The Leinster Championship is dead.

Sonny678

Uncle Pierre wrote: »

I've an issue with how it's starting to be bandied around here as "fact" that Dublin were underachieving. By what measure?

They were always the second most successful county in terms of All-Ireland final victories, behind only Kerry, with its huge and unique footballing tradition.

If Dublin were "underachieving" during the spell 1995 to 2003/'04, when the money started to flow in, then surely Kerry are underachieving now? They only won one All-Ireland in the decade 2010 to 2019. Never before in the entire history of the GAA did they only win one All-Ireland in a decade. So should they not start getting massive extra funding now too, to develop structures to put them back "where they should be"?

Am going back again too to my earlier point about Cork hurling. They've only two provincial titles in the past 15 years, and no All-Ireland since 2005. It's by far their leanest spell ever. How about some money for them, to help put them back "where they should be"?

Even take Wexford hurling, which is the closest thing to my heart. Wexford competed in 11 All-Ireland hurling finals between 1951 and 1977. We've only been in one final since then. Maybe we can get a few quid too?

Dublin did underachieve. They didnt win their first leinster till 1955 and first All Ireland til 1958.

The first 15 All Irelands were won by kerry men and country lads. Notice there was little talk about 3 in a row Dublin 20s teams when Dubs were going for 3 in a row recently. Because those 20s teaam were full of kery players from western seaboard counties and very few Dubs. Kildares greatest footballer ever larry Stanley was on that Dublin team of 20s. A Wicklow club won one of Dublins early All Irelands, 15 Wicklow men from Bray Emmets won Sam for Dublin. In the early 40s in 1941 Dubs played kerry in an All Ireland semi final and the best kerry player in the final was playing for Dublin and the best footballer on the field was a longford playing for Dublin. Two Dublin men were on that team 13 players from the west of Ireland and south of Ireland and midlands were the other 13 player representibg Dublin. Dublin have 7 hurling All Ireland yet only 2 men born in Dublin have All Ireland hurling medals.

Take All Ireland final of 1942 between Galway v Dublin . The Dublin team was full of kerry men, Longford, Sligo and Wickow men and Galwaymen. The two centre field playerw who played for Dubs in thet final were two kerry men Fahey and Fitzgerald. Galway man R Beggs was playing for Dublin against his native county that day also. He won All Ireland with Galway in 30s and played for Dubs in 40s. The full back on that Dublin was J kelly a kerryman. C Boland who played on Dublin half back line was a Westmeath man. P Henry also in the half back line was a teacher from Sligo. M Fahey and J Fitzgerald were the two kerrymen at centrefield that day for Dublin when they played Galway in 1942 All Ireland final. in the Dublin forwards was another kerryman G Joy a native of killorgan county kerry. M Flectcher was from Tippearay who was another Dublin forward that day. The Dublin freetaker was T Banks a longford man. Take Bobby Beggs who was on that Dublin team in 1942. He played for Galway in 1938 1940 and 1941 All Ireland finals v kerry. In 1942 he was playing for Dublin against his native Galway after playing for Galway in 3 of the previous 4 All Ireland finals

That is pretty much Dublins All Irelands up to late 40s and early 50s until you have St Vincents players all representing Dublin. In 1958 10 St Vincent player are on Dublin team who win Sam. In 1953 league final win there was 14 St Vincents on Dublin winning team. The Dublin team as we know it begin in late 40s and early 50s, thats when Dublin won All Ireland like everyone else. The vast majority of your 15 players are from your own county. This mean 1958 is really Dublins first All Ireland. Dublin was underachieving since the 20s onwards.

Between 1930 and 1957, those 27 years Dublin won 1 All Ireland. Compare Dublins record to kerry with exception of mid 70s Dubs were underachieving.

1 Dublin won 11 of their first All Irelands before 1910. The game doesnt really become a real national competition til 1940s. The competition in the early years is between a couple of counties. Its not til 30s and 40s game becomes a national game and All Ireland championship is more competitive.
2 Between 1924 and 1957, in those 33 years Dublin won 1 All Ireland
3 Dublin went 11 years without winning leinster title from 1963 to 1974.
4 Between 1978 to 2011 ublin won 2 All Ireland in 33 years eg 1983 and 1995
5 Dublin went 15 years without playing in an All Ireland final from 1996 to 2011.

