Player movement

Stan27 · 03-01-2021 10:47pm #1

Looks like there could potentially be a decent player movement due to financial pressure/ overflow of players in certain positions/ position deficits.

What do people think will happen?

One Leinster no8 to go north would make sence.
Munster could so with an openside too i think.

Tim Robbins · 06-01-2021 10:32pm

Stan27 wrote: »

Looks like there could potentially be a decent player movement due to financial pressure/ overflow of players in certain positions/ position deficits.

What do people think will happen?

One Leinster no8 to go north would make sence.
Munster could so with an openside too i think.

I am in favour of this happening. A player like Max Deegan was looking world class and could actually be 4th choice at Leinster for Number 8. I wonder if a player moved for one year or two year with option of a move back would it work better for people?

Certainly think Joey (if fit) should be a Leinster player again and have no issue if Munster took a few other backs.

thomond2006 · 06-01-2021 11:13pm

In most circumstances, Province A aren't going to take Province B's player for a year or two if he's definitely going back to Province B.

sydthebeat · 06-01-2021 11:13pm

There should be a quota where leinster get to sign one world class NIQ for every, say, seven players they provide to the other provinces......

The Lost Sheep · 06-01-2021 11:19pm

Stan27 wrote: »

Looks like there could potentially be a decent player movement due to financial pressure/ overflow of players in certain positions/ position deficits.

What do people think will happen?

One Leinster no8 to go north would make sense.
Munster could so with an openside too i think.

Does it need new thread. kind of discussed in few places already. What backrow would you suggest go north? Munster would be better using their academy options in backrow. a signing from leinster isnt really needed.

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I am in favour of this happening. A player like Max Deegan was looking world class and could actually be 4th choice at Leinster for Number 8. I wonder if a player moved for one year or two year with option of a move back would it work better for people?

Certainly think Joey (if fit) should be a Leinster player again and have no issue if Munster took a few other backs.

What exactly is world class. How much would other provinces want players if theyre only going to be there for 1/2 years before moving back?
Any other side who takes a player wants them to be with them long term and use them to build to future
Why should Carbery if fit be a Leinster player again when there is Byrne x2, Frawley at outhalf, Keenan and others to play full back. What does that achieve exactly??
What backs would be better off in Munster and what positions are Munster really needing a signing from Leinster

sydthebeat wrote: »

There should be a quota where leinster get to sign one world class NIQ for every, say, seven players they provide to the other provinces......

Only the 1? should be at least 3.....

Clegg · 06-01-2021 11:27pm

Neither Deegan nor Carbery should be moving any time soon. The former is rehabbing a knee ligament injury and who knows what's going on with the latter.

Zzippy · 06-01-2021 11:56pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

In most circumstances, Province A aren't going to take Province B's player for a year or two if he's definitely going back to Province B.

Quinn Roux and John Cooney both went to Connacht on loan. They both chose to stay when offered a deal, but the original deals were definitely temporary loan moves.

thomond2006 · 07-01-2021 12:30am

Zzippy wrote: »

Quinn Roux and John Cooney both went to Connacht on loan. They both chose to stay when offered a deal, but the original deals were definitely temporary loan moves.

Their passports were seized Zzippy and they were forced to remain in Galway. I know it and you know it.

Tim Robbins · 07-01-2021 12:30am

thomond2006 wrote: »

In most circumstances, Province A aren't going to take Province B's player for a year or two if he's definitely going back to Province B.

Cian Kelleher and Fionn Carr both left Leinster and came back Just saying I don't think it should be such a big deal It should be seen like the way Tommy Bowe left and came back and so did Sexton.

thomond2006 · 07-01-2021 12:42am

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Cian Kelleher and Fionn Carr both left Leinster and came back Just saying I don't think it should be such a big deal It should be seen like the way Tommy Bowe left and came back and so did Sexton.

I was responding to your specific suggestion of an option to go back to their original province.

Teams aren't going to invest gametime/opportunities into a young player who they believe will almost certainly up and leave after a year.

Zzippy · 07-01-2021 2:18am

thomond2006 wrote: »

I was responding to your specific suggestion of an option to go back to their original province.

Teams aren't going to invest gametime/opportunities into a young player who they believe will almost certainly up and leave after a year.

If he improves the team they will. If he doesn't they won't.

TRC10 · 07-01-2021 4:46am

I can definitely see one of leinster opensides going south, most likely Connors or Penny.

