The Dominance of Dublin GAA Mod warning post#1

ArielAtom · 10-01-2021 08:19PM

tikkahunter wrote: »

Would you not present these figures to your county board?

No one here from a Dublin perspective has ever disputed the figure between 07 and 17 as these were the Dublin project years. They have been seen by the world and his wife, if a county board I Ireland has not seen them, they are not doing their job, which to be fair is probably the truth bar Mayo and Kerry in football.

Enquiring · 10-01-2021 08:27PM

ArielAtom wrote: »

No
one here has ever disputed the figure between 07 and 17 as these were the Dublin project years. They have been seen by the world and his wife, if a county board I Ireland has not seen them, they are not doing their job.

Just so we're clear here. Posters such as the above have tried to claim that the funding has stopped since 2017 and it only began in 2007. Proof will be provided to show that this is false. Also, many are not aware of the figures or willfully ignore them. The more people know about just how much Dublin were given above every other county, the better. Let's end the farce.

thesultan · 10-01-2021 09:21PM

ooter wrote: »

Straight from the horse's mouth earlier, lack of skill is not an issue with hurling in dublin, so why no senior all ireland?

It is lack of skill. All solo and hand pass

ArielAtom · 10-01-2021 09:40PM

thesultan wrote: »

It is lack of skill. All solo and hand pass

The only teams that are out in front skill wise would be KK, Tipp and Limerick who mix physicality with skill, the chasing pack Waterford, Wexford recall are bang average in comparison and Dublin sit in there. So their skill levels are like the majority, behind the top three.

tritium · 10-01-2021 09:57PM

Enquiring wrote: »

This time, we have the Games Development funding for 2011, 2012, 2013 and 2014!

Again, you can clearly see the disparity in funding and never forget that you have to double Dublin's figure on these tables as that's what they were really spending on coaches throughout these years.

I’m confused

Your figures total a smidgeon over €2.8 million

When I look at the gaas 2014 games development report for the Irish sports council there’s about €9.5 million total development spend. Within that I can see roughly the right Figure for dublin broken out under dublin games development (1.43m- I’m assuming this corresponds to your dublin figures though obviously certainty Is difficult given you’ve just dumped a list of numbers down. A full breakdown of games development numbers from your source material would be useful here). That goes into two headings - deployment of personnel and projects

Excluding this there’s other deployment of personnel of nearly 3 million for example, county projects including talent academies of 1.2 million under the games development heading.

Care to explain where the rest of that money is in your figures, and to where its allocated

kona · 10-01-2021 09:57PM

I would say the reason the dublin hurlers have not won a all ireland isnt down to skill, they are as talented a bunch as anybody bar maybe the top 3.
They havnt won a all ireland and will not until they are mentally prepared for it. I dont think they have the right mentality to beat say a limerick if it was do or die last 10 minutes of a final.
They also have the senior footballers, alot of the talent are dual players eg. Connolly, kilkenny, con. As ferociously competitive as the senior panel is, thats currently the best way your going to win a all ireland as a dub.

tritium · 10-01-2021 10:19PM

kona wrote: »

I would say the reason the dublin hurlers have not won a all ireland isnt down to skill, they are as talented a bunch as anybody bar maybe the top 3.
They havnt won a all ireland and will not until they are mentally prepared for it. I dont think they have the right mentality to beat say a limerick if it was do or die last 10 minutes of a final.
They also have the senior footballers, alot of the talent are dual players eg. Connolly, kilkenny, con. As ferociously competitive as the senior panel is, thats currently the best way your going to win a all ireland as a dub.

Oddly enough I remember that same mental weakness in the dublin team of the ninties. Very talented but if you squeezed them they went soft. I remember when they finally won the thing it felt like the last chance saloon in many ways. Just my take on them though maybe others remember differently

Enquiring · 11-01-2021 12:20AM

tritium wrote: »

I’m confused

Your figures total a smidgeon over €2.8 million

When I look at the gaas 2014 games development report for the Irish sports council there’s about €9.5 million total development spend. Within that I can see roughly the right Figure for dublin broken out under dublin games development (1.43m- I’m assuming this corresponds to your dublin figures though obviously certainty Is difficult given you’ve just dumped a list of numbers down. A full breakdown of games development numbers from your source material would be useful here). That goes into two headings - deployment of personnel and projects

Excluding this there’s other deployment of personnel of nearly 3 million for example, county projects including talent academies of 1.2 million under the games development heading.

