Player movement

Lord Palmerston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121595818#Comment_121595818

There is nothing remotely not replicable about Leinster's set up - describing it as the "most envious set of circumstances in the world" is balderdash.

They're located in a relatively large city by global standards, where there are a handful of private schools where rugby is the #1 sport and is well funded in those schools. That's hardly some sort of impossible barrier to entry.

You're implying like there's some sort of obstacle at the moment stopping all the other provinces from attempting to sign Leinster's best prospects as it is. There isn't. Sam Illo is a good example of a guy who Connacht offered a full contract to to lure him there ahead of a Leinster academy contract.

What you're proposing is stopping Leinster from signing players they want to sign who also want to sign for them. That's nonsensical.

I don't dispute Munster's production has improved, and it's come with some improvements in personnel, funding and facilities. That highlights how there isn't a need to permanently change up the system.

ec18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121595861#Comment_121595861

Sorry but to be able to get the concentration of wealth and interest in one sport in a tiny area is unique. If it was easy to do there would be similar set ups around the world but there isn't.

all I'm suggesting is that it would be better for a playing population for players to be playing regularly rather than dying on the vine. For example Charlie Tector, he was a good prospect at u20's. You can't honestly say that he's better off in Leinster than if he was playing more regularly at Connacht or Ulster.

Lord Palmerston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121595903#Comment_121595903

Leinster have a better track record of playing young players than the other provinces too - once again, it's improved slightly in recent years at Munster, but there are plenty of examples here.

Sam Prendergast has already played more than 2x the minutes for Leinster than Tony Butler has in Munster, despite the ostensibly massive queue in Leinster and the absolute dearth of healthy, alternate options in Munster.

A guy like Matthew Devine, one of the star players on his Irish U20 team, still hasn't even featured for Connacht, while a whole host of guys from his vintage have played multiple times (and Fintan Gunne, the scrum half from the Irish U20s a year later has already made his Leinster debut).

all I'm suggesting is that it would be better for a playing population for players to be playing regularly rather than dying on the vine. For example Charlie Tector, he was a good prospect at u20's. You can't honestly say that he's better off in Leinster than if he was playing more regularly at Connacht or Ulster.

There's nothing to suggest he'd have got any more playing time than the 8 caps he's already gotten for Leinster if he'd gone anywhere else. His halfback partner on his Irish U20s side, and probably one of the best prospects in that squad, Matthew Devine, still hasn't made his debut for Connacht. His understudy on that side, Tony Butler, has played 6 times for Munster over the same period.

Sorry but to be able to get the concentration of wealth and interest in one sport in a tiny area is unique. 

This is nonsense btw - there are concentrated pockets of wealth in virtually every major rugby playing nation on Earth (possibly exception for Wales) and the Pacific Isles obviously.

Podge_irl

I know it comes up repeatedly, but a draft it never going to happen and I am highly sceptical it would work even if tried. As soon as players start refusing to move or trying to negotiate out of it - which would happen almost immediately - then the whole thing falls apart. You have to remember these are generally not players under contract.

jonok28

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121595606#Comment_121595606

Max Deegan - to Ulster, Ewers, Deegan and Timoney would be a really powerful trio.

Rhys Ruddock to Connacht - They could really use his leadership and would be a great mentor to Prendergast

Charlie Tector- Munster, they need depth and he could provide some depth

Ed Byrne- Connacht - They are fairly set a tighthead but could use another loose.

Lee Barron or John McKee - To stay at Leinster- with Kellehers injury history and Sheehan playing lots of minutes, alot of hookers are required.

Brian Deeny - Connacht - He would add decent depth to Connacht

Ben Murphy and Cormac Foley - Stay at Leinster for two more years then one moves on and the other along with Fintan Gunne fight for the 9 jersey.

Leinster would get back Jack Aungier. Connacht have Finley Bealham and Sam Illo at tighthead. Yes Aungier is having a good season and is getting good game time and I would expect uproar in Leinster getting him but he was a Leinster player first and Leinster are deficient at Tighthead and him coming back would be massively helpful to Leinster and it would avoid Leinster using a NIQ designation on a tighthead.

Mr Tickle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121596011#Comment_121596011

I'm not sure Connacht would want Ruddock at the moment. Maybe if Hurley-Langton or Sean Jansen are moving on, but I think they'd prefer to offer one of them a higher paying contract rather than taking Ruddock for the last year or two of is career. And in terms of a mentor for Prendergast, Ruddock wears John Muldoon pajamas.

ulsteru20s

edit delete

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121596011#Comment_121596011

Worst deal ever for Connacht. In this scenario, if Deeny works out does he go back to Leinster as well?