Conpare decades All Ireland wins kerry & Dubs, when Dublin start to play Dublin players on Dublin teams

Kerry won 5 in the 30s Dubs won 0 in 30s
Kerry won 2 in 40s Dublin won 1 in 40s
Kerry won 3 in 50s Dublin won 1 in 50s
Kerry won 2 in 60s Dublin won 1 in 60s
Kerry won 4 in 70s Dublin won 3 in 70s
Kerry won 5 in 80s Dublin won 1 in 80s
Kerry won 1 in 90s Dublin won 1 in 90s
Kerry won 5 in 00s Dublin won 0 in 00s

From the foundation of the state in 1921 to 2010 Dublin won 9 All Irelands and kerry won 30 All Irelands.
From the foundatiom of the state in 1921 Dublin won 9 All Ireland and Meath won 7 All Irelands in the same period even though Meath was a rural county with small spare population of 66000 in 1967 when Meath won Sam

. Dublin won 1 All Ireland in 40s Meath with a population off 66000 won 1 All Ireland in 40s. Dublin won 1 All Ireland in 50s Meath with population of 66000 won 1 All Ireland in 50s Dubs won 1 All Ireland in 60s Meath won 1 All Ireland in 60s with 66000 population. Dublin would have had population of 700000 to 800000 in that time. Meath was outside top 15 populated counties in Ireland in 40s 50s and 60s. The other sucessful counties at time had huge populations compared to Meath like Down. Cork had 5 times the population of Meath. Galway had 3 times population of Meath kerry twice the population of Meath . And Dublin had 12 times the population of Meath in 40s 50s and 60s. Yet Meath went toe to toe with Dublin and actually had years of dominance over Dublin in late 40s early 50s and 60s.

Between 1940 to 1970
Meath won 3 All Ireland 10 leinster title and 2 national league titles
Dublin won 3 All Ireland 8 leinster titles and 3 national league titles.

The Dubs underachieved up to 2011. With a massive population, small populated counties like Meath were able to go toe to toe with Dubs for 80 years. A rural population county kerry was able to win 30 All Irelands while Dubs won 9 in the same period from foundation of the state to 2010. Dubs won 11 All Ireland before 1910 a time when the All Ireland championship was not competitive on a national level. Dubs won 15 All Ireland with teams witth players down the countty. Dublin didnt get their act together until 1950s when Dubilin team had Dublin men on them. Dubs underachieved up to 2011. Years with little All Ireland sucess. Dublin had 2 All Ireland wins in 30s 40s and 50s. No leinster tiitle for 11 years up to 1974. And 2 All Ireland wins in 80s 90s and 00s. And no All Ireland final appearance for 14 years up to 2011.

Uncle Pierre

That's quite the history lesson by Sonny678, and it's interesting in its own right. But even if you accept his basic premise that All-Irelands won by Dublin up to the 1950s weren't "really" won by Dublin because teams were full of transplanted culchies, you're still left with the fact that between 1955 and 2005, Dublin still won more All-Irelands that any other county except Kerry.

"Should" they have won more during this time? Perhaps. But does that mean there should be many millions of euro pumped in over more than a decade into just one county who some thought were "underachieving", in a way that was never done before and probably won't ever be done again? I don't think so.

Should it not have just been up to Dublin to get their own act together themselves, the way so many Dublin people now tell other counties to do?

Uncle Pierre

Did you smash it wrote: »

My point is the clubs in Newbridge don’t really see the benefit of a GPO that Dublin clubs would. The two clubs in newbridge have large community engagement, a large amount of volunteers and a community steeped in GAA. It’s just interwoven into the fabric of life in newbridge. So paying some outsider to teach kids the basics is not something of major value to them.

In Dublin it’s different. It’s not as GAA centric a society. They had the kids and massive catchment areas but they hadn’t the ease at which to engage with them that is a given in places like newbridge.

That’s why the funding of GPOs and the usefulness in doing so is an extremely complex issue and the vast majority of people, especially within the media, don’t really get it.

And my point is that even if other clubs do see the value in having a GPO, it's a lot harder for them to pay for it than it is for large Dublin clubs with much higher annual income than most others.

