Irish Archbishops call for Catholics to be allowed to attend Mass

GarIT · 01-11-2020 3:49am

Geuze wrote: »

Parishes don't make profits, as they are not for-profit private sector firms.

The same goes for dioceses.

The same goes for the GAA.

These are clubs, churches, etc. They do not make profits

They may make a surplus some years, yes.

But any surplus is re-invested.

We do not charge them corporation tax on profits, as they do not earn profits.

That's just calling things different names to make them seem less wrong. Earning more.money than your costs is a profit, it is a surplus too.

The GAA is a bit different, when it makes more money than costs high ranking staff give themselves large bonuses to make the books show a loss. The Vatican on the other hand reinvests as you call it, in assets that it then claims are untouchable.

They don't pay tax because they are a religions organisation not because they don't make a profit.

Graces7 · 01-11-2020 7:13am

Beasty wrote: »

All this shows is that the Catholic Church believe they are above all of this. Sod the rest of us, but the church must do what it wants to how it wants to. They seriously still believe they are entitled to avoid applying the rules the rest of us are expected to (and we can all shout we are "special" in some way, so the restrictions re not for us)?

Agree totally and well said. A more cynical person than me pointed out to me that a lot of this is about money, as if the churches are closed...

And the church SHOULD be setting an example to the rest of us. Should be leading by example. I know that in many places priests are doing a great work of visiting and comforting. That is their role now. Much needed and valued.

I used to be a regular attender until illness made me housebound. Faith is not all about attending mass. It is about faith, and prayer and belief. And all of those things are stronger for me than when I was going to church.

They need to be focussing on feeding their flock in different ways. Helping us to cope not rebelling against safeguards.

As for mass as a social occasion? We have all lost that.. No special treatment should be being sought.

And so many lovely masses online.

As Jesus taught.. "Render to Caesar that which is Caesar's, to God that which is God's " He taught to respect secular law and honour and obey it.

Beasty; thank you!

Graces7 · 01-11-2020 7:16am

Geuze wrote: »

Think carefully about this sentence.

Think very carefully.

Note that Ethiopia have an Air Force, with 75 aircraft.

Think about that.

If there are any "starving children" in Ethiopia, and I don't know if there are, then that is entirely the choice of the Ethiopian Government, and nothing to do with what chair the Pope sits on.

There is absolutely no link whatsoever between the furniture in the Vatican and the plight of children in Africa.

There is a link between the governance of African countries and their population's welfare.

A basic command by Jesus. " Feed the hungry and clothe the naked."

Graces7 · 01-11-2020 7:22am

John Hutton wrote: »

Receipt of Communion, and other Sacraments, are however.

Once in a lifetime is actually surely enough/ For something so all-powerful . And I am being very serious not joking! And they are not the sum total of being a catholic or a Christian .

These ar times when we all need to reassess what we are doing in the light of deepest humanity and care for others.

EVen a few in a large building for an hour?

and the sacrament can be taken to folk at home, and often is. I remember one ol d man being given it to take home to his sick wife

GarIT · 01-11-2020 8:48am

Graces7 wrote: »

Agree totally and well said. A more cynical person than me pointed out to me that a lot of this is about money, as if the churches are closed...

And the church SHOULD be setting an example to the rest of us. Should be leading by example. I know that in many places priests are doing a great work of visiting and comforting. That is their role now. Much needed and valued.

I used to be a regular attender until illness made me housebound. Faith is not all about attending mass. It is about faith, and prayer and belief. And all of those things are stronger for me than when I was going to church.

They need to be focussing on feeding their flock in different ways. Helping us to cope not rebelling against safeguards.

As for mass as a social occasion? We have all lost that.. No special treatment should be being sought.

And so many lovely masses online.

As Jesus taught.. "Render to Caesar that which is Caesar's, to God that which is God's " He taught to respect secular law and honour and obey it.

Beasty; thank you!

Of course priests shouldn't be visiting and comforting. That's how the virus spreads. We don't have the legislation in place but when we do any priest that does this should spend some time in mount joy to make them realise the type of scumbag doing this makes them at the moment.

A priest visiting people at the moment is as good for their community as the local heroin dealer.

breezy1985 · 01-11-2020 11:30am

Geuze wrote: »

Think carefully about this sentence.

Think very carefully.

Note that Ethiopia have an Air Force, with 75 aircraft.

Think about that.

If there are any "starving children" in Ethiopia, and I don't know if there are, then that is entirely the choice of the Ethiopian Government, and nothing to do with what chair the Pope sits on.

There is absolutely no link whatsoever between the furniture in the Vatican and the plight of children in Africa.