I would have said one of the 10s should leave a few months ago but it looks like Frawley is being developed as a 12 (quite successfully) and Sextons body is on the way out. So that just leaves the 2 Byrnes and Hawkshaw which is fine.

razorblunt · 07-01-2021 11:03am

I think it's fair to say something needs to be done about the Leinster backrow and I don't mean in a "evening things up sense" there's just way too many quality players across the 3 positions.
It's a tough one for Leinster and the players themselves though.

hahashake · 07-01-2021 11:44am

Would be hard to convince a player to move if he wouldn't be first choice at his new province or guaranteed Ireland selection.

Dubinusa · 07-01-2021 2:13pm

I think a lot of lads will move this year. Some of them to England and France. If they can earn more and get at least a couple of years.
I can see Healy looking for a last pay day. Maybe Cronin too.
The move interprovincially for less money may not be enough.
At this stage the IRFU probably will focus on getting as many academy lads promoted as possible. If there's no cash flow. How do they keep the players happy?

The Lost Sheep · 07-01-2021 2:45pm

Dubinusa wrote: »

I think a lot of lads will move this year. Some of them to England and France. If they can earn more and get at least a couple of years.
I can see Healy looking for a last pay day. Maybe Cronin too.
The move interprovincially for less money may not be enough.
At this stage the IRFU probably will focus on getting as many academy lads promoted as possible. If there's no cash flow. How do they keep the players happy?

There isnt going to be any big pay days with covid continuing to affect people going to games.
You talk about cash flow. Well thats going to majorly affect a lot of players chances of going abroad.

Stan27 · 07-01-2021 3:04pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Does it need new thread. kind of discussed in few places already. What backrow would you suggest go north? Munster would be better using their academy options in backrow. a signing from leinster isnt really needed.

What exactly is world class. How much would other provinces want players if theyre only going to be there for 1/2 years before moving back?
Any other side who takes a player wants them to be with them long term and use them to build to future
Why should Carbery if fit be a Leinster player again when there is Byrne x2, Frawley at outhalf, Keenan and others to play full back. What does that achieve exactly??
What backs would be better off in Munster and what positions are Munster really needing a signing from Leinster

Only the 1? should be at least 3.....

Conan or deegan to ulster would suit imo.
Only young 7 in munster is hodnett, they need another one, and leinster have laods fo sevens
1, leavy
2 van der flier
3 conners
4 penny
5 maloney (acadamy)

The Lost Sheep · 07-01-2021 4:55pm

Stan27 wrote: »

Conan or deegan to ulster would suit imo.
Only young 7 in munster is hodnett, they need another one, and leinster have laods fo sevens
1, leavy
2 van der flier
3 conners
4 penny
5 maloney (acadamy)

They dont seem to want it.
Munster have Hodnett, but plenty others who can play 7 and wouldnt worry about that too much

Tim Robbins · 07-01-2021 6:48pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

I was responding to your specific suggestion of an option to go back to their original province.

Teams aren't going to invest gametime/opportunities into a young player who they believe will almost certainly up and leave after a year.

Teams get players funded from the IRFU, they are greatly helped from the IRFU who entice players to stay in Ireland - so all of them need to also think in terms of what is best for Ireland and not just them.

Tim Robbins · 07-01-2021 6:49pm

TRC10 wrote: »

I can definitely see one of leinster opensides going south, most likely Connors or Penny.

I would have said one of the 10s should leave a few months ago but it looks like Frawley is being developed as a 12 (quite successfully) and Sextons body is on the way out. So that just leaves the 2 Byrnes and Hawkshaw which is fine.

with the injury rate of the back row, you will get game time if you are in the top 3 of 6, 7 or 8. But in some cases, Leinster have 4 or 5 who are decent standard so you are right, for their sake and Ireland sake some should go.

The Lost Sheep · 07-01-2021 7:04pm

Tim Robbins wrote: »

with the injury rate of the back row, you will get game time if you are in the top 3 of 6, 7 or 8. But in some cases, Leinster have 4 or 5 who are decent standard so you are right, for their sake and Ireland sake some should go.

Maybe but when there is one or two involved with the irish squad there is plenty of game time for those who are 4th/5th in line in the run of the mill pro14 games and then there is always one or two players injured as well.