It really handicaps connacht if the minute they do find a diamond from leinster that they go back. They already lost their probably best player ever to Leinster.

I would love deegan. Would be a great addition and someone for McNabney to learn from.

Not sure if Munster would want Tector. He’s too close to Butler in experience.

jonok28

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121596736#Comment_121596736

I'm just floating the idea of it happening in regards to Aungier. I am fairly confident that Leinster won't be allowed to poach any players from the provinces for a while after the Snyman deal.

Tim Robbins

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121595982#Comment_121595982

You're right there. It's an extra appeal to play for you grew up supporting and thinking about and is another way for us to compete against French clubs you pay more money. Second option is going to another province which isn't as good but sure they'e your cousins.

jonok28

I wonder would Munster consider AJ McGinty as a replacement for Joey Carbery. I doubt very highly they would go the controversial route and bring in Paddy Jackson. Both players are out of contract next year.

I can see them wanting to keep a NIQ spot open for a hooker.

pickarooney

McGinty is NIQ though, might as well bring in someone like Lima Sopoaga.

Lord Palmerston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121597987#Comment_121597987

Yeah - played for USA as recently as last year, and is currently 33. He'd be 35 by the time he was Irish eligible and was never good enough to begin with.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121597441#Comment_121597441

Freddie Burns? He seems a decent option.

ulsteru20s

There is a rumour on the leinster fan site that frawley has re-signed fwiw.

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121595982#Comment_121595982

I disagree that the IRFU does not have the power to decide where young players go. They are the employer after all. If they wanted they could simply make a list at the start of each season and divvy young/academy players up among provinces, offer said players those contracts and that would be that. Players could choose to go abroad, return to clubs as amateurs or accept the contract on offer. The provinces would be in no position to offer other contracts to players as they are controlled by the union. It would be unpopular but the argument that it is unworkable does not hold up.

Lord Palmerston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121598499#Comment_121598499

Yeah, that definitely sounds like an environment conducive to getting the best out of those players.

English and French clubs would be the biggest fans of this proposal.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121598499#Comment_121598499

You can’t make guys making 8-10k a year and have to make decisions about school just go wherever.

At the very least say goodbye to anyone who has the option to play high level GAA.

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121598589#Comment_121598589

It wouldn't be popular, but my point is that the IRFU could do it and it could become the template for player development. Someone earlier said it wouldn't be workable. It would be workable because the IRFU holds all the cards. We've had this argument on here many times. Players can't be forced to do anything, but they can be presented with options from which they have to choose. Going back to your club, playing GAA or going to England would be options. Picking your favourite province or deciding you only want to live in Dublin to be near your girlfriend and playing pro rugby may not be options. The schools argument is similar, Belfast, Galway and Limerick have excellent universities and higher ed options. And on the England/Wales/France thing, having young players cut their teeth abroad is not the end of the world. It worked out well for Tommy Bowe and Beirne, perhaps Jaegar too. People seem to regard this as a human rights thing, but that's not the IRFU remit, theirs is to maximise resources to produce success for provinces and the Irish team while developing the game.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121598662#Comment_121598662

But don’t you think our current system maximizes resources more than the one you propose?

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121598685#Comment_121598685

I think you are misunderstanding what Im saying. I am agnostic on the whole thing frankly, as Palmerston pointed out its not as if there is a batch of payers in Leinster who might/would be getting more top end game time elsewhere and Im not sure the issue is with younger players. To me its more about guys like Penny who has a lot of promise but has not had any great run of top end games (this season may be his breakthrough tho), and there are a few others in the same boat, but again I'm not sure they'd be much better off at another province. And if players in their mid 20s are moving abroad as they fall down the pecking order at Leinster then maybe it would be better if some off those guys had gone abroad earlier in the careers where they might have had better development opportunities. As in the case of Beirne (and maybe Jaegar) that might be better for team Ireland in the long run. On the question of maximising resources I think there is a question there. The failure to advance in this years World Cup suggests to me that we are missing a trick somewhere along the line. The lack of squad rotation in the competition begs the question about why we don't have a bigger squad of players who are at the requisite level to compete at a world level.