There is a link between the governance of African countries and their population's welfare.

Well the vast majority of those planes and helicopters are 70s Russian models that they bought because Somalia were invading which the have tried more than once so its also seriously lazy to link military spending to starving children in Africa.

You might want to think carefully, very carefully about what you say

John Hutton · 01-11-2020 3:40pm

Graces7 wrote: »

Once in a lifetime is actually surely enough/ For something so all-powerful . And I am being very serious not joking! And they are not the sum total of being a catholic or a Christian .

These ar times when we all need to reassess what we are doing in the light of deepest humanity and care for others.

EVen a few in a large building for an hour?

and the sacrament can be taken to folk at home, and often is. I remember one ol d man being given it to take home to his sick wife

Assisting at Mass and receiving the sacraments is essential. For Catholics, and in Catholic teaching, this is not a debate. Watching on the TV, while it has some merits, is not assisting at Mass.

Cases are falling in the north despite no ban on worship. I can understand having a ban for a limited time on the maximum level, level 5 for us, but a ban at level 3 is ridiculous.

John Hutton · 01-11-2020 3:43pm

Graces7 wrote: »

A basic command by Jesus. " Feed the hungry and clothe the naked."

The Catholic Church is the largest non government provider of healthcare in the world. Not to mention all the various other Catholic charities at work all across the world who are "feeding the hungry and clothing the naked".

Zebra3 · 01-11-2020 4:42pm

John Hutton wrote: »

The Catholic Church is the largest non government provider of healthcare in the world. Not to mention all the various other Catholic charities at work all across the world who are "feeding the hungry and clothing the naked".

Yeah, we saw how that worked out here.

Looking after all those "fallen women". :rolleyes:

I know a girl who had a kid here years ago and as the baby was been born, a nun was by her side calling her a whore amongst other names.

The crime of having a kid out of wedlock.

I guess she was one of the lucky ones who didn't end up in one of their gulags.

breezy1985 · 01-11-2020 4:52pm

John Hutton wrote: »

The Catholic Church is the largest non government provider of healthcare in the world. Not to mention all the various other Catholic charities at work all across the world who are "feeding the hungry and clothing the naked".

Only if you convert though

Graces7 · 01-11-2020 4:54pm

John Hutton wrote: »

Assisting at Mass and receiving the sacraments is essential. For Catholics, and in Catholic teaching, this is not a debate. Watching on the TV, while it has some merits, is not assisting at Mass.

Not with the current dangers.

This kind of legalistic dogmatism destroys the Church.

And it is very much a debate. Within the Church as well as outside. Especially now when the Sunday " obligation" has already been dispensed with because of covid and the risks.

I know the Catholic church and its teachings inside out and every which way and there is far more leeway than you seem to think. Far more.

The Body and Blood of Jesus Christ are pure and effective for eternity.

Graces7 · 01-11-2020 4:57pm

GarIT wrote: »

Of course priests shouldn't be visiting and comforting. That's how the virus spreads. We don't have the legislation in place but when we do any priest that does this should spend some time in mount joy to make them realise the type of scumbag doing this makes them at the moment.

A priest visiting people at the moment is as good for their community as the local heroin dealer.

Eejit! Please look at how this is done. It is effected safely and with total effective care. lol.. :eek: Your blind prejudice is astounding!

Graces7 · 01-11-2020 5:01pm

John Hutton wrote: »

The Catholic Church is the largest non government provider of healthcare in the world. Not to mention all the various other Catholic charities at work all across the world who are "feeding the hungry and clothing the naked".

Very revealing that you pick one sentence from all my post and ignore the rest.

NB We are bidden feed and clothe in secret and not boast about it. " For then your father in heaven will reward you. " If you boast hen you have already bee rewarded by men, Jesus says.

And all RC gives is a drop in the ocean set against all they have;. it is pennies to them.

I have actually never heard a priest talk as you do.

Jim_Hodge · 01-11-2020 5:02pm

GarIT wrote: »

Of course priests shouldn't be visiting and comforting. That's how the virus spreads. We don't have the legislation in place but when we do any priest that does this should spend some time in mount joy to make them realise the type of scumbag doing this makes them at the moment.

A priest visiting people at the moment is as good for their community as the local heroin dealer.

At least the priests around here agree. The monthly home visits have been cancelled. They see what needs doing, or not as the case may be.
Our priests aren't in agreement with the bishops on reopening churches to public worship at the moment either.

John Hutton · 01-11-2020 5:47pm

Graces7 wrote: »

John Hutton wrote: »

Assisting at Mass and receiving the sacraments is essential. For Catholics, and in Catholic teaching, this is not a debate. Watching on the TV, while it has some merits, is not assisting at Mass.