Care to explain where the rest of that money is in your figures, and to where its allocated

The numbers are from the GAA annual accounts. They are freely available. What are you confused about? I've quoted what each county received for games development in 2014, 2013, 2012 and 2011 in the post you quoted. Do you dispute the GAA's figures or what's the issue?

Dyr · 11-01-2021 01:05AM

kona wrote: »

I would say the reason the dublin hurlers have not won a all ireland isnt down to skill, they are as talented a bunch as anybody bar maybe the top 3.
They havnt won a all ireland and will not until they are mentally prepared for it. I dont think they have the right mentality to beat say a limerick if it was do or die last 10 minutes of a final.
They also have the senior footballers, alot of the talent are dual players eg. Connolly, kilkenny, con. As ferociously competitive as the senior panel is, thats currently the best way your going to win a all ireland as a dub.

While its true that the most talented athletes in Dublin choose football over hurlingThe remainder arent that talented at all, very few Dublin hurlers would get a place in the other top leavel hurling teams. You could argue that they are skilled and just cant bring it to bear at the highest level but it makes very little difference to the end result, they can't cut it

tritium · 11-01-2021 08:43AM

Enquiring wrote: »

The numbers are from the GAA annual accounts. They are freely available. What are you confused about? I've quoted what each county received for games development in 2014, 2013, 2012 and 2011 in the post you quoted. Do you dispute the GAA's figures or what's the issue?

My numbers are also freely available, from a report by the GAA for the Irish sport council. Do You dispute the GAAs figures?

I’m confused because there seems to be far more games development money than you’re have in your figures. Where is the rest of the money in your figures? For example is this additional money also available to the counties through non County allocations, possibly some of it provincially for example?

Enquiring · 11-01-2021 09:38AM

tritium wrote: »

My numbers are also freely available, from a report by the GAA for the Irish sport council. Do You dispute the GAAs figures?

I’m confused because there seems to be far more games development money than you’re have in your figures. Where is the rest of the money in your figures? For example is this additional money also available to the counties through non County allocations, possibly some of it provincially for example?

Games development money goes to the provincial council's also. Are you still trying to claim that Dublin are not on the Leinster council and don't receive money from the Leinster council? The money is just for other counties in Leinster? If so, you're going to have to back that up with some evidence.

tritium · 11-01-2021 10:07AM

Enquiring wrote: »

Games development money goes to the provincial council's also. Are you still trying to claim that Dublin are not on the Leinster council and don't receive money from the Leinster council? The money is just for other counties in Leinster? If so, you're going to have to back that up with some evidence.

Oh so your figures don’t tell the full story. That’s quite an admission for you since it means the figures you posted are misleading at best. Let’s look at the personnel deployment heading I quoted. The non dublin element is bigger than the total non dublin county allocation you provided. How is that broken down by county?

Enquiring · 11-01-2021 10:22AM

tritium wrote: »

Oh so your figures don’t tell the full story. That’s quite an admission for you since it means the figures you posted are misleading at best. Let’s look at the personnel deployment heading I quoted. The non dublin element is bigger than the total non dublin county allocation you provided. How is that broken down by county?

We can split the money each provincial council gets equally amongst all counties if you want? That will leave us in the same position, just with higher totals. Unless you have some proof that Dublin don't receive funding from the Leinster council? Care to provide us with this proof?

ArmaniJeanss · 11-01-2021 11:37AM

Enquiring wrote: »

We can split the money each provincial council gets equally amongst all counties if you want? That will leave us in the same position, just with higher totals. Unless you have some proof that Dublin don't receive funding from the Leinster council? Care to provide us with this proof?