And you didnt answer What exactly is world class and how much would other provinces want players if theyre only going to be there for 1/2 years before moving back or why would Carbery be a Leinster player again when there is Byrne x2, Frawley at outhalf, Keenan and others to play full back. What does that achieve exactly??

thomond2006 · 07-01-2021 7:46pm

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Teams get players funded from the IRFU, they are greatly helped from the IRFU who entice players to stay in Ireland - so all of them need to also think in terms of what is best for Ireland and not just them.

Eh, players should do what's best for themselves. They're no different to anyone who's an employee.

Tim Robbins · 07-01-2021 9:34pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

Eh, players should do what's best for themselves. They're no different to anyone who's an employee.

Yeah and so to further their career they should be given possibilities to move to somewhere where they will get a better chance.

What I mean by "all of them" was the provinces.

launish116 · 08-01-2021 12:51am

Who do we foresee looking for game time elsewhere?

Stan27 · 10-01-2024 10:03am

Old thread but still relevant.

Munster and ulster need 10,s.

Ulster ideally another backrow.

Surely as leinster have surpluses in these positions the powers at the top should encourage moves.

Buer · 10-01-2024 11:07am

I've no doubt the moves are encouraged and approaches are made but it's very hard to force people to move. If Leinster want to keep a player and make an offer, another province and make their offer too with the added incentive of increased playing time and argue for an improved pathway to test selection.

But the player might be quite content where they are. They've lives set up, families, friends and are playing for their home team. There's a big draw on that. Guys like Dan Sheehan were approached for moves before they hit the big time but were extremely promising players. They back themselves to succeed and, when young guys see Dan Sheehan (who didn't even become first choice until last season) make a call that works out incredibly well, they're encouraged to stay too.

We've someone like Deegan who has been capped a couple of times when 3rd choice in Leinster. Then you've Timoney who has been playing consistently for Ulster and going really well. He has three caps. I'm not sure Deegan is going to look at that and think moving is the right call for him.

Personally, I'd be disappointed to see it but, in reality, I think the following guys should be encouraged to leave Leinster for better distribution of resources around the provinces:

Max Deegan
Charlie Tector
Ed Byrne (massively underrated player who is only 30)
Lee Barron or John McKee
Brian Deeny
Ben Murphy or Cormac Foley (Murphy finishes in the academy this year and, with Gunne coming through, I don't think they'll carry 4 senior scrum halves)

ec18 · 10-01-2024 11:19am

really provinces aren't going to be interested Leinster failures. ( I know that's a bit harsh but they wouldn't be moving because they had too much game time)

Maybe something like a draft style where every province gets to select 2/3 from their academy and then the rest go into a draft between the provinces?

10-01-2024 11:27am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121595663#Comment_121595663

Other provinces have consistently been interested in what you incorrectly characterise as "Leinster failures" - not being good enough to start at Leinster has never meant you're not good enough to start for any of the other three.

The draft system is a complete nonsense, it weakens Leinster, and rewards the other three provinces for their own historic failures in player production, thus further building a reliance on the Leinster schools system.

pickarooney · 10-01-2024 11:41am

It's a bit easy to repeatedly excoriate the other three provinces for their failure to produce players from the comfortable position Leinster find themselves in, most of which has little to do with the actions of the provincial rugby team itself.

Irish rugby as a whole will always be reliant on the Leinster private schools system as long as the sport remains a niche activity based around schools and not clubs. And that's pretty much always been the case everywhere except France and, for a time, Wales.

10-01-2024 11:52am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121595746#Comment_121595746

Maybe it is, but it doesn't make it incorrect.

The only one I'd give a pass to is Connacht, where they still just don't really have the numbers.

Munster's production has improved significantly in recent years, but that just really highlights how poor it was for effectively the decade before it. Ulster have strong rugby playing areas and lots of talent, they've struggled converting it though.

The notion that these guys just show up out of school as ready made rugby pros is way overblown. Leinster may have the biggest and best funnel of the four provinces without a doubt, but they've also done the best job of converting good prospects into good players for the last decade plus as well.

ec18 · 10-01-2024 11:53am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121595695#Comment_121595695

Leinster have probably the most envious set of circumstances in the world when it comes to player development. They are based in the highest playing population surrounding them, as well as a set of very well funded schools rugby programs which essentially function as a few elite pre academy for them.

To 'reward' the good fee paying parents of South county Dublin. I'd suggest that each province gets 2 first refusals on their own academy with the rest going into the general pool. Let's not pretend that Leinster have no deficiencies either in recent years that would have jumped at the change to get Doak or an Edogbo to fix some of their ongoing issues.