Not with the current dangers.

This kind of legalistic dogmatism destroys the Church.

And it is very much a debate. Within the Church as well as outside. Especially now when the Sunday " obligation" has already been dispensed with because of covid and the risks.

I know the Catholic church and its teachings inside out and every which way and there is far more leeway than you seem to think. Far more.

The Body and Blood of Jesus Christ are pure and effective for eternity.

If you think this, you don't know half as much as you think. You might have protestant notions and not agree with it, which is fair enough, but the Catholic teaching is clear.

John Hutton · 01-11-2020 5:49pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

Yeah, we saw how that worked out here.

Looking after all those "fallen women". :rolleyes:

I know a girl who had a kid here years ago and as the baby was been born, a nun was by her side calling her a whore amongst other names.

The crime of having a kid out of wedlock.

I guess she was one of the lucky ones who didn't end up in one of their gulags.

Are you saying that all catholic charities and hospitals etc. are like magdalene laundaries?

You cant on the one hand give out that the Church do not help, and then on the other say that they should not.

Zebra3 · 01-11-2020 5:56pm

John Hutton wrote: »

Are you saying that all catholic charities and hospitals etc. are like magdalene laundaries?

You cant on the one hand give out that the Church do not help, and then on the other say that they should not.

I'd rather see a criminal organisation that has been deeply involved in raping kids, protecting rapists, kidnapping women and enslaving them being outlawed.

breezy1985 · 01-11-2020 7:28pm

John Hutton wrote: »

Are you saying that all catholic charities and hospitals etc. are like magdalene laundaries?

You cant on the one hand give out that the Church do not help, and then on the other say that they should not.

Theres always a price with the church. They help in exchange for obedience and power

John Hutton · 01-11-2020 8:03pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

I'd rather see a criminal organisation that has been deeply involved in raping kids, protecting rapists, kidnapping women and enslaving them being outlawed.

So you are calling for the outlawing of a religion and the (imprisonment, banishment, "reeducation" a la China) of its members based on the actions of a small minority of the billion plus members (that's today, obviously many more over the past two millennia)?

Attitudes like yours are bigoted, and constitute a stated wish to do away with a fundamental human right.

breezy1985 · 01-11-2020 8:07pm

John Hutton wrote: »

So you are calling for the outlawing of a religion and the (imprisonment, banishment, "reeducation" a la China) of its members based on the actions of a small minority of the billion plus members (that's today, obviously many more over the past two millennia)?

Attitudes like yours are bigoted, and constitute a stated wish to do away with a fundamental human right.

Lad no one is believing your faux humanitarian bull. You and your buddies in the Iona institute and the Vatican could not give a toss about fundamental human rights

John Hutton · 01-11-2020 8:17pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

Lad no one is believing your faux humanitarian bull. You and your buddies in the Iona institute and the Vatican could not give a toss about fundamental human rights

I'm not the one saying a religion should be outlawed.

breezy1985 · 01-11-2020 8:20pm

John Hutton wrote: »

I'm not the one saying a religion should be outlawed.

For what they done in Ireland they should have been banned here. Stuff was banned for less

feargale · 01-11-2020 8:28pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

For what they done in Ireland they should have been banned here. Stuff was banned for less

Some Musllims have done bad things too. The response of the Chinese government is to exterminate every trace of Musslim Uighur culture including their language and their religion. If you haven't been too busy spreading your scattergun bigotry you may have become aware by tv etc of the horrendous bullying and persecution to which those poor people have been subjected in China. You are in good company.

breezy1985 · 01-11-2020 8:45pm

feargale wrote: »

Some Musllims have done bad things too. The response of the Chinese government is to exterminate every trace of Musslim Uighur culture including their language and their religion. If you haven't been too busy spreading your scattergun bigotry you may have become aware by tv etc of the horrendous bullying and persecution to which those poor people have been subjected in China. You are in good company.

Not in Ireland I said Ireland. Stop deflecting by saying whoever done whatever wherever none of it makes what the RC church done in Ireland not evil

Zebra3 · 01-11-2020 9:33pm

John Hutton wrote: »

So you are calling for the outlawing of a religion and the (imprisonment, banishment, "reeducation" a la China) of its members based on the actions of a small minority of the billion plus members (that's today, obviously many more over the past two millennia)?

Attitudes like yours are bigoted, and constitute a stated wish to do away with a fundamental human right.

Oh no, somebody is pointing out the criminality in my beloved organisation.

Pointing out how the organisation from top to bottom protected rapists and financially benefited from enslaving kidnapped women.

