Irish Property Market 2020 Part 2

Graham · 28-11-2020 11:31pm

Mod Note

AssetBacked2, thread banned for 1 week.

Villa05 · 28-11-2020 11:33pm

Hubertj wrote:

Why do you build â€œfamily homesâ€ with little to no gardens? Whatever about the price and how they look can anyone explain the no garden thing?

And their called Annesley gardens. Houses are for making as much money as possible not for living.

impr0v · 28-11-2020 11:39pm

Hubertj wrote: »

https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/annesley-gardens-annesley-gardens-ranelagh-dublin-6/4400630

Why do you build “family homes” with little to no gardens? Whatever about the price and how they look can anyone explain the no garden thing?

Because you’ve paid so much for the site.

It’s the latest luxury home offer from Seabren Developments, run by Johnny O’Loughlin and Michael Moran, of the Moran Hotel Group. The pair made headlines 2½ years ago when they purchased the 1.25-acre site for €8.7 million, significantly above its guide price of €4.9 million-plus. The deal was described at the time by selling agent Iain Finnegan of Finnegan Menton as a “record price for a piece of land without planning permission”.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/new-to-market/ranelagh-s-brand-new-street-with-three-beds-from-1-325m-1.4417967?mode=amp

Hubertj · 28-11-2020 11:39pm

JustLen wrote: »

The local authorities demand higher densities also to make the best use of zoned and serviced lands.

Not always the developer seeking higher profits.

In some cases the developer would prefer larger sites/gardens in the case of say a "exclusive" development but will not be granted planning die to zoning etc.

So you mean if the developer applied for planning to build half as many houses it could be rejected as not dense enough? That’s mad.

Graham · 28-11-2020 11:40pm

Hubertj wrote: »

So you mean if the developer applied for planning to build half as many houses it could be rejected as not dense enough? That’s mad.

Quite likely.

Most LAs have minimum acceptable housing densities for new developments.

PropQueries · 28-11-2020 11:44pm

I think this is property related but may be a bit off topic but just to let everyone know The Big Short just started on RTÉ 2 if it’s been a while since ye have seen it.

Cyrus · 28-11-2020 11:44pm

Hubertj wrote: »

https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/annesley-gardens-annesley-gardens-ranelagh-dublin-6/4400630

Why do you build “family homes” with little to no gardens? Whatever about the price and how they look can anyone explain the no garden thing?

There are gardens from what I can see ? Not big but they are there, I don’t think planning would be granted with no gardens to be fair . See pic 27.

Hubertj · 29-11-2020 12:00am

impr0v wrote: »

Because you’ve paid so much for the site.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/new-to-market/ranelagh-s-brand-new-street-with-three-beds-from-1-325m-1.4417967?mode=amp

Yes that makes sense but then others have said less dense development would have been rejected?
There are gardens but I think small for family homes

Financesetc. · 29-11-2020 12:26am

Cyrus · 29-11-2020 4:04pm

accensi0n wrote: »

Call door to door and see if they can speak fluently.

Speak fluently or the language of economics? You appear to be changing the criteria .

accensi0n · 29-11-2020 4:06pm

Cyrus wrote: »

Speak fluently or the language of economics? You appear to be changing the criteria .

It's the only way to find out if they're affluent.

Cyrus · 29-11-2020 4:15pm

accensi0n wrote: »

It's the only way to find out if they're affluent.

Touché

M256 · 29-11-2020 10:29pm

CorkRed93 wrote: »

Was thinking this too when looking at some friends new builds. Wonder is it down to land prices? squeeze as many houses in as possible to guarantee/increase return? I could be way off here but sure i'll be corrected if so

But 1.35 mil for a 3 storey terraced house with a tiny garden? Who would pay this kind of money? The builders would of course try to maximize their returns but that means there is demand for such nonsense? Is this representative of the market or an outlier?

Cyrus · 29-11-2020 10:38pm

M256 wrote: »

But 1.35 mil for a 3 storey terraced house with a tiny garden? Who would pay this kind of money? The builders would of course try to maximize their returns but that means there is demand for such nonsense? Is this representative of the market or an outlier?

Let’s see if they sell but I wouldn’t be surprised.

It’s represents a very small portion of the market. There aren’t many new builds in these areas.

enricoh · 29-11-2020 11:05pm

Hubertj wrote: »

I’d say it’s a thread where you can post anything you like whether it is fact,, fiction or opinion. Those opinions should be open to debate scrutiny and ridicule. For example, some people believe property prices will not fall or are not over valued, some believe the state can build houses at scale without making a mess of it, other believe Sinn Fein are correct in their theories, some think property prices will fall 50% in 2 years and 75% within 5 years. Some suggest you should take advice from randomers on purchasing a property. Some even pipe on about the last recession.

Another poster (plopqueries) suggested the government will use the proposed reform of direct provision as a method to keep property prices inflated. Now you tell me how should someone react to such a statement? Plausible? Racist? Xenophobic? Idiotic? Trolling? What do you expect on the internet?