Well if there's say another €1.2M being split 12 ways equally, then obviously Dublin's lead stays the same.
But the differential would now be hugely changed - if in your previous chart Dublin were receiving 20x another county, the new figures would see it reduced to 9x.
So it would be great to see the Nett figures after the provincial amount has been allocated.

tritium · 11-01-2021 12:20PM

Enquiring wrote: »

We can split the money each provincial council gets equally amongst all counties if you want? That will leave us in the same position, just with higher totals. Unless you have some proof that Dublin don't receive funding from the Leinster council? Care to provide us with this proof?

Is it being split equally? Show me the details for that would you, what’s the allocation

You’re the one making the allegations so the onus is on you to explain how the money is spent unfairly. So far you’re kind of floundering in afraid. Here, I’ll help you out with this from the Leinster council 2014 financial statements: €1.8m on games promotion officers, another 335k for games development officers and provincial officers- it actually has the dublin coaching project broken out separately and all- 241k

Enquiring · 11-01-2021 01:04PM

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Well if there's say another €1.2M being split 12 ways equally, then obviously Dublin's lead stays the same.
But the differential would now be hugely changed - if in your previous chart Dublin were receiving 20x another county, the new figures would see it reduced to 9x.
So it would be great to see the Nett figures after the provincial amount has been allocated.

Leinster isn't a county. There is no coaching plan in operation like the Dublin only scheme where there's a paid coach or two for nearly every club. While Dublin had about 90 paid coaches, every other county had below 6 with some just with 1!

Enquiring · 11-01-2021 01:16PM

tritium wrote: »

Is it being split equally? Show me the details for that would you, what’s the allocation

You’re the one making the allegations so the onus is on you to explain how the money is spent unfairly. So far you’re kind of floundering in afraid. Here, I’ll help you out with this from the Leinster council 2014 financial statements: €1.8m on games promotion officers, another 335k for games development officers and provincial officers- it actually has the dublin coaching project broken out separately and all- 241k

So no proof of your claim that every county except Dublin receive games development money from the Leinster council? I'm not surprised.

Dublin remain as part of Leinster even though they demanded to be treated like a province. They get funding from the Leinster council just like every other county.

Just as you were looking for a more complete picture, the figures for Dublin on the GAA's accounts don't match what they actually spend on games development. On the Strategic Review Committee heading on the Dublin county board accounts, Dublin had an income of 2.5 million in 2015 and 2.7 million in 2016. While the GAA accounts state they received 1.4 million for both years.

tritium · 11-01-2021 01:36PM

Enquiring wrote: »

So no proof of your claim that every county except Dublin receive games development money from the Leinster council? I'm not surprised.

Dublin remain as part of Leinster even though they demanded to be treated like a province. They get funding from the Leinster council just like every other county.

Just as you were looking for a more complete picture, the figures for Dublin on the GAA's accounts don't match what they actually spend on games development. On the Strategic Review Committee heading on the Dublin county board accounts, Dublin had an income of 2.5 million in 2015 and 2.7 million in 2016. While the GAA accounts state they received 1.4 million for both years.

You’re the one making the claims, the onus is on you to explain the vast sums of money I’ve demonstrated are missing from your “evidence”. The onus is on you to show that that’s been allocated unfairly since you’re the one making the allegation. Right now all you have is a (very)selective subset of a much larger figure that is split in one way, it demonstrates nothing about total funding allocations which I’ve shown are significantly larger. If you can prove that the rest of the millions are distributed in an unbalanced way you might be in a position to start a conversation again, however at this point you basically have nothing, and it’s not up to me to fix that for you

Enquiring · 11-01-2021 02:06PM

tritium wrote: »

You’re the one making the claims, the onus is on you to explain the vast sums of money I’ve demonstrated are missing from your “evidence”. The onus is on you to show that that’s been allocated unfairly since you’re the one making the allegation. Right now all you have is a (very)selective subset of a much larger figure that is split in one way, it demonstrates nothing about total funding allocations which I’ve shown are significantly larger. If you can prove that the rest of the millions are distributed in an unbalanced way you might be in a position to start a conversation again, however at this point you basically have nothing, and it’s not up to me to fix that for you

You made the claim that all Leinster counties apart from Dublin receive games development funding from the Leinster council. You haven't provided a shred of evidence to back that up!