What will I do?

I know, I'll make stuff up about re-education camps and China which was never mentioned and call the poster a bigot even though it is my beloved organisation which has been bigoted against women for centuries and still is.

You and your ilk may think that a paedophile ring masquerading as a religion should be allowed in society, but some of us have morals.

John Hutton · 01-11-2020 9:34pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

Oh no, somebody is pointing out the criminality in my beloved organisation.

Pointing out how the organisation from top to bottom protected rapists and financially benefited from enslaving kidnapped women.

What will I do?

I know, I'll make stuff up about re-education camps and China which was never mentioned and call the poster a bigot even though it is my beloved organisation which has been bigoted against women for centuries and still is.

You and your ilk may think that a paedophile ring masquerading as a religion should be allowed in society, but some of us have morals.

Then why don't you explain what you mean by outlawing the Catholic religion? What would that look like?

Zebra3 · 01-11-2020 9:40pm

John Hutton wrote: »

Then why don't you explain what you mean by outlawing the Catholic religion? What would that look like?

You really should learn to read or do you just enjoy making stuff up?

I never said the religion should be banned, I said the criminal organisation should be outlawed.

Two different things.

If people want to believe nonsense, that's their problem.

When an organisation is involved in such brutal criminality it needs to be outlawed.

If a terrorist organisation says they're a religious organisation does that give them a free pass to continue to exist legally?

The rest of know the crimes of the RC church, from protecting rapists to enslaving women, to wanting to burn scientists alive.

Says a lot about you that you try to defend such a vile organisation.

John Hutton · 01-11-2020 9:53pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

You really should learn to read or do you just enjoy making stuff up?

I never said the religion should be banned, I said the criminal organisation should be outlawed.

Two different things.

If people want to believe nonsense, that's their problem.

When an organisation is involved in such brutal criminality it needs to be outlawed.

If a terrorist organisation says they're a religious organisation does that give them a free pass to continue to exist legally?

The rest of know the crimes of the RC church, from protecting rapists to enslaving women, to wanting to burn scientists alive.

Says a lot about you that you try to defend such a vile organisation.

Thats a distinction without a difference. How can one be a catholic and practice their religion if the Church is outlawed?

You still haven't answered the question. What would it look like it you had your way?

Zebra3 · 01-11-2020 9:55pm

John Hutton wrote: »

Thats a distinction without a difference. How can one be a catholic and practice their religion if the Church is outlawed?

You still haven't answered the question. What would it look like it you had your way?

Set up a new cult.

Organisations that are up to their eyes in criminality need to be outlawed and have their assets seized.

But you think the law shouldn't be applied to your mob?

Says a lot about you that your worry is about a religion and not about a criminal organisation of rapists and kidnappers.

Bubbaclaus · 01-11-2020 9:56pm

John Hutton wrote: »

How can one be a catholic and practice their religion if the Church is outlawed?

Are you saying that if the Vatican disbanded in the morning you could no longer be a Catholic? That without the organisation existing the belief also ceases to exist?

John Hutton · 01-11-2020 9:57pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

Set up a new cult.

Organisations that are up to their eyes in criminality need to be outlawed and have their assets seized.

But you think the law shouldn't be applied to your mob?

Says a lot about you that your worry is about a religion and not about a criminal organisation of rapists and kidnappers.

Says a lot that you can't answer a simple question as to what, on a practical basis, outlawing the Catholic Church would look like.

Zebra3 · 01-11-2020 10:01pm

John Hutton wrote: »

Says a lot that you can't answer a simple question as to what, on a practical basis, outlawing the Catholic Church would look like.

Why do you think it's my job to outline what would it would be like?

That would be up to the members to decide what to do next and to work within the law with any new cult that they decide to set up.

Why do you think the RC church should be above the law?

John Hutton · 01-11-2020 10:04pm

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

Are you saying that if the Vatican disbanded in the morning you could no longer be a Catholic? That without the organisation existing the belief also ceases to exist?

If Zebra3 had his way and went down the Henry VIII/Cromwellian road and outlawed the Church, which one would have to assume would also involve outlawing Priests, Bishops etc. and hence also outlawing the sacraments, Mass etc. it would be very difficult to practice (note I said practice in my previous post) the faith wouldn't it?

Of course Zebra3 seems very reluctant to actually explain what he means by "outlaw". In this instance it seems fair to look at previous attempts to outlaw the Church in Ireland and assume it would be something along the same lines.

John Hutton · 01-11-2020 10:05pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

Why do you think it's my job to outline what would it would be like?

That would be up to the members to decide what to do next and to work within the law with any new cult that they decide to set up.