If direct provision is ended and all asylum seekers are given their own door accommodation as proposed it means more competing against the government for housing. 2100 units required each year for the 3500 expected to arrive each year. There's 7k + in direct provision at the minute so a mere 4k + to clear the backlog! Who knows - if we start handing out the keys we may even get a few more coming!
But yeah racist, xenaphobic etc.

https://news.google.com/articles/CBMiVmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlyaXNodGltZXMuY29tL29waW5pb24vbGV0dGVycy9ob3VzaW5nLXN5c3RlbS1mb3ItYXN5bHVtLXNlZWtlcnMtMS40NDIwNjc50gFfaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaXJpc2h0aW1lcy5jb20vb3Bpbmlvbi9sZXR0ZXJzL2hvdXNpbmctc3lzdGVtLWZvci1hc3lsdW0tc2Vla2Vycy0xLjQ0MjA2Nzk_bW9kZT1hbXA?hl=en-IE&gl=IE&ceid=IE%3Aen

The number of applicants for international protection expected per year is 3,500. As 38 per cent of applicants form part of households, and single people could reasonably be expected to share houses, the number of households seeking accommodation would be significantly fewer than 3,500.

Interested Observer · 29-11-2020 11:30pm

M256 wrote: »

But 1.35 mil for a 3 storey terraced house with a tiny garden? Who would pay this kind of money? The builders would of course try to maximize their returns but that means there is demand for such nonsense? Is this representative of the market or an outlier?

What's 'the market' here? Ranelagh is obviously a very sought after area to live, the houses are aimed at a very small corner of it, I don't think there's too much to read into.

brisan · 30-11-2020 7:34am

Villa05 wrote: »

There has been incredible tolerance with regard to property owners breaching this specific planning aspect.

Do you think this tolerance is finished. I'm not so sure, but I'd imagine revenue would have some interesting data after the pandemic, will be interesting to see if action is taken.

There is a glut of new hotels either being built or in planning in Dublin
Those investors may put a squeeze on the Councils to enforce the laws as Air B&B
impacts their business

brisan · 30-11-2020 7:47am

JustLen wrote: »

The local authorities demand higher densities also to make the best use of zoned and serviced lands.

Not always the developer seeking higher profits.

In some cases the developer would prefer larger sites/gardens in the case of say a "exclusive" development but will not be granted planning die to zoning etc.

There are regulations regarding minimum private outside space for new build houses and apartments
MKN were pulled up in a planning appeal for a development in D5 and made increase balcony space and outside garden space on some of their new builds
They were also told to ensure attic space could not be converted so that minimum outside space regs could not be broken

PropQueries · 30-11-2020 11:36am

enricoh wrote: »

If direct provision is ended and all asylum seekers are given their own door accommodation as proposed it means more competing against the government for housing. 2100 units required each year for the 3500 expected to arrive each year. There's 7k + in direct provision at the minute so a mere 4k + to clear the backlog! Who knows - if we start handing out the keys we may even get a few more coming!
But yeah racist, xenaphobic etc.

https://news.google.com/articles/CBMiVmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlyaXNodGltZXMuY29tL29waW5pb24vbGV0dGVycy9ob3VzaW5nLXN5c3RlbS1mb3ItYXN5bHVtLXNlZWtlcnMtMS40NDIwNjc50gFfaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaXJpc2h0aW1lcy5jb20vb3Bpbmlvbi9sZXR0ZXJzL2hvdXNpbmctc3lzdGVtLWZvci1hc3lsdW0tc2Vla2Vycy0xLjQ0MjA2Nzk_bW9kZT1hbXA?hl=en-IE&gl=IE&ceid=IE%3Aen

The number of applicants for international protection expected per year is 3,500. As 38 per cent of applicants form part of households, and single people could reasonably be expected to share houses, the number of households seeking accommodation would be significantly fewer than 3,500.

I think that letter from a member of the advisory group is a prime example of the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing. Given that the department of housing stated early on (and before the report was published) that their conclusions weren't workable in the real world, the question has to be asked why wasn't the department of housing represented on the advisory group or if they were, their concerns appear to have been entirely dismissed for some reason?

beauf · 30-11-2020 11:58am

brisan wrote: »

....
They were also told to ensure attic space could not be converted so that minimum outside space regs could not be broken

What's that regulation?

beauf · 30-11-2020 12:03pm

I think a lot of new build houses are ruined because of how little outside space, and gardens they have.

New trend is the double space driveway only space for two cars and no front gardens.
But that means they whole street is a drive way and no one visiting has anywhere to park.

If I'm looking at a choice of old house with garden, and new house with almost no garden.
I think to myself I can fix the old house but I can't fix the lack of garden.

I know a lot of people think they don't need a garden. But many do and I think it hurts the resale.

Pete123456 · 30-11-2020 12:26pm

beauf wrote: »

I think a lot of new build houses are ruined because of how little outside space, and gardens they have.

New trend is the double space driveway only space for two cars and no front gardens.
But that means they whole street is a drive way and no one visiting has anywhere to park.