Ulster and Munster have gotten their academies to much better shape in recent years. If you look at the team that finished the URC final this year a large part of them were Munster academy products.

Just two further points, the other provinces have been happy to take some of Leinster's failures due to the way the IRFU run contracting. The simple truth is that it's much easier to get approval for an IQ provincial transfer than the player you might like to get from abroad. It won't weaken Leinster losing depth chart guys, the main aim of the IRFU strategy is for depth at Ireland level. Anything that enhances that will be encouraged

10-01-2024 12:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121595818#Comment_121595818

There is nothing remotely not replicable about Leinster's set up - describing it as the "most envious set of circumstances in the world" is balderdash.

They're located in a relatively large city by global standards, where there are a handful of private schools where rugby is the #1 sport and is well funded in those schools. That's hardly some sort of impossible barrier to entry.

You're implying like there's some sort of obstacle at the moment stopping all the other provinces from attempting to sign Leinster's best prospects as it is. There isn't. Sam Illo is a good example of a guy who Connacht offered a full contract to to lure him there ahead of a Leinster academy contract.

What you're proposing is stopping Leinster from signing players they want to sign who also want to sign for them. That's nonsensical.

I don't dispute Munster's production has improved, and it's come with some improvements in personnel, funding and facilities. That highlights how there isn't a need to permanently change up the system.

ec18 · 10-01-2024 12:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121595861#Comment_121595861

Sorry but to be able to get the concentration of wealth and interest in one sport in a tiny area is unique. If it was easy to do there would be similar set ups around the world but there isn't.

all I'm suggesting is that it would be better for a playing population for players to be playing regularly rather than dying on the vine. For example Charlie Tector, he was a good prospect at u20's. You can't honestly say that he's better off in Leinster than if he was playing more regularly at Connacht or Ulster.

10-01-2024 12:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121595903#Comment_121595903

Leinster have a better track record of playing young players than the other provinces too - once again, it's improved slightly in recent years at Munster, but there are plenty of examples here.

Sam Prendergast has already played more than 2x the minutes for Leinster than Tony Butler has in Munster, despite the ostensibly massive queue in Leinster and the absolute dearth of healthy, alternate options in Munster.

A guy like Matthew Devine, one of the star players on his Irish U20 team, still hasn't even featured for Connacht, while a whole host of guys from his vintage have played multiple times (and Fintan Gunne, the scrum half from the Irish U20s a year later has already made his Leinster debut).

all I'm suggesting is that it would be better for a playing population for players to be playing regularly rather than dying on the vine. For example Charlie Tector, he was a good prospect at u20's. You can't honestly say that he's better off in Leinster than if he was playing more regularly at Connacht or Ulster.

There's nothing to suggest he'd have got any more playing time than the 8 caps he's already gotten for Leinster if he'd gone anywhere else. His halfback partner on his Irish U20s side, and probably one of the best prospects in that squad, Matthew Devine, still hasn't made his debut for Connacht. His understudy on that side, Tony Butler, has played 6 times for Munster over the same period.

Sorry but to be able to get the concentration of wealth and interest in one sport in a tiny area is unique.

This is nonsense btw - there are concentrated pockets of wealth in virtually every major rugby playing nation on Earth (possibly exception for Wales) and the Pacific Isles obviously.

Podge_irl · 10-01-2024 12:28pm

I know it comes up repeatedly, but a draft it never going to happen and I am highly sceptical it would work even if tried. As soon as players start refusing to move or trying to negotiate out of it - which would happen almost immediately - then the whole thing falls apart. You have to remember these are generally not players under contract.

jonok28 · 10-01-2024 12:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121595606#Comment_121595606

Max Deegan - to Ulster, Ewers, Deegan and Timoney would be a really powerful trio.

Rhys Ruddock to Connacht - They could really use his leadership and would be a great mentor to Prendergast

Charlie Tector- Munster, they need depth and he could provide some depth

Ed Byrne- Connacht - They are fairly set a tighthead but could use another loose.

Lee Barron or John McKee - To stay at Leinster- with Kellehers injury history and Sheehan playing lots of minutes, alot of hookers are required.

Brian Deeny - Connacht - He would add decent depth to Connacht

Ben Murphy and Cormac Foley - Stay at Leinster for two more years then one moves on and the other along with Fintan Gunne fight for the 9 jersey.