I've provided GAA annual accounts along with Dublin GAA accounts which show a huge disparity in funding.

If you can provide some proof of your claims, will you kindly post it here?

This is evidence for example:

The Dublin county board chief executive, John Costello stated that Dublin spent 3.6 million on games development funding in 2018. That's from the horses mouth. 3.6 million!!!

tritium · 11-01-2021 02:22PM

Enquiring wrote: »

You made the claim that all Leinster counties apart from Dublin receive games development funding from the Leinster council. You haven't provided a shred of evidence to back that up!

I've provided GAA annual accounts along with Dublin GAA accounts which show a huge disparity in funding.

If you can provide some proof of your claims, will you kindly post it here?

This is evidence for example:

The Dublin county board chief executive, John Costello stated that Dublin spent 3.6 million on games development funding in 2018. That's from the horses mouth. 3.6 million!!!

Again, you claimed a certain allocation of games development funding. It’s now apparent that you can’t actually account for the majority of said games development funding. unless you can show that your argument is baseless and you don’t actually know the true answer

MayoAreMagic · 11-01-2021 02:28PM

tritium wrote: »

Again, you claimed a certain allocation of games development funding. It’s now apparent that you can’t actually account for the majority of said games development funding. unless you can show that your argument is baseless and you don’t actually know the true answer

Why arent you providing any proof of tour own claims or answering any of the questions put to you? It seems you dont want to engage in any kind of meaningful debate on the topic. It is also a bit rich ask questions, many of which have already been answered, while refusing to address anything asked of you. Are you not able to answer them?

tritium · 11-01-2021 02:33PM

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Why arent you providing any proof of tour own claims or answering any of the questions put to you? It seems you dont want to engage in any kind of meaningful debate on the topic. It is also a bit rich ask questions, many of which have already been answered, while refusing to address anything asked of you. Are you not able to answer them?

I’ve given the e clear evidence of the total amount spent on games development funding. If enquiring says it’s allocated unfairly they they need to show it based on tat figure, not a carefully selected and much smaller subset

Enquiring · 11-01-2021 02:40PM

tritium wrote: »

Again, you claimed a certain allocation of games development funding. It’s now apparent that you can’t actually account for the majority of said games development funding. unless you can show that your argument is baseless and you don’t actually know the true answer

I was showing everyone 1 section of the funding disparity. As I have shown from the Dublin county board accounts and from quotes from the Dublin county board chairman, Dublin actually spend far more on games development funding than what the GAA annual accounts state.

It is a very good indicator of what went on though. Dublin were receiving funding so that nearly every club had access to their own professional coach. How many clubs does Dublin have? Around 130? How many do Cork have? Far more yet they were receiving under 100,000 in games development funding on some years while Dublin were raking in 1.5 million plus!

Cork had 6 development officers for their huge amount of clubs. Then we have counties like Antrim and Limerick with over 100 clubs. In 2007, Antrim received 11,000 and Limerick 23,000. Dublin received 1,603,903 in the same year and as we know, this isn't the full total they were spending for that year on the Dublin only games development scheme.

Enquiring · 11-01-2021 08:31PM

Ok, time to go back to when the funding began! The earliest evidence I can get is from 2002. The funding wasn't to the level it was to become from 2005. At that stage, the Sports Council started funding Dublin but as a total spend on Games Development, Dublin were receiving a lot. They were being part funded by HQ and part funded by the Leinster Council.

The 'Football Development Project' was Dublin. Quite a large total, they were also receiving 200,000 a year from the Leinster Council so about 700,000 a year on Games Development.

tritium · 11-01-2021 09:19PM

Enquiring wrote: »

Ok, time to go back to when the funding began! The earliest evidence I can get is from 2002. The funding wasn't to the level it was to become from 2005. At that stage, the Sports Council started funding Dublin but as a total spend on Games Development, Dublin were receiving a lot. They were being part funded by HQ and part funded by the Leinster Council.