By the way, if you say that clubs in Newbridge or anywhere else don't "need" GPOs in the way that Dublin clubs do, because they've already got good volunteers and coaches, then are you not by extension also saying that the Dublin clubs didn't have good volunteers and coaches of their own?

tritium

Rock77 wrote: »

It doesn’t matter what the next complaint is though does it? If the GAA don’t give Dublin an unfair advantage over everyone else and Dublin are still battering everyone then there can be no more legitimate complaints.

Sure, people can still moan that their team is getting hammered by Dublin but at least all you Dubs could say that’s it’s a level playing field..

GAA has never been a level playing field. Whether it’s Kerry getting the draw set to give them a handy ride to the final or certain counties pretending there’s a transfer market in football to bring in a marquee forward. Cash was king long before the dublin funding too, and it showed in the results. Funny how everyone pretends it only became a problem when dublin got their act together

Did you smash it

Uncle Pierre wrote: »

And my point is that even if other clubs do see the value in having a GPO, it's a lot harder for them to pay for it than it is for large Dublin clubs with much higher annual income than most others.

By the way, if you say that clubs in Newbridge or anywhere else don't "need" GPOs in the way that Dublin clubs do, because they've already got good volunteers and coaches, then are you not by extension also saying that the Dublin clubs didn't have good volunteers and coaches of their own?

You can draw that conclusion I suppose. I’m not on the pro Dublin side. I’m on the pro truth side.

Uncle Pierre

Did you smash it wrote: »

You can draw that conclusion I suppose. I’m not on the pro Dublin side. I’m on the pro truth side.

In that case, I don't know if it's true to say that "the clubs in Newbridge don’t really see the benefit of a GPO", as you said above.

Just because they don't have something doesn't mean they don't see the benefit it would be. It might be a case where like so many other clubs, they simply can't find an extra €20,000 or €25,000 each year to pay for it.

Same principle as how while I don't have a €10 million investment portfolio, that doesn't mean I can't see the benefits of having one. I simply can't afford it.

My investments run to less than €5 million.

Uncle Pierre

tritium wrote: »

Kerry getting the draw set to give them a handy ride to the final

Well, this is interesting. Please tell more.

gormdubhgorm

Rock77 wrote: »

Again, not trying to be smart with this question but...

You say Dublin were underachieving for years and investment has put them where they should be, you also say Meath and Kildare are currently underachieving so should one of those counties now receive the same amount of funding that Dublin did to put them where they should be?

I believe Meath and Kildare should be at least top strong div 1 teams. At the moment neither can compete in division 1. Both of those counties should receive funding imo as they have fallen below where they should be. But not just funding guidance and restructuring. Because aside from Dublin they are the richest counties. largest populations, and large sprawling suburbs. Which is why the Leinster Council has launched the Leinster project/strategy or whatever you want to call it.

Considering that Meath and Kildare are not considered hurling counties. There is no excuse that they have let themselves fall as low as they have. In fact I would argue that Kildare and Meath are sleeping giants. Give the right people the right funding structure and guidance, I think they can take off again.

Because something went seriously wrong somewhere that they became so dependant on major figure heads such as Boylan and Micko to get the show on the road.

In my opinion McGeeney for example was the most overhyped manager in the history of Gaelic football. In my opinion he never really improved that Kildare team. Yet RTE seem to get very excited about him squinting in the distance looking thoughtful/determined.

It will be interesting to see what Jack O'Connor can do with Kildare. I think it a pity he did not get them 10-15 years ago when they had the underage talent, but inept tactics hamstrung the team.

McEntee in Meath (the poor fecker) seems to be starting from scratch with Meath to rebuild them. A thankless task, most of the new Meath talent seems to come from one club Ratoath (which says something in itself).

gormdubhgorm

tritium wrote: »

GAA has never been a level playing field. Whether it’s Kerry getting the draw set to give them a handy ride to the final or certain counties pretending there’s a transfer market in football to bring in a marquee forward. Cash was king long before the dublin funding too, and it showed in the results. Funny how everyone pretends it only became a problem when dublin got their act together

Yeah Micko and his imports worked wonders for Kildare. He was scouring the country for anyone who would line out for them and improve the team. It was up there with Jack Charlton asking players if they wanted to play for Ireland. But in Micko's case there did not have to be a Kildare Granny or Grandad!

Your point on Kerry is a good one one of the strongest football teams in the history of the GAA in a 'hurling province'. Old Kerry players often talk about how easy it was to peak for 'the Dubs'.

