Player movement

Buer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121599787#Comment_121599787

You can tell people to get a grip but if you don't think that such a system would be incredibly damaging both on a relationship level as well as an operational level to Irish rugby very quickly, I think you'd want to look closer to home.

This isn't a Leinster thing. Munster have a great crop of locks coming through in the last few years. Under this approach, a likely move would be to tell Evan O'Connell he's only being offered a contract in Belfast. It's a blueprint for irreparably damaging the working relationship between players and the IRFU as well as infuriating fans. Sure, it would work in a number of cases. But we'd also see an unprecedented number of players lost to Irish rugby. Ulster, in particular, would get absolutely shafted if they had a productive crop coming through given they are already fighting an exodus every year of young people moving to Britain. Their players would happily move across the water rather than to Limerick or Galway.

Lord Palmerston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121599628#Comment_121599628

Yeah, sure, no one is denying the IRFU could, of course, force the structure you're outlining onto the system and provinces. But maybe you should ask yourself why they haven't?

You're not really outlining at all what the proposed benefits would be of your supposed structure, while you appear to be acknowledging some obvious weaknesses (when you acknowledge some players will say "f** this" and head to England etc).

Young players who are talented enough are already getting good levels of gametime. Leinster probably give more gametime to young players than any of the four provinces over the past 8-10 years.

So what's the actual point or purpose of your needlessly disruptive proposal?

AdamD

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121600842#Comment_121600842

There is a notion that the provinces need to be balanced by the IRFU, therefore move some of Leinster's better prospects across the country. I disagree with this but I think that's the purpose. I think all 4 provinces are reasonably strong as is and I'd say the IRFU agree.

pickarooney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121600006#Comment_121600006

You'll be working more in France though.

And if you're a 20-year-old you're basically putting your studies on hold indefinitely and that's likely to cost you dearly when you're older. If you can handle moving to a new country, switching universities and studying in French on top of a full-time pro contract in the lower leagues, fair play to you.

If you're early-mid 20s you're writing off your international career. If you're not good enough for international rugby you may not be good enough to get a non-JIFF place on a French team's roster. You're probably looking at ProD2 at best.

If you're late 20s, early 30s you're likely to have a partner and maybe children to consider and if they can't/won't move to France it complicates things.

It's not extremely simple but there are some players for whom it's an attractive option. Joey Carbery is maybe one of those as his Ireland career looks dead, he's nearly finished his Masters, his first child isn't born yet and as an ex-international (which he would be if he moved abroad) could start for a mid-table Top14 club if he stays fit.

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121601055#Comment_121601055

That's all true. But financially a young Lad moving to another province would be on buttons. If a player went abroad it would surely be for financial reasons. South Africans don't seem to mind moving.

pickarooney

A South African playing in France could feasibly support a family back home on the wages. An Irish player couldn't. There's so many players with only 4/5 real pro clubs that they need to get out as well. Most know they'll never be capped and the top players aren't prevented from playing for the Springboks so there are several vital differences from Irish players.

There are tons of Saffers playing in France and England. It'd be interesting to see the age profiles.

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121600842#Comment_121600842

Like almost everything written here it’s theoretical. Heads up - we are just fans **** talking on the internet. The name of the thread should give away why I’m outlining that the IRFU, if it wanted, could move players around at will because it is the body that underwrites contracts. Should they move players around more than they do and systematise it? I’m not convinced it would make a great deal of difference. In the case of certain players, yes, they probably would have been better off at a different province earlier in their careers. I’ve named Penny as one case, I’m sure there are others. There are counter examples that show the system is fairly well functioning like Conway. For me the most compelling argument for a systematic approach is the fact that we didn’t have a deep enough squad to rotate at the WC, even though we had very few players benched through injury. I imagine that is areal issue for the IRFU brains trust. It certainly should be.

Most of the arguments against are cultural, that’s not how we do things. Hmmm.

Podge_irl

We absolutely had a deep enough squad to rotate at the WC, it was a tactical decision not to do so.

Lord Palmerston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121602519#Comment_121602519

My arguments against haven't been what you've described as cultural - it's just I don't feel you've outlined any material positives for a relatively material change in process.

We're always going to be severely challenged at the very top table internationally on depth - it's a function of being such a small country. France underperformed to an even greater extent when you consider the enormous playing resources they had at their disposal, so I'm not convinced ripping up the way we do things is going to change things here dramatically.

I've said it multiple times on here - but ultimately we have to keep investing in expanding our underage player development pathways. We're already as reliant as we can ever be on the Blackrock / Michaels route. The solutions to improving Ireland aren't weakening that pathway or spreading it more thinly across all four provinces, it's finding ways to replicate what those schools are doing in more parts of the country.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121602820#Comment_121602820

This, it was a tactical decision for years to lean on cohesion and keep the trusted group small.

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121602934#Comment_121602934

What’s a small group tho’. We had less rotation than anyone else among the top teams. Why would we choose a tactic that risks running out of steam when successful teams don’t do that? I agree w Palmerston that with a relatively small playing pool we are always challenged in the depth table but that’s different to saying we are choosing to forgo depth in favour of a tighter frontline group with maximum experience. That’s harder to believe.

