and from whom?

fin12 · 16-01-2021 01:25AM

PTH2009 wrote: »

That tweet saying possibly Wet pubs not open til Autumn is both scary and sobering

Another summer of looking at other countries been more adventurous and us still locked up

I wouldn’t take any notice of that statement. So the pubs stay closed longer in the year that we have a vaccine. Not a chance...

PTH2009 · 16-01-2021 01:26AM

https://twitter.com/MichealLehane/status/1350191082416562180?s=20

fin12 · 16-01-2021 01:29AM

PTH2009 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/MichealLehane/status/1350191082416562180?s=20

That is actually f*cking hilarious... the foreign travelers not coming here, they haven’t stopped coming here. I’m just waiting this week for the Brazilian variant to be announced here no doubt as its prob easier to travel here from Brazil than to travel outside ur 5km

PTH2009 · 16-01-2021 01:32AM

fin12 wrote: »

That is actually f*cking hilarious... the foreign travelers not coming here, they haven’t stopped coming here. I’m just waiting this week for the Brazilian variant to be announced here no doubt as its prob easier to travel here from Brazil than to travel outside ur 5km

No €100 fine for the Brazilians here to trace their ancestors and have that sweet pint of Guinness

Kunta Kinte · 16-01-2021 01:40AM

PTH2009 wrote: »

No €100 fine for the Brazilians here to trace their ancestors and have that sweet pint of Guinness

With no pubs open before mid summer at the earliest where exactly do you think all these Brazilians that are supposedly going to flood into the country going to have their pints of Guinness or anything else? Shebeens? House parties?

PommieBast · 16-01-2021 02:51AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Like if we open in early feb,chances are we will be in same position in terms of interaction by paddys day......push and sell the zero covid plan properly to the public to me,alongside an expanding vaccination programme.....should seriously be examined on an all island basis........this living with covid plan hasnt worked anywhere its been tried

The problem with the plan is that they never stuck to it. I think the way pubs were kept closed all summer was also a huge mistake because it made people think politics-as-usual and I have no doubt that the fritted-away goodwill was partly responsible for what happened in December.

Pubs, resturants, schools, the lot - with the numbers Ireland now has I don't really forsee anything opening before March.

PTH2009 wrote: »

That tweet saying possibly Wet pubs not open til Autumn is both scary and sobering

I've long stopped even thinking about them. Autumn looks optimistic.

16-01-2021 06:46AM

Will the pubs open this year?

Be nice to get a pint during the summer

fin12 · 16-01-2021 08:30AM

6 wrote: »

Will the pubs open this year?

Be nice to get a pint during the summer

Yes they will.

GazzaL · 16-01-2021 08:44AM

Kunta Kinte wrote: »

With no pubs open before mid summer at the earliest where exactly do you think all these Brazilians that are supposedly going to flood into the country going to have their pints of Guinness or anything else? Shebeens? House parties?

I might put a few rooms up on Airbnb and bring a few of the Brazilians up to one of the local pubs that's doing takeaway pints.

doublejobbing 2 · 16-01-2021 11:43AM

Aongus Von Bismarck wrote: »

The decision to open restaurants and pubs serving food was a terrible mistake. The idea that pubs which didn't serve should be allowed to reopen was one of the most preposterous things I've ever had the misfortune of reading on this website. We didn't open them in Germany where we also have a strong pub culture, and we are still recording huge deaths each day. It would be catastrophic if we had made the decision to open them.

What are you on about? Bars re opened in parts of Germany around the same time that clown Harris was, without a shred of bother or concern on him, saying that he didn't foresee pubs re opening here before a vaccine came about. I remember well a spot on Euronews showing German football fans watching a match, albeit in a fairly empty looking bar (believe it was Dortmund from memory).

The Bundesliga resumed on May 16th so it was likely around then.

On May 18th we were at the stage of being allowed out of the house to meet 4 people, and building sites and retail could re open. Our controls were among the longest and most draconian in Europe.

doublejobbing 2 · 16-01-2021 11:55AM

PTH2009 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/MichealLehane/status/1350191082416562180?s=20

Nothing against Lehane personally, but a few days before the opening of wet pubs was cancelled in August I seem to recall his sources tweeting that even nightclubs would be opened by the weekend. Or was he quoting Leo himself, I can't recall.