The whole provincial system is completely inequitable by its very nature. Lopsided in numbers, lopsided in the standard of the counties in it.

Yet 'tradition' keeps it there. If you were setting up an intercounty football championship now no way would the provinces be invented as now.

People would be laughed out of it, if Kerry and Limerick, Tipperary, and Clare were put in the same province. Or if Wicklow, Carlow, Westmeath and Louth were put in the same province as Dublin.

What hope have Fermanagh and Antrim in Ulster two of the weaker sides in the country? Armagh and Derry are fast becoming also rans in Ulster.
Leitrim had one day in the sun by in 1994 in Connacht are they supposed to dine out on it for 100 years?
Sligo managed a win in 2007 do they have to dine on that for 40 years or what?
It's daft.

Sonny678

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I believe Meath and Kildare should be at least top strong div 1 teams. At the moment neither can compete in division 1. Both of those counties should receive funding imo as they have fallen below where they should be. But not just funding guidance and restructuring. Because aside from Dublin they are the richest counties. largest populations, and large sprawling suburbs. Which is why the Leinster Council has launched the Leinster project/strategy or whatever you want to call it.

Considering that Meath and Kildare are not considered hurling counties. There is no excuse that they have let themselves fall as low as they have. In fact I would argue that Kildare and Meath are sleeping giants. Give the right people the right funding structure and guidance, I think they can take off again.

Because something went seriously wrong somewhere that they became so dependant on major figure heads such as Boylan and Micko to get the show on the road.

In my opinion McGeeney for example was the most overhyped manager in the history of Gaelic football. In my opinion he never really improved that Kildare team. Yet RTE seem to get very excited about him squinting in the distance looking thoughtful/determined.

It will be interesting to see what Jack O'Connor can do with Kildare. I think it a pity he did not get them 10-15 years ago when they had the underage talent, but inept tactics hamstrung the team.

McEntee in Meath (the poor fecker) seems to be starting from scratch with Meath to rebuild them. A thankless task, most of the new Meath talent seems to come from one club Ratoath (which says something in itself).

New Meath talent is not all from Rataoth; not one of the new talent that emerged in Meath in last 2 years is from Rataoth.14 new players debuted for Meath in last 2 years all 19 20 21. Not one of the 14 new debutants are from Rataoth.
.
Jordan Morris from Nobber ( north Meath)
Shane Walsh - Enfield
Ethan Devine Enfield
James Conlon Bettystown
Dara Campion - Skryne
Jason Scully - Oldcastle North Meath
Cathal Hickey - Senchalstown
Eoin Harkin - Dunsany
Cian McBride - St Ultans North Meath
Dominic Yorke - Meath hill North Meath
Matthew Costello - Dunshaughlin
Jack O Connor - Curraha
Ronan Ryan Summerhill
Ross Ryan Summerhill


Not one of the new young players are from Rataoth, Ashbourne or Dunboyne. 1 from Dunshaughlin. There are 4 new young players from North Meath. Many of the players are from more rural Meath then the suburbs.
Thats not to say we might see more players come from Rataoth or Ashbourne in coming years. But to say most of the new talent in Meath is from Rataoth is wrong when not one of the 13 new young players who debuted in last 2 years are not from Rataoth. There is 4 players on the panel from Rataoth but they are not new young talent. 4 Rataoth players are Conor McGill who is 28 and made his debut 6 years ago, Byran McMahon who is 27 and made his debut 7 years ago, Eamon Wallace who is 26 and made his debut 8 years ago and Joey Wallace who is 25 who made hie debut 6 years ago.

Regards Meath with big population, wealthy counties. Again population doesnt gurantre sucess. When Meath was winning All Irelands it had smallest population of All Ireland winning countires along with Cavan and Roscommon in 1930s 1940s 1950s 1960s. Meath were the smallest counties who won Sam with smallest population from 1960 to 2000 along with Offaly. Meath was outside top 15 biggest counties in Ireland when they won Sam with 66000 in 67. When Sean Boylan took over in 1982 Meath had populatuon of 95000. Meath basically was a version of Offaly but with bwtter land and more sparsely populated prior to 2000. Meath ans kildare now have rural areas, but also huge suburbs which are extension of the greater dublin area. Meath and kildsre are now more like Wicklow. Meath has gone from a county with characteristics similar to midlands county like Offaly to an eastern county like Wicklo.

