Opening of "No-Food" pubs pushed out again

MrStuffins wrote: »

Sorry, I assumed from the tone of the top post you knew what you were talking about.

My mistake!

Said poster i was replying to said the small number showed how effective closing pubs was which didn't make sense as the number given by HPSC is while they were open, what way they categorise a business you'll have to ask the HPSC.

The small number indicates to me the effectiveness of the measures that were put in place in establishments.

stephenjmcd wrote: »

Said poster i was replying to said the small number showed how effective closing pubs was which didn't make sense as the number given by HPSC is while they were open, what way they categorise a business you'll have to ask the HPSC.

So, you condescended to the poster, without actually knowing what you're talking about? Strange!

If people are going to throw around figures, or back up figures thrown around by others, the least they can do is know what they're on about.

I remember there was an article back in Sept stating that 1 in 5 cases in Cork were related to pubs. That would be much higher than the 0.3% claimed earlier in the thread.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40056458.html

MelbourneMan wrote: »

Sometimes Ireland really does seem to ask for the stereotype it criticises when reflected back from the outside.

Aye. The virus has exposed serious issues this country has again. Maybe it will change over time.

MrStuffins wrote: »

Week ending Nov 7th?

Yes the report up to week 45, report up to week 46 should be out tomorrow.

Totals since Ireland began recording cases are in the totals category.

You have the total number of open clusters (a case linked to cluster in last 28 days), the total closed clusters(no case linked in last 28 days) and then both of them added together in the totals category.

Clusters notified in week 45 are in the total week 45 are would be part of the open category

MrStuffins wrote: »

These are not the same thing I'm afraid

Right so what's your issue then with the HPSC data ??

It quite clearly says clusters since the start of covid in Ireland. A cluster being 2 or more cases which is the whole point I've been trying to get through in the last hour as to where the 0.3 figure comes from.
Public house = 22 - 0.3% of total clusters
Restaurant/ Cafe = 38 - 0.5% of total clusters

Total clusters in Ireland since the first notified case = 7266

What do you want to raise issue with there. Quite clearly listed in black and white by the HPSC.

We're going around in circles here and your trying to take issue with numbers being provided by the HPSC. Have a problem with them, contact them.

I give up, time to get some sleep. This is just pointless trying to explain easily readable data.

MrStuffins wrote: »

But that's not what you were saying.......



So, the overall figure, since Covid started, was very low. That's great news.

It shows that the measures surrounding pubs have been a roaring success!

Not sure what your finding so difficult about this.

For one final time which has been my point all the way along this pointless engagement, those are the cluster numbers since covid began in Ireland, have an issue with them contact the HPSC, seeing how contact tracing works are they accurate, who knows but thats whats there

MelbourneMan wrote: »

I think generally open for December 2021 would be a reasonably ambitious, yet realistic and hopeful target. The mistake of opening them, even with limitations will not be attempted again until there is a confirmed effect of a vaccination programme. Its extraordinary they pubs are occupying the media space they do at the moment. The question is trivial in the context of the overall economy, virus struggle, and general impact on society. Sometimes Ireland really does seem to ask for the stereotype it criticises when reflected back from the outside.

Thats a ridiculous statement
In my home village there is 1 shop and 3 pubs and thats for the hinterland around as well. The pub is the focal point of the village, its where people meet, eat, drink and hold social functions. Closure of the 3 pubs has turned the village and the area into a dead ghost village. It has made a huge impact on everyones life, mental health, social interaction , business. I could go on.

Over 20% unemployment rate at the moment not including the many tens of thousands on the TWSS.
I would think all businesses closed of which the hospitality sector is a huge part are certainly not trivial in the context of the economy.

MelbourneMan wrote: »

The mistake of opening them, even with limitations will not be attempted again until there is a confirmed effect of a vaccination programme.

Why do you continue to pretend you have any influence in those decisions?

vafankillar wrote: »

you the link you provided isn't given evidence they have spread the virus in ireland.

i'm not even saying you're wrong in your position, but if you look at the evidence collected of what settings have been proven to spread the virus here, pubs and restaurants aren't high on the lists.

I think the "evidence" we have here in Ireland that is really limited either way, due to the contact tracing.

We have teaching unions giving out about the contact tracing not going back far enough hence the low numbers in school, while simultaneously having vintners and retail pointing to the lack of evidence of specific clusters tied to their sectors as why they should reopen.

In the context of our States contact tracing, we probably do have to rely on evidence from other countries at this point of time?