The 'Football Development Project' was Dublin. Quite a large total, they were also receiving 200,000 a year from the Leinster Council so about 700,000 a year on Games Development.

When you say they received 200k from the Leinster council, what was the Leinster councils total spend on games development in 2002?

Enquiring · 11-01-2021 10:36PM

tritium wrote: »

When you say they received 200k from the Leinster council, what was the Leinster councils total spend on games development in 2002?

Hang on. You failed to back up any of your claims, you failed to answer any question put to you and now you're back demanding answers.

Tomorrow I will be supplying the master plan. The document that will all sound very familiar, basically all the steps Dublin have taken that was drawn up for them. It's a lot of reading but it will explain how we got in this situation where we must split Dublin into 4.

tritium · 12-01-2021 12:20AM

Enquiring wrote: »

Hang on. You failed to back up any of your claims, you failed to answer any question put to you and now you're back demanding answers.

Tomorrow I will be supplying the master plan. The document that will all sound very familiar, basically all the steps Dublin have taken that was drawn up for them. It's a lot of reading but it will explain how we got in this situation where we must split Dublin into 4.

I keep telling you but you seem to struggle with it

You made the allegations, you need to provide the evidence. I’ve already provided the information to show that you ignored a sizeable chunk of games development funding in your allegations, you’ve already conceded that. It doesn’t fall on me to show what was done with a single cent of that additional money because, you’ve guessed it, you’re the one making the allegations, On that basis alone your “evidence” is garbage.

By the way when you say dublin were being bankrolled by Leinster council too on 2002, can you tell me what an appropriate percentage of Leinster council games development funding would be to go to dublin in that year? ( in your humble opinion of course)

Enquiring · 12-01-2021 08:37AM

tritium wrote: »

I keep telling you but you seem to struggle with it

You made the allegations, you need to provide the evidence. I’ve already provided the information to show that you ignored a sizeable chunk of games development funding in your allegations, you’ve already conceded that. It doesn’t fall on me to show what was done with a single cent of that additional money because, you’ve guessed it, you’re the one making the allegations, On that basis alone your “evidence” is garbage.

By the way when you say dublin were being bankrolled by Leinster council too on 2002, can you tell me what an appropriate percentage of Leinster council games development funding would be to go to dublin in that year? ( in your humble opinion of course)

Conceded? You're acting like you've discovered the third secret of Fatima here! Everyone knows that the provincial council's provide funding for games development. Dublin avail of this too, since you couldn't provide any evidence to the contrary, I assume you've had to accept this as fact? The Munster, Ulster and Connaught provincial council's provide money as well as the Leinster council. This is common knowledge.

What my figures show is that the funding for all counties except one are broadly similar. The gap between 2nd on the list in Cork and 32nd on the list in fermanagh is not that much. There isn't a big gap between Leitrim or Antrim or Kerry and Kilkenny. That's because all counties had access to a similar number of coaches. All below 6.

One county has been completely out of line with all others. Dublin had their own special scheme set up for them. They received millions upon millions more than anyone else to provide nearly every club in Dublin with their own professional coach. The evidence I've provided shows that Dublin have spent over 50 million on games development since 2002!

My argument is that Dublin should be split. This 50 million is only part of the argument to show why this should happen. That's the amazing thing. Dublin spend over 2 million per year on wages and salaries, receive over 2 million in sponsorship, spend over 1.5 million every year on team preparations. I've provided evidence for all of this.

To top it all off, later I will provide evidence to show that all the above has happened off the back of a detailed plan that was drawn up for them by a special team put together by the GAA.

tritium · 12-01-2021 10:46AM

Enquiring wrote: »

Conceded? You're acting like you've discovered the third secret of Fatima here! Everyone knows that the provincial council's provide funding for games development. Dublin avail of this too, since you couldn't provide any evidence to the contrary, I assume you've had to accept this as fact? The Munster, Ulster and Connaught provincial council's provide money as well as the Leinster council. This is common knowledge.