. Meath kildare and Wicklow are all similar type counties. IMeath and kildare have become new Wickkows in terms of populatiom, suburbs etc. Well Wicklow shows population doesnt guranteee sucess. Look at Wicklow look at Antrim look at limerick football, look at Dublin prior to 2011, look at kildare for 70 years before Dwyer came. Population doesnt gurantee sucess. There is chance Meath and kildare might struggle ever to have sucess again. Look at Wicklow no leinster titles. If Wicklow with big population, wealthy county have always struggled to obtain sucess. And Meath & kildsre have transformed into similar counties like Wicklow. There is no gurantee both counties will have sucess in the future. Regards sleeping gaints kildare have been sleeping gaint for the last 90 years. Cavan in many ways are Sleeping gaint, so is Antrim and so was Dublin for long time. There is long history of sleeping gaints in gaa.

Did you smash it

Uncle Pierre wrote: »

In that case, I don't know if it's true to say that "the clubs in Newbridge don’t really see the benefit of a GPO", as you said above.

Just because they don't have something doesn't mean they don't see the benefit it would be. It might be a case where like so many other clubs, they simply can't find an extra €20,000 or €25,000 each year to pay for it.

Same principle as how while I don't have a €10 million investment portfolio, that doesn't mean I can't see the benefits of having one. I simply can't afford it.

My investments run to less than €5 million.

I said the newbridge clubs don’t see the benefit of a GPO that Dublin clubs would. I’ve given reasons for this but it’s just a theory. You’ve quoted me in such a way to suggest I think they see no benefit.

Newbridge is a GAA town. The need to pay 25k to someone to teach kids a few basics is probably not as pressing as in Dublin surburbs where because of all the new families it’s a less community based environment.

I should really confirm newbridge clubs haven’t exercised their option to join the east Leinster project because it’s something I only heard in passing a year ago.

Hammer Archer

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I believe Meath and Kildare should be at least top strong div 1 teams. At the moment neither can compete in division 1. Both of those counties should receive funding imo as they have fallen below where they should be. But not just funding guidance and restructuring. Because aside from Dublin they are the richest counties. largest populations, and large sprawling suburbs. Which is why the Leinster Council has launched the Leinster project/strategy or whatever you want to call it.

Considering that Meath and Kildare are not considered hurling counties. There is no excuse that they have let themselves fall as low as they have. In fact I would argue that Kildare and Meath are sleeping giants. Give the right people the right funding structure and guidance, I think they can take off again.

Because something went seriously wrong somewhere that they became so dependant on major figure heads such as Boylan and Micko to get the show on the road.

In my opinion McGeeney for example was the most overhyped manager in the history of Gaelic football. In my opinion he never really improved that Kildare team. Yet RTE seem to get very excited about him squinting in the distance looking thoughtful/determined.

It will be interesting to see what Jack O'Connor can do with Kildare. I think it a pity he did not get them 10-15 years ago when they had the underage talent, but inept tactics hamstrung the team.

McEntee in Meath (the poor fecker) seems to be starting from scratch with Meath to rebuild them. A thankless task, most of the new Meath talent seems to come from one club Ratoath (which says something in itself).

Seriously, where are you getting your information about Meath football from? Most new talent is not coming from Ratoath. Jordan Morris is from Nobber, Shane Walsh is from Na Fianna, Matthew Costello is from Dunshaughlin, Cathal Hickey is from Seneschalstown to name a few. No new players from Ratoath have played with Meath over the last few years. Only two Ratoath players were on the Meath minor team that easily beat Dublin last month. St.Colmcilles have been the main team at minor level in recent times with Ratoath only winning in 2017.
With all due respect, you probably shouldn't be making definitive statements about things that you lack knowledge about. This is the second time you've been corrected.

Uncle Pierre

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

People would be laughed out of it, if Kerry and Limerick, Tipperary, and Clare were put in the same province. Or if Wicklow, Carlow, Westmeath and Louth were put in the same province as Dublin.

What hope have Fermanagh and Antrim in Ulster two of the weaker sides in the country? Armagh and Derry are fast becoming also rans in Ulster.
Leitrim had one day in the sun by in 1994 in Connacht are they supposed to dine out on it for 100 years?
Sligo managed a win in 2007 do they have to dine on that for 40 years or what?
It's daft.