What's interesting to me is the principle that the IRFU could, if they chose, move players around at will and decide early on that while Leinster schools produce the lions share of players it doesn't/shouldn't follow that they are by default Leinster players.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121598662#Comment_121598662

Ireland had been number 1 in the World for the longest time a NH team was, they won a Grand Slam, they have been successful for the last 10 years more than ever before.

Forcing kids to move away from home/family etc would be the worst decision ever for the IRFU to do. They would ruin their reputation, the reputation of rugby in Ireland and lose thousands of young players to the sport if they implemented that.

Long term you would cripple the entire system of rugby in Ireland. Somehow I doubt anyone in the IRFU or any club would support such a proposal

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121599029#Comment_121599029

The IRFU are already responsible for the academy system, the academies in the provinces are IRFU staff.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121598662#Comment_121598662

It would not be workable and would fall apart very, very quickly. It would require the IRFU to be willing to let multiple players fall out of the system completely. If the likes of Edogbo said "nah, I don't want to move to Belfast", do you think we are really better off letting him leave Irish rugby - the pushback on this would be enormous. It would not survive the first few cases of players rejecting it.

I would add that players leaving the academy are often in the middle of their university studies and can not just move on a whim.

It's not a "human rights" thing, its just being a pretty **** employer to your employees with the least leverage who may not take particularly kindly to it. If you start telling our best prospects at 20 years old "you're moving to Galway or you're not playing professional rugby in Ireland" then it is not going to create the kind of environment where these players will thrive and it won't exactly engender much loyalty. They are not commodities to be passed around as the IRFU sees fit.

There is nothing stopping a province offering a contract offer to an academy player from another province and it has happened in the past.

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121599370#Comment_121599370

We'll have to agree to disagree. Yes its possible the rugby would lose players, it already does for lots of reasons some of which could be avoided. But if that became the path to pro rugby kids would still go for it. It is the way of pro sport the world over and the wheel keeps turning. The IRFU would be telling our best prospects, 'hey, here's a pro contract with a path way to a great career and the prospect of playing for your country'. You seem to think moving a hundred miles down the road is some sort of punishment, these are professional sporting contracts, moving to a different town for your job is absolutely normal. If a player sulks off because he has to move to play I'm not sure he's cut out for pro rugby to begin with and I'm absolutely certain that is how selectors and coaches would see it.

Provinces do what they are told, end of story. IRFU writes the cheques. And professional players actually are commodities in the way employees are to any firm. If you ask the question are they or aren't they then the answer is yes, they are employees into whom very large investments are made. In any sports team culture is very important but its also a cut throat business, if you aren't cutting it you're gone, if you get a serious injury you are finished, etc. Teams will support players per the investment they've made but they won't think twice about not renewing contracts, its business. Players get dropped, parked, overlooked. Let's not kid ourselves that this is family or that the fan vision of these teams is fully accurate. It's kill or be killed and the executives and coaches who don't make the tough calls get killed too (except maybe the suits outside the coaching staff in Munster 😉).

Wegians89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121598176#Comment_121598176

If Frawley has re-signed then could easily see both Harry Byrne and Tector move on in the summer. Wouldn’t be surprised if there was a real shake up at 10 next season leaving something like:

Leinster: Ross Byrne, Frawley, Prendergast

Munster: Crowley, Hanrahan, Butler

Ulster: Harry Byrne, Flannery, Burns

Connacht: Carty, Tector, West / Naughton

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121599029#Comment_121599029

You mean like all the current ex Leinster schools players who are already playing for provinces that are not Leinster?

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121599277#Comment_121599277

This is near hysterical. "Forcing kids to move away from their families"..."lose thousands of young players".."cripple the entire system"... the people we are talking about are 20 year olds or older, they are pro athletes ffs. You think olympic swimmers or track and field athletes are crying about moving away from their families, or soccer players who go to England at 16? Get a grip. I suspect there is some sort of short circuit for some posters when it comes to rugby and Dublin schools/Leinster. When I mentioned human rights earlier I wasn't kidding. Some posters feel like pushing players between provinces for the sake of the teams is abusive.

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121599787#Comment_121599787

I'd go where the money is. Simple as that. I'd rather go to France for more money than move to another province for the same wage.

Buer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121598146#Comment_121598146

I've no doubt that approach was made previously (Irish rugby would be fairly silly not to). But he's 34 in a few months and now playing in Japan for his pension. I'd imagine that's where his mind is at and concerned with feathering his nest. Would still be worth an approach for a 1 year deal to give them some breathing space.