If I'm looking at a choice of old house with garden, and new house with almost no garden.
I think to myself I can fix the old house but I can't fix the lack of garden.

I know a lot of people think they don't need a garden. But many do and I think it hurts the resale.

While I agree with you, the HTB is one of the biggest factors to consider I think. We would happily buy a few year old house and get better value for money in terms of space, but it means having to save that extra 30k while paying ridiculous rents to a PO Box landlord... it really is a shame that the HTB does not apply to energy efficient “nearly new” houses. I understand the aim behind it is to drive building new homes, but it’s like 2 steps forward, one step back

Cyrus · 30-11-2020 12:28pm

beauf wrote: »

I think to myself I can fix the old house but I can't fix the lack of garden.

people also underestimate the costs of:

a) extending an old property (many 4 bed houses from the 50s and 60s are very small by modern standards)

and b) retrofitting the existing house while they are at it,

which can make the older house uneconomic.

beauf · 30-11-2020 1:25pm

Cyrus wrote: »

people also underestimate the costs of:

a) extending an old property (many 4 bed houses from the 50s and 60s are very small by modern standards)

and b) retrofitting the existing house while they are at it,

which can make the older house uneconomic.

Agreed. Well thats the dilemma. If you buy a house for 400~500 and you spend 80~150 and even 200 on it. You're now competing with 600~700 houses.

I agree with you about the size of the rooms also. But also the shape. Older houses tend to have a lot of narrow rectangular rooms, with a window at the narrow end. Whereas people want a squarer room these day preferably with as much glass in it as is affordable.

PropQueries · 30-11-2020 2:43pm

Interested Observer wrote: »

What's 'the market' here? Ranelagh is obviously a very sought after area to live, the houses are aimed at a very small corner of it, I don't think there's too much to read into.

But is there a market? It appears to me that many developers over the past couple of years saw that Cairn Homes were asking c. €1.6 million for their terraced units in Marianella and said me too. Last time I walked down there, there were still a few empty out of the 12 units and I think they've been available for sale for about the last three years.

Raoul · 30-11-2020 3:18pm

beauf wrote: »

Agreed. Well thats the dilemma. If you buy a house for 400~500 and you spend 80~150 and even 200 on it. You're now competing with 600~700 houses.

I agree with you about the size of the rooms also. But also the shape. Older houses tend to have a lot of narrow rectangular rooms, with a window at the narrow end. Whereas people want a squarer room these day preferably with as much glass in it as is affordable.

Yeah, why is this?

Ursabear · 30-11-2020 3:22pm

Throwback to the window tax? Bad insulation in the past, no double glazing? Would love as much light coming in , in my dream square rooms XD

brisan · 30-11-2020 3:31pm

beauf wrote: »

What's that regulation?

http://www.pleanala.ie/casenum/303146.htm

d) Revised drawings for Blocks 02 and 03 shall be submitted which
shall ensure that all balconies meet the minimum standards
required, as set out in the “Sustainable Urban Housing: Design
Standards for New Apartments Guidelines for Planning
Authorities” issued by the Department of Housing, Planning and
Local Government in March 2018.

rivate Open Space - Houses
7.6.16. I note the Dublin City Development Plan states a minimum standard of 10sqm of
private open space per bedspace should normally be applied. Generally, up to 60-
70sqm of rear garden area is considered sufficient for houses in the city.
7.6.17. Proposed dwelling 1 has a garden of 68sqm; no. 2 has 45sqm; no. 3 has 41sqm;
and no. 4 has 45sqm. The required minimum private open space for dwellings 2-4,
which have 5 bedspaces per dwelling, falls below the minimum requirement of
50sqm. I further note that the attic level has been designed to be able to cater for a
habitable room, which could result in an additional 2 bedspaces. It is my view, as
noted above, that dwellings 1-4 should be omitted from the development for reasons
relating to the impact on the convent building, impact on 3 St. Brigid’s Road and also
as discussed here due to the substandard provision of private open space.
7.6.18. I note proposed dwellings 5-8 provide for 54sqm and above. The dwellings meet the
minimum private open space standards for the number of bed spaces shown.
However, given the restricted site sizes relating to dwellings 5-8, should the Board
be minded to grant permission and retain these dwellings, it would be reasonable to
include a condition removing exempt development provisions in this instance to
ensure impacts of any future extension above what is permitted is fully considered,
particularly with regard to the potential for additional accommodation at attic level
already designed into the dwellings.

Thats them there

beauf · 30-11-2020 3:33pm

brisan wrote: »

http://www.pleanala.ie/casenum/303146.htm

What am I meant to do with that? Trawled through one and I'm not sure what I'm meant to be seeing.

brisan · 30-11-2020 4:19pm

beauf wrote: »

What am I meant to do with that? Trawled through one and I'm not sure what I'm meant to be seeing.

I edited the post and copied the relevant parts
More in there about car parking limited to one per house and not being able to sell rent lease or otherwise dispose of a car parking space
Stuff I’d never seen before
I just copied the pieces about private outside space

Irish Property Market 2020 Part 2

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