@Lord Palmerston the advantage would be to have fewer players at Leinster (maybe elsewhere, wingers at Ulster occasionally) who aren’t getting meaningful game time in their early 20s. Maybe that makes a difference to their development, maybe it doesn’t. I don’t think it’s in conflict with the idea of resourcing the grassroots/development components.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121603250#Comment_121603250

This has been discussed in depth, but we rotated more in the warm ups than other teams without ever playing our real first team. Sexton's ban partly played into this I am sure. But given how the fixtures fell it was viewed as the best way to build up to the QF.

It was clearly a deliberate decision, and not an action forced by a lack of depth. Farrell went from capping more players than any other coach in the world cup cycle to focusing on his core group in the final year. Pretty much the only position I Would question this at is 7, otherwise it wasn't the cause of our problems.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121600081#Comment_121600081

Agree with this. You mention the fans part here but I see it as being far too understated in the overall conversation here.

Part of the benefit of the current approach is that the core of each province is being developed with local lads that the fans can connect with. These players grow up as fans of the team, coming through local schools and clubs - some fans know them, their friends, or family or played with or against them. It is clear that in most cases trophy wins mean more to the local player.

That is not to say that imports, either foreign or from other provinces, cant become fan favourites or care for the team but a local kid coming through to be a star just hits different for all involved.

It is pretty unique within rugby and even broader professional sport to have such high proportion of players fans can associate with like this and it is a differentiator. Diluting that with a draft system for minimal, if any, benefit is killing a goose that lays the golden eggs from a fan perspective, that is before even getting into all the potential issues from a player perspective, that have been discussed here already in more detail.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121603966#Comment_121603966

The ideal situation for a successful Ulster and Munster are that all or mostly all of the core elite players are from their province, and then the squad is filled out with surplus Leinster and IQ players from abroad, plus 2/3/4 NIQs. That to me is a viable model.

Connacht will obviously have more Leinster players but honestly their homegrown talent is noticeably ticking up as well.

So, yea i hate the idea of forcing guys to move.

slingerz

i think a player should have ambtions for themselves to be playing in the big games and should back themselves to push on.

also should be realistic about what their place in the depth chart is and take coaches chat at contract time with a pinch of salt.

Take Frawley as an example, hes not in the conversation for outhalf, he's 3rd choice at best, hes 2nd/3rd choice 12 with Henshaw & Osbourne and hes 2nd choice 15 with Keenan.

His way into the 23 is as utility player on the bench but hes always at risk of the next player coming through pushing him further down the chart.

For me he should def be looking to move, Munster possibly but if he wants to be an outhalf he'd be 2nd to Crowley, he'll probably be 1st choice 12 when Nankivell leaves. I think he should be looking at Ulster and thinking he can be 1st choice outhalf there ahead of Burns or Flannery. His utility shouldnt be as required there either

Lord Palmerston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121605822#Comment_121605822

Frawley isn't a guy who has struggled to get minutes - when he's been healthy he's almost always been in the Leinster 23. He missed the bulk of last season with injuries, but has already racked up 753 minutes so far this season for Leinster (out of a maximum 880). He's played in 11 games, starting 8 of them.

This notion that he isn't getting enough gametime or exposure just doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

He hasn't managed to push past the guys ahead of him up to now, either at 10, 12 or 15, has just been because they're better players at this point in time, but that changes.

If he really sees himself as a 10 and that's the position he wants to go for then he should consider moving this summer, but to Ulster or Connacht, but other than that, he's developing just fine where he is.

Downlinz

I think Max Deegan is the cautionary tale of what happens to a young high potential player who sits in the reserves for too long and what player movement should seek to prevent. It's too late for Max Deegan himself, he ruined his career by staying too long at a team with too much competition but had he moved at 23 who knows where he'd be now.

ec18

also going on about moving away from their family like we're sending them to a different continent, the further away they'd be is two or three hours. It's Ireland not America or France

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121605888#Comment_121605888

That could easily go the other way though especially for Ireland. It is a risky path to ‘specialize’ as a utility which he is kind of doing from a national pov.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121605926#Comment_121605926

dial down the hyperbole there....

"ruined his career" is a completely ridiculous thing to say about a 27 year old.

Deegan is a very valuable member of Leinster squad. Last season he played every single minute of the last 8 rounds of the URC, including QF and SF. He was also involved in ireland training camps and had an 'off the bench' test appearance against Fiji. If thats "ruining your career" then we are all fcuked!

taking your hypothetical "he should have moved" opinion, he could also have had a 'JJ Hanrahan' career where he was a great prospect at u20s level but had very much a "never met his potential" career being a journeyman and never being the stone cold first choice in his position.

Deegan still has time, and im sure a test career is still forefront in his mind. Hes already found out that not being 1st choice at leinster is not a hindrance to getting into an ireland squad, and as i said, only being 27 does not mean his career is over. He has seen the likes of Jordi Murphy move province for more gametime yet not feature at test level, so where's the carrot?