What I'm witnessing is that there's a lack of compliance with the current restrictions regardless of alcohol / pubs being involved. Not sure the pubs being open would help that being honest. Basically, people who are breaking other restrictions will point at "someone else" as the cause of cases...

Enzo Narrow Tannery wrote: »

loads of evidence based studies say bars/restaurants are most dangerous setting. No guidance on how they could make them safer though. Its dreadful from NPHET .

Enzo Narrow Tannery wrote: »

Do you really believe Ireland is an outlier to every other country? In cork there was a big cluster linked back to a cafe. Indoor buildings that are poorly ventilated spread the disease. This is fact. https://theconversation.com/many-of-our-buildings-are-poorly-ventilated-and-that-adds-to-covid-risks-149830
Give better guidance on air quality , grants to businesses to buy necessary equipment etc and see where we go from there. Advising people to wash their hands thinking everything will be rosy is futile at this point.
Guy on prime time just now mentioning some of this, hopefully opens up the conversation.

That El Pais article you linked to (sorry, quoted wrong post) is really about indoor spaces in general, and implies schools should be closed more than it does pubs. I think it's based on this? I can't access the spreadsheet at the moment, I'd be curious what the caveats are in the readme tab.
But it's worth noting that the graphical elements in that article are based on a tool designed to estimate Covid transmission risk under various circumstances. They're not scientific analyses of potential transmission in a pub.
And the specific example quoted is of 400 people in a nightclub, not a pub with social distancing measures in place.


I've come across that Cork example cited numerous times as an indicator of the spread in pubs, including in one post elsewhere today that included three different links - at least two of them were referencing the same incident, and the third was unclear but may have been. As per the clusters report that stephenjmcd linked to, there have been a total of 23 clusters linked to pubs since March. There were more than that for schools last week alone.
And restaurant aren't much higher.
If anything, the fact that everyone chooses the same incident to cite as an example, and that this was unusual enough to be news in October, demonstrates to me that pubs and restaurants with appropriate social distancing measures aren't a significant risk.

Society today is drained, weather is not helping, short days along with not having gyms, swimming pools open.

I find that many people are getting up, work all day and slump for the evening cause there no activities to go to which would have been the norm before COVID.

People are also getting annoyed that
1. Public transport capacity is not being policed
2. Large funerals still happening as example in Longford today, 10 times d max of 25 people (RTÉ won’t show this)
3. Pubs serving take away pints...I thought level 5 meant total shutdown instead of people congregating on a street

And yet the Guards are not or will not do anything about it.

People are getting tired and run down so open d whole country for December and let’s enjoy and be happy and end the year in a positive manner while still being considerate of others.

In January, I am sure everyone won’t mind if the pubs are closed.

MOH wrote: »

That El Pais article you linked to (sorry, quoted wrong post) is really about indoor spaces in general, and implies schools should be closed more than it does pubs. I think it's based on this? I can't access the spreadsheet at the moment, I'd be curious what the caveats are in the readme tab.
But it's worth noting that the graphical elements in that article are based on a tool designed to estimate Covid transmission risk under various circumstances. They're not scientific analyses of potential transmission in a pub.
And the specific example quoted is of 400 people in a nightclub, not a pub with social distancing measures in place.


I've come across that Cork example cited numerous times as an indicator of the spread in pubs, including in one post elsewhere today that included three different links - at least two of them were referencing the same incident, and the third was unclear but may have been. As per the clusters report that stephenjmcd linked to, there have been a total of 23 clusters linked to pubs since March. There were more than that for schools last week alone.
And restaurant aren't much higher.
If anything, the fact that everyone chooses the same incident to cite as an example, and that this was unusual enough to be news in October, demonstrates to me that pubs and restaurants with appropriate social distancing measures aren't a significant risk.

The biggest cluster in cork in the hospitality sector was a cafe, 53 cases. But that doesn’t fit the narrative they want.

MelbourneMan wrote: »

That you perceive the presence of a narrative shows a strange bias.

There is no narrative. There is no hidden agenda against public houses. There is no grinch taking pleasure in denying the plain people of Ireland their beverage of choice.

The solution is very simple indeed - maybe it is this very simplicity that has people concoct greater and greater fantasy explanations as the truth doesnt lead them to the answer they want to arrive at. The rationale is that people meet in pubs. Reducing people meeting is the key to virus containment. Responsible governments will implement actions with the lowest negative effect, while reducing person to person contact. Closing pubs fits the bill admirably. So they are closed.

It really is as simple as that, and am glad to have helped to clear it up for any here still following the nonsense 'what proportion of cases were traceable to public house settings ?' question.

Well I choose to believe the opposite and that’s that.