Far from people being laughed out of it if these structures were first proposed today. In fact, many people in those weaker counties are utterly opposed to any suggestion that these structures be changed. Look at the opposition from them to the creation of a two-tier championship, no matter how badly it's actually needed.

I agree that the provincial championships is a lop-sided system, and always has been. To me, the way forward is a proper two-tier structure, with 16 teams in each (four groups four), and one or two being promoted/relegated between them each year. But it seems the majority of people in both stronger and weaker counties want to keep the provincial structure.

gormdubhgorm

Hammer Archer wrote: »

Seriously, where are you getting your information about Meath football from? Most new talent is not coming from Ratoath. Jordan Morris is from Nobber, Shane Walsh is from Na Fianna, Matthew Costello is from Dunshaughlin, Cathal Hickey is from Seneschalstown to name a few. No new players from Ratoath have played with Meath over the last few years. Only two Ratoath players were on the Meath minor team that easily beat Dublin last month. St.Colmcilles have been the main team at minor level in recent times with Ratoath only winning in 2017.
With all due respect, you probably shouldn't be making definitive statements about things that you lack knowledge about. This is the second time you've been corrected.

I was informed by Ratoath coach that they are now the future of Meath football.
With their young lads coming through. The fact they won the Meath championship two times in a row surely points to that fact?

I am not saying it is a bad thing to be dependant on one club.
Armagh Crossmaglen did it and even Dublin do it to an extent with Ballymun.

If you what you say is true there should be a large spread of talent across the county and the future of Meath football should be a rosy one.

Rolo2010

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I was informed by Ratoath coach that they are now the future of Meath football.
With their young lads coming through. The fact they won the Meath championship two times in a row surely points to that fact?

I am not saying it is a bad thing to be dependant on one club.
Armagh Crossmaglen did it and even Dublin do it to an extent with Ballymun.

If you what you say is true there should be a large spread of talent across the county and the future of Meath football should be a rosy one.

Winning a 2 in a row just means they have a good team right now. Kickhams last won in 2012 but they still produce county standard players. It actually is bad to be dependent on one club because it usually bad news for the county once a strong club goes into decline.

Rock77

tritium wrote: »

GAA has never been a level playing field. Whether it’s Kerry getting the draw set to give them a handy ride to the final or certain counties pretending there’s a transfer market in football to bring in a marquee forward. Cash was king long before the dublin funding too, and it showed in the results. Funny how everyone pretends it only became a problem when dublin got their act together

1. Kerry getting the draw. Are you saying the draw was rigged? Any evidence of that? Give Rudy a shout, he may be able to help..

2. Transfer market shenanigans. Were the rules the same for everyone? If so then that’s the definition of a level playing field.

You seem to have an issue with Dublin’s unfair advantage being taken away from them, why is that?

gormdubhgorm

Rolo2010 wrote: »

Winning a 2 in a row just means they have a good team right now. Kickhams last won in 2012 but they still produce county standard players. It actually is bad to be dependent on one club because it usually bad news for the county once a strong club goes into decline.

The reason why Ballymun last won the county in 2012 was precisely because of Dublin's success. It was only when there was a break due to covid that those lads got a rest. Despite everything else Ballymun is the spine the Dublin team.

It will be interesting when Ballymun goes in decline what happens Dublin. You might think I am codding. But they are the heartbeat for Dublin and have been for a long time.

The Lost Sheep

Did you smash it wrote: »

My point is the clubs in Newbridge don’t really see the benefit of a GPO that Dublin clubs would. The two clubs in newbridge have large community engagement, a large amount of volunteers and a community steeped in GAA. It’s just interwoven into the fabric of life in newbridge. So paying some outsider to teach kids the basics is not something of major value to them.

In Dublin it’s different. It’s not as GAA centric a society. They had the kids and massive catchment areas but they hadn’t the ease at which to engage with them that is a given in places like newbridge.

That’s why the funding of GPOs and the usefulness in doing so is an extremely complex issue and the vast majority of people, especially within the media, don’t really get it.

The clubs would completely see the benefit of a development officer. This is someone who works full time to promote and develop the sport. The GAA is bigger/plays more of an influence overall in smaller towns etc than in the city but the games development officers still can play a huge role of plenty value to clubs. Rugby is very big/popular in many areas of Limerick/Cork city and there is still loads of development officers for Munster rugby working these areas.