So far he has 4 celtic league medals and an HC medal in his cabinet. Many a better player has gone through their career with very little to show for it.

Paul Smeenus

Jordi Murphy was called into the 2019 RWC squad whilst at Ulster, but got injured. So it worked for him, he just had a poorly timed injury.

If he wants a "carrot", maybe look at Timoney - slightly older, much less feted, a much less star-strewn rise through the ranks, didn't get offered an Academy place at Leinster and now has an Ireland cap more than Deegan?

Interested Observer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121607231#Comment_121607231

Tbh, don't really know if Murphy's status changed much or you could say it worked for him at Ulster any more than it did at Leinster in an international context. His last game for Leinster was starting and winning a Euro cup final. He was in-and-out of Ireland squads/teams before leaving and after leaving Leinster. I don't really know if being at Ulster boosted his chances of going to that RWC any more than it would have if he'd stayed put.

In fact his career tailed off significantly at Ulster, he dropped totally off the radar, he's still only 32.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121605926#Comment_121605926

Plenty of 'cautionary tales' out there for any decision a player could make. There are very good arguments that the 3 highest profile players that made the direct move from Leinster to Munster are 'cautionary tales' why players shouldn't consider it - saw a joke about Leo Cullen sticking on his office wall the article of Carbury now moving abroad.

Donnacha Ryan is another player who one could see as a cautionary tale, in the same way as you're saying Deegan might be. He was approaching 30 before he got into the starting team for big games, having been blocked by POC, DOC, MOD but never moving until later in his career. If he'd moved to Leinster in his early 20s he could have been a cornerstone of that incredibly successful period, been one of Ireland's most decorated players at club level, have many more Irish caps, and earned a hell of a lot more money.

It is impossible to know what the 'right' decision is for a player at a given point in time.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121607501#Comment_121607501

I don't think they're really comparable.

Donnacha Ryan has 47 Ireland caps. I don't think Deegan is likely to get anywhere close to that, tbh.

ec18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121607160#Comment_121607160

Would you not consider him a journeyman as it is?

He is essentially, if the Leo is taking the game seriously Deegan is on the bench at best (assuming everyones fit) We can all name the starting back row if Cullen both respects the opponent and considers it a must win game Deegan won't be in it.

He's a journeyman just at Leinster. He hasn't ruined his career by any means, but maybe limited it a bit. Leinster players have an easier path to Irish caps largely due to Leinster and Ireland have pretty similar game plans and will likely to continue to have for the next cycle as well since Goodman is going to the Irish set up.

He probably could have made more money in France, he might have more HC's if he moved away from Leinster.

Munster probably have the better track record of success with Leinster players like Conway, Jones and Loughman. Carbery was very unfortunate the way 2019 went for him which was more a set of Ireland decisions more than anything provincial.

Lord Palmerston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121607537#Comment_121607537

He still only had a smattering of them prior to 2010 / 2011, when he was c. 27 years of age. The vast bulk of his caps came after that point.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121607553#Comment_121607553

Yep, and I don't see the same happening with Deegan.

ec18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121607553#Comment_121607553

Ryan was lucky in a sense that when he picked up the bulk of his caps there was a shortage of high level locks. You can't say the same about the back row. Deegan doesn't even make the Leinster bench most of the time

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121607537#Comment_121607537

The OP says it is 'too late' for Deegan despite him already reaching his 100 caps for Leinster a year sooner than Ryan did at Munster.

If anything, pointing at Ryan's Irish caps makes the case even stronger about what he could/should have achieved if he moved in his early 20s when his way was blocked at Munster - he might have more than double those Irish caps.

We don't have evidence yet that Deegan can get to top international level but we do have it for Ryan and he was absolutely held back from getting there sooner by staying at Munster.

It is an inconvenient truth for the case a certain fanbase and media heads that Ryan is probably the best example of a top level Irish player being held back until so deep into their career by a blockage in front of them and them not moving. It is made worse by it being a huge need at other provinces at the same time.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121599787#Comment_121599787

Again as I posted Ireland has been very succesfull in the last few years, most countries envy our system

Why should we change it? especially when you consider the people demanding it gets changed is not for the good of Ireland, but for the good of their province. Now maybe this is not the case here but it seems like it.

One of the huge plus's of the Ireland system is young player can stay at home and work in the system right up to international level which means a higher rate of success. Sending kids over to England when 16, has it really worked? the only reason this is done is because the IRFU are a joke and they can't put together a competition that would allow kids to work in Ireland and then move to England when more mature. By the way how is the soccer team getting on.

If you think players won't leave the system because once they turn a certain age they will be told to move and go to XYZ then you are deluded. See what happen when Madigan was told he had to move to Munster? he walked out and was lost to the system. Plenty more players will feel the same. What would happen if Coombes was told he was going to Leinster?

Pushing players from one province to another had nothing to do with the players. That;s the number 1 issue you have.