What my figures show is that the funding for all counties except one are broadly similar. The gap between 2nd on the list in Cork and 32nd on the list in fermanagh is not that much. There isn't a big gap between Leitrim or Antrim or Kerry and Kilkenny. That's because all counties had access to a similar number of coaches. All below 6.

One county has been completely out of line with all others. Dublin had their own special scheme set up for them. They received millions upon millions more than anyone else to provide nearly every club in Dublin with their own professional coach. The evidence I've provided shows that Dublin have spent over 50 million on games development since 2002!

My argument is that Dublin should be split. This 50 million is only part of the argument to show why this should happen. That's the amazing thing. Dublin spend over 2 million per year on wages and salaries, receive over 2 million in sponsorship, spend over 1.5 million every year on team preparations. I've provided evidence for all of this.

To top it all off, later I will provide evidence to show that all the above has happened off the back of a detailed plan that was drawn up for them by a special team put together by the GAA.

Let’s just take one example of the dishonesty of the argument you’ve presented. Your position is that the Leinster council give development money to everyone so the imbalance must be maintained. Let’s look at that using evidence I’ve already presented (for those who want to say I’m not offering any answers). I already mentioned the figures in the GAA games development report 2014 specifically broke down the dublin games development separately to just ‘games development’. Each of these have headings for deployment of personnel-1.4m under the dublin heading and 3m under the gd heading. Where does this go? Well the staffing for games development is substantial across the country. Let’s look at the list of games development personell in the report to see how substantial. Dublin have just over 60, the rest of Leinster for example have 68. (That number for rest of Leinster is 118 now as I previously demonstrated). Now we’ve noted that dublin clubs are also paying a share, and some employees are also part time so an exact mapping is difficult but it seems reasonable that the GAA aren’t operating a separate salary structure ( you know the BMWs for the dubs thing others have alluded to) so that deployment figure shows a massive spend outside dublin, bigger than the county distributor you highlight

Enquiring · 12-01-2021 11:38AM

tritium wrote: »

Let’s just take one example of the dishonesty of the argument you’ve presented. Your position is that the Leinster council give development money to everyone so the imbalance must be maintained. Let’s look at that using evidence I’ve already presented (for those who want to say I’m not offering any answers). I already mentioned the figures in the GAA games development report 2014 specifically broke down the dublin games development separately to just ‘games development’. Each of these have headings for deployment of personnel-1.4m under the dublin heading and 3m under the gd heading. Where does this go? Well the staffing for games development is substantial across the country. Let’s look at the list of games development personell in the report to see how substantial. Dublin have just over 60, the rest of Leinster for example have 68. (That number for rest of Leinster is 118 now as I previously demonstrated). Now we’ve noted that dublin clubs are also paying a share, and some employees are also part time so an exact mapping is difficult but it seems reasonable that the GAA aren’t operating a separate salary structure ( you know the BMWs for the dubs thing others have alluded to) so that deployment figure shows a massive spend outside dublin, bigger than the county distributor you highlight

You're not making much sense. Tripping over yourself here. What's dishonest about my argument? Every county has access to coaches, that's never been denied. Dublin have had access to far more.

For example, have Antrim and Cork had the services of half the coaches Dublin have? Not at all. Every county had below 6 while Dublin had one professional coach for nearly every club.

Are you denying Dublin spent over 50 million on games development since 2002? Are you denying they receive over 2 million in sponsorship every year? Spend 2 million on salaries, over 1.5 million on team expenses?

This is the argument for splitting Dublin. They were overfunded and got increased success from the plan that was drawn up for them. Increased sponsorship followed on and it's snowballed. The finance is obviously also available for 4 counties.

We can't let one county operate on a professional level in an amateur organisation. That's what it comes down to.

The Dominance of Dublin GAA *Mod warning post#1*

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The Dominance of Dublin GAA Mod warning post#1