Uncle Pierre wrote: »

And my point is that even if other clubs do see the value in having a GPO, it's a lot harder for them to pay for it than it is for large Dublin clubs with much higher annual income than most others.

By the way, if you say that clubs in Newbridge or anywhere else don't "need" GPOs in the way that Dublin clubs do, because they've already got good volunteers and coaches, then are you not by extension also saying that the Dublin clubs didn't have good volunteers and coaches of their own?

Is it. Many rugby clubs can fund them and would GAA clubs not have similar resources to these rugby clubs to do it?

Did you smash it wrote: »

I said the newbridge clubs don’t see the benefit of a GPO that Dublin clubs would. I’ve given reasons for this but it’s just a theory. You’ve quoted me in such a way to suggest I think they see no benefit.

Newbridge is a GAA town. The need to pay 25k to someone to teach kids a few basics is probably not as pressing as in Dublin surburbs where because of all the new families it’s a less community based environment.

I should really confirm newbridge clubs haven’t exercised their option to join the east Leinster project because it’s something I only heard in passing a year ago.

Its not simply about teaching kids basics/getting them interest in the sport though. Its a lot more than that alone. Its about best practices and helping that.

Uncle Pierre wrote: »

Far from people being laughed out of it if these structures were first proposed today. In fact, many people in those weaker counties are utterly opposed to any suggestion that these structures be changed. Look at the opposition from them to the creation of a two-tier championship, no matter how badly it's actually needed.

I agree that the provincial championships is a lop-sided system, and always has been. To me, the way forward is a proper two-tier structure, with 16 teams in each (four groups four), and one or two being promoted/relegated between them each year. But it seems the majority of people in both stronger and weaker counties want to keep the provincial structure.

Yes a better streamlined structure is needed but that doesnt mean you have to get rid of the provincial competitions like plenty suggest when giving their thoughts on competition structures.

tritium

Uncle Pierre wrote: »

Well, this is interesting. Please tell more.

Jesus is not exactly state secrets stuff. Munster council have always looked after Kerry and, to a lesser degree cork. In 1980 they dropped them straight into a Munster final. In 2009 they had to scrap seeding because it was basically rigging it for cork or Kerry to win the provincial title. All above board of course (as indeed is GAA funding) but a very handy way to avoid burnout, injuries or suspensions wouldn’t you think? But of course I don’t doubt you already know this

Cilldara_2000

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Yeah Micko and his imports worked wonders for Kildare. He was scouring the country for anyone who would line out for them and improve the team. It was up there with Jack Charlton asking players if they wanted to play for Ireland. But in Micko's case there did not have to be a Kildare Granny or Grandad!

This is the trope but it's not true. "His imports" were all either living or working in the county. That you'd get this wrong would lead anyone to doubt all your pronouncements.

Uncle Pierre

tritium wrote: »

Jesus is not exactly state secrets stuff. Munster council have always looked after Kerry and, to a lesser degree cork. In 1980 they dropped them straight into a Munster final. In 2009 they had to scrap seeding because it was basically rigging it for cork or Kerry to win the provincial title. All above board of course (as indeed is GAA funding) but a very handy way to avoid burnout, injuries or suspensions wouldn’t you think? But of course I don’t doubt you already know this

Ah, you mean seeding in the Munster championship, such that the two strongest teams were on opposite sides of the draw.

You just said rigged to give them "an easy ride to the final", so I thought you meant to the All-Ireland Final, and that draws for matches against back-door qualifiers and the like were somehow rigged to give Kerry an "easy" match.

But here's something that might be news to you. The Leinster Football Championship is seeded too. The four semi-finalists from any given year are put into separate quarters of the draw for the following year's championship. Dublin is one of those four every year. So is this "rigging" too?

Of course not. Seeding is very different from rigging. But as you might say yourself - of course, I don't doubt you already know this.

Rolo2010

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

The clubs would completely see the benefit of a development officer. This is someone who works full time to promote and develop the sport. The GAA is bigger/plays more of an influence overall in smaller towns etc than in the city but the games development officers still can play a huge role of plenty value to clubs. Rugby is very big/popular in many areas of Limerick/Cork city and there is still loads of development officers for Munster rugby working these areas.