Leinster would get back Jack Aungier. Connacht have Finley Bealham and Sam Illo at tighthead. Yes Aungier is having a good season and is getting good game time and I would expect uproar in Leinster getting him but he was a Leinster player first and Leinster are deficient at Tighthead and him coming back would be massively helpful to Leinster and it would avoid Leinster using a NIQ designation on a tighthead.

Mr Tickle · 10-01-2024 1:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121596011#Comment_121596011

I'm not sure Connacht would want Ruddock at the moment. Maybe if Hurley-Langton or Sean Jansen are moving on, but I think they'd prefer to offer one of them a higher paying contract rather than taking Ruddock for the last year or two of is career. And in terms of a mentor for Prendergast, Ruddock wears John Muldoon pajamas.

ulsteru20s · 10-01-2024 2:53pm

edit delete

ulsteru20s · 10-01-2024 2:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121596011#Comment_121596011

Worst deal ever for Connacht. In this scenario, if Deeny works out does he go back to Leinster as well?

It really handicaps connacht if the minute they do find a diamond from leinster that they go back. They already lost their probably best player ever to Leinster.

I would love deegan. Would be a great addition and someone for McNabney to learn from.

Not sure if Munster would want Tector. He’s too close to Butler in experience.

jonok28 · 10-01-2024 3:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121596736#Comment_121596736

I'm just floating the idea of it happening in regards to Aungier. I am fairly confident that Leinster won't be allowed to poach any players from the provinces for a while after the Snyman deal.

Tim Robbins · 10-01-2024 4:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121595982#Comment_121595982

You're right there. It's an extra appeal to play for you grew up supporting and thinking about and is another way for us to compete against French clubs you pay more money. Second option is going to another province which isn't as good but sure they'e your cousins.

jonok28 · 10-01-2024 4:27pm

I wonder would Munster consider AJ McGinty as a replacement for Joey Carbery. I doubt very highly they would go the controversial route and bring in Paddy Jackson. Both players are out of contract next year.

I can see them wanting to keep a NIQ spot open for a hooker.

pickarooney · 10-01-2024 6:26pm

McGinty is NIQ though, might as well bring in someone like Lima Sopoaga.

10-01-2024 6:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121597987#Comment_121597987

Yeah - played for USA as recently as last year, and is currently 33. He'd be 35 by the time he was Irish eligible and was never good enough to begin with.

ulsteru20s · 10-01-2024 6:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121597441#Comment_121597441

Freddie Burns? He seems a decent option.

ulsteru20s · 10-01-2024 7:06pm

There is a rumour on the leinster fan site that frawley has re-signed fwiw.

ersatz · 10-01-2024 8:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121595982#Comment_121595982

I disagree that the IRFU does not have the power to decide where young players go. They are the employer after all. If they wanted they could simply make a list at the start of each season and divvy young/academy players up among provinces, offer said players those contracts and that would be that. Players could choose to go abroad, return to clubs as amateurs or accept the contract on offer. The provinces would be in no position to offer other contracts to players as they are controlled by the union. It would be unpopular but the argument that it is unworkable does not hold up.

10-01-2024 8:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121598499#Comment_121598499

Yeah, that definitely sounds like an environment conducive to getting the best out of those players.

English and French clubs would be the biggest fans of this proposal.

ulsteru20s · 10-01-2024 8:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121598499#Comment_121598499

You can’t make guys making 8-10k a year and have to make decisions about school just go wherever.

At the very least say goodbye to anyone who has the option to play high level GAA.

ersatz · 10-01-2024 9:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121598589#Comment_121598589

It wouldn't be popular, but my point is that the IRFU could do it and it could become the template for player development. Someone earlier said it wouldn't be workable. It would be workable because the IRFU holds all the cards. We've had this argument on here many times. Players can't be forced to do anything, but they can be presented with options from which they have to choose. Going back to your club, playing GAA or going to England would be options. Picking your favourite province or deciding you only want to live in Dublin to be near your girlfriend and playing pro rugby may not be options. The schools argument is similar, Belfast, Galway and Limerick have excellent universities and higher ed options. And on the England/Wales/France thing, having young players cut their teeth abroad is not the end of the world. It worked out well for Tommy Bowe and Beirne, perhaps Jaegar too. People seem to regard this as a human rights thing, but that's not the IRFU remit, theirs is to maximise resources to produce success for provinces and the Irish team while developing the game.

ulsteru20s · 10-01-2024 9:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121598662#Comment_121598662

But don’t you think our current system maximizes resources more than the one you propose?

Player movement

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