I think the situation is so fluid that I wouldn't read too much into either promises or doom mongering, whomever the source. Fact is I can't see how this nonsense can be justified any longer once the most at risk people are vaccinated, and that is scheduled for late March (all over 70's) and late June (all other somewhat vulnerable).

Although we are hitting "record" numbers, from memory our testing capacity was a disaster up until about late April/ May. We may well have been hitting these numbers in late March through April only the bulk of them went unnoticed. We took from lockdown in late March to start hitting reasonable numbers by early May.

Problem is there was more of a spirit of doing it for the public good. People, myself included, this time around really can't see the point in abiding by rules when the border remains wide open.

El_Duderino 09 · 16-01-2021 12:33PM

MOH wrote: »

...

I absolutely know the difference between pubs and schools, thanks. One sector has been blamed continuously for covid spread despite having never reopened after closing voluntarily last March. The other has been kept open at all costs regardless of the number of covid cases caused and the ultimate cost to the economy. (It's probably not important to you, but also regardless of the resulting deaths.)

You really should know all this stuff yourself. Why would you keep making arguments which pretend you don’t know it?

Yeah you say you understand the difference between pubs and schools. But you make no reference to your understanding and you ignore the difference i game in the post you quoted. So, since you seemed to miss the difference I highlighted, I’ll post it again:

“Pubs are non-essential, schools are not. Schools are essential because they allow parents to go to work and pay the mortgage while also keep it the broader economy going.

Schools will certainly spread the virus - any environment which brings people together indoors, will spread the virus. So keeping schools and workplaces open would mean clamping down harder in other areas to control the spread of the virus.”

I don’t blame pubs for having spread the virus as they were rightly closed for most of the relevant period. I credit the government for closing the pubs to prevent the spread - because pubs are non essential and are a good place to spread the virus. They took the right course of action in closing the pubs.

But they should compensate businesses for having to close. And by “they” I mean us. We will pay for compensating businesses through higher tax in the future. But that’s fair enough, it’s just the way it works.

Iteration1 · 16-01-2021 12:50PM

The above is an argument well put forward, but I have an issue with the black and white of pubs being non-essential and schools being essential. If the reason you give above for schools being essential is to allow parent continue to work, then the same argument could be made for publicans or bar staff. People seem to have forgotten that schools are not supposed to be free babysitting services. If a couple rely on them for such to make their financial ends meet, then maybe they've over-extended themselves and should look to address that. If they don't have contingencies to bridge the gap during this crisis then they haven't done well at saving. Nobody wants to use their savings to get through such times, but people do not have a right to be compensated when hard times fall and feel no impact. Its up to yourself to plan for such.

PommieBast · 16-01-2021 01:25PM

Iteration1 wrote: »

The above is an argument well put forward, but I have an issue with the black and white of pubs being non-essential and schools being essential.

What grated me is how schools were regarded as "safe" when in reality it was always a balance between a potential infection vector and problems associated with kids not being in school.

Kunta Kinte · 16-01-2021 01:55PM

Fran has a bone wrote: »

Wet Pubs will be open well before Tourists are back. I don't imagine tourists will be arriving in significant numbers this year.

The 2 go hand in hand. Without any nightlife or hospitality most tourists would have no interest.

If you were off for holidays the cesspit of Ireland 2021 is the last place you'd go. Most people can't wait to escape this gutter.

You and a small handful of your buddies can hardly be called "most people".

Tenzor07 · 16-01-2021 02:39PM

6 wrote: »

Will the pubs open this year? Be nice to get a pint during the summer

No, as in don't count on it... Summer pints in a non-food pub? Slim to no chance of that happening... at best maybe food pubs 15 outdoors unless Government overrule NPHET...so possibly Autumn restaurants will open with limited numbers... Think that's too pessimistic? Just look at last Summer, Low case numbers and no deaths but Pubs still closed, whereas in Europe they were open..

Tourist season will again have to rely on internal/domestic tourism.. Will be a very low level of international tourism with "Level 3 or 4" restrictions... What's here to come for? Nothing!

https://www.independent.ie/news/another-year-of-restrictions-ahead-until-everyone-has-been-vaccinated-says-dr-colm-henry-39975290.html

o1s1n · 16-01-2021 02:42PM

GazzaL wrote: »

It's a miserable ****hole. I'm looking forward to seeing how NPHET and Fáilte Ireland follow on from 2020s "**** Off" campaign.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Opening of "No-Food" pubs pushed out again

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