Is it. Many rugby clubs can fund them and would GAA clubs not have similar resources to these rugby clubs to do it?

Its not simply about teaching kids basics/getting them interest in the sport though. Its a lot more than that alone. Its about best practices and helping that.

Yes a better streamlined structure is needed but that doesnt mean you have to get rid of the provincial competitions like plenty suggest when giving their thoughts on competition structures.

Where do the provincials fit in alongside a league and 2 tier championship. One of the competitions will have to give to provide for a shorter intercounty season and split season. GPA wants intercounty from Feb to July or 23 weeks. August onwards for club only.

The Lost Sheep

Rolo2010 wrote: »

Where do the provincials fit in alongside a league and 2 tier championship. One of the competitions will have to give to provide for a shorter intercounty season and split season. GPA wants intercounty from Feb to July or 23 weeks. August onwards for club only.

by reducing number of weekends it takes to play games. Look at current set up and how many weekends it takes to play some of the provincial championships.

Rolo2010

Provincials take up 4 weeks assuming no breaks. 10 weeks for League including breaks. A 2 tier championship will likely involve groups so that's 5 or 6 games. There will also need to be hurling only weekends. It's not going to fit into 23 weeks as proposed by the GPA.

tritium

Uncle Pierre wrote: »

Ah, you mean seeding in the Munster championship, such that the two strongest teams were on opposite sides of the draw.

You just said rigged to give them "an easy ride to the final", so I thought you meant to the All-Ireland Final, and that draws for matches against back-door qualifiers and the like were somehow rigged to give Kerry an "easy" match.

But here's something that might be news to you. The Leinster Football Championship is seeded too. The four semi-finalists from any given year are put into separate quarters of the draw for the following year's championship. Dublin is one of those four every year. So is this "rigging" too?

Of course not. Seeding is very different from rigging. But as you might say yourself - of course, I don't doubt you already know this.

Did I use the word rigged? No, no I didn’t. I can’t imagine why you’d put words into my mouth so unless you had an agenda that my posts sat uncomfortably with... Kerry benefitted though from a remarkably handy championship structure that ensured they came out of Munster fit and fresh and rating to go. Above board sure, fair? That’s more debatable. But of course I would never say that they cheated or rigged things. It’s not as if they were taking bags of cash from big European sportswear firms and the GAA just gave them a gentle tap on the nuckles to get their share after all. That would be professional sport after all and as posters here keep telling us that’s a dublin issue

blanch152

Uncle Pierre wrote: »

Ah, you mean seeding in the Munster championship, such that the two strongest teams were on opposite sides of the draw.

You just said rigged to give them "an easy ride to the final", so I thought you meant to the All-Ireland Final, and that draws for matches against back-door qualifiers and the like were somehow rigged to give Kerry an "easy" match.

But here's something that might be news to you. The Leinster Football Championship is seeded too. The four semi-finalists from any given year are put into separate quarters of the draw for the following year's championship. Dublin is one of those four every year. So is this "rigging" too?

Of course not. Seeding is very different from rigging. But as you might say yourself - of course, I don't doubt you already know this.

Think Kerry had a bye into the Munster final in 1979, or 1980, made the All-Ireland a three-game cakewalk.

Dickie10

how about a dublin b team? or put in a team from fingal and dun laoighrie /rathdown? theres a precednece for fingal with the hurling.

Rolo2010

Dickie10 wrote: »

how about a dublin b team? or put in a team from fingal and dun laoighrie /rathdown? theres a precednece for fingal with the hurling.

Why? People will just complain if they get up to Div 2.

Rolo2010

blanch152 wrote: »

Think Kerry had a bye into the Munster final in 1979, or 1980, made the All-Ireland a three-game cakewalk.

1980. They beat Clare in 79 in the SF by 9-21 to 1-9. Waterford in 78 by 4-27 to 2-8.

Dickie10

Rolo2010 wrote: »

Why? People will just complain if they get up to Div 2.

once their rolled out as a county team, then make minor and u 20 teams and all players from those clubs dont play with dublin but with those new counties it might lessedn power of dublin over time plus we would have 2 new teams and to be honest there huge differences in culture and geography between Dun Laoighrie/Rathdown and Fingal anyway. I guess Fingal would be based out of Swords town and have all the countryside clubs to pick from. Would they be the culchie Dublin team then?!