Why do you think the RC church should be above the law?

You are the one saying it should be outlawed. Seems reasonable that you should explain what you actually mean by that.

Beasty · 01-11-2020 10:12pm

This thread is about Coronavirus restrictions as they apply to the Catholic Church. Please take wider discussions about the Church elsewhere

01-11-2020 10:15pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

For what they done in Ireland they should have been banned here. Stuff was banned for less

Writers like John McGahern for one, JP Donleavy another...innocuous stuff that apparently would warp impressionable minds and foster licentious behaviour. Catholic Church here very fond of censoring opinions contrary to their own but don't dare criticise them or the persecution complex will overload. Let he who without sin shatter the glass house, etc.

I, and hundreds of thousands of others are forced out of work until a possible lessening of restrictions in early December. We have to grin and bear the economic and emotional fallout. And it could be worse, we're not breaking rocks in a Chinese mine. For parishioners whining about being unable to attend mass, get over yourselves and wait out a few weeks with the rest of us mere mortals. Tune in to the daily over airwaves, or a find a live stream online. Failing that, get out the rosary beads and say a decade. Or whatever. You can pray in the sanctuary of your own home.

Edit: Only spotted Beasty's post above now. Duly acknowledged.

John Hutton · 01-11-2020 10:25pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Writers like John McGahern for one, JP Donleavy another...innocuous stuff that apparently would warp impressionable minds and foster licentious behaviour. Catholic Church here very fond of censoring opinions contrary to their own but don't dare criticise them or the persecution complex will overload. Let he who without sin shatter the glass house, etc.

I, and hundreds of thousands of others are forced out of work until a possible lessening of restrictions in early December. We have to grin and bear the economic and emotional fallout. And it could be worse, we're not breaking rocks in a Chinese mine. For parishioners whining about being unable to attend mass, get over yourselves and wait out a few weeks with the rest of us mere mortals. Tune in to the daily over airwaves, or a find a live stream online. Failing that, get out the rosary beads and say a decade. Or whatever. You can pray in the sanctuary of your own home.

Edit: Only spotted Beasty's post above now. Duly acknowledged.

(Because of mod edict I will only address the bolded bit)

I would agree, but it's not merely a few weeks, it's indefinitely. The current plan, as stated by Varadkar, is to go back to level 3 (Mass is banned at level 3) on December 1st and then, when things inevitably get worse again, level 4 and 5 and keep bouncing like this until a vaccine is widely available, which could be who knows when. It is not planned, or even envisioned, that a return to level 2 (where worship is allowed) will happen.

What I am saying is that religious worship should be allowed at the lower levels, and only stopped on level 5.

foxyladyxx · 01-11-2020 10:39pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

I'd rather see a criminal organisation that has been deeply involved in raping kids, protecting rapists, kidnapping women and enslaving them being outlawed.

As a daily mass goer and practicing Catholic I find that extremely offensive.

I will leave this thread if that is the tone of the discussion here.

Mrs OBumble · 01-11-2020 11:01pm

John Hutton wrote: »

The current plan, as stated by Varadkar, is to go back to level 3 (Mass is banned at level 3) on December 1st and then, when things inevitably get worse again, level 4 and 5 and keep bouncing like this until a vaccine is widely available.

This is worth emphasising.

We are currently enduring a few weeks of level 5 to "save Christmas".

But the Christmas that is planned will have no church services for anyone. No carols. No parties. No shows. No pantomines. No markets. Nothing except shopping and small-family dinners.

one world order · 01-11-2020 11:15pm

Satan is trying to separate as many people from Jesus Christ before he returns. The bible specifically talks about the mark of the beast in the end times. Covid 19 is the mark. If you look at what the Luciferian illuminati occult are doing they have all the messages in plain sight. Corona stands for 666 as per the book of revelation, Covid 19 stands for certificate of vaccination identification artificial intelligence. Book of Daniel gives a time period of 60 to 70 years after the recreation of Israel before Jesus returns, which is the period we are now in. Those keeping the churches closed will end up in hell, but those continuing to believe the gospel and what Jesus Christ did must endure through all this as Satan will try to take as many souls with him and Christians are his prime target.

foxyladyxx · 01-11-2020 11:19pm

John Hutton wrote: »

If Zebra3 had his way and went down the Henry VIII/Cromwellian road and outlawed the Church, which one would have to assume would also involve outlawing Priests, Bishops etc. and hence also outlawing the sacraments, Mass etc. it would be very difficult to practice (note I said practice in my previous post) the faith wouldn't it?

Of course Zebra3 seems very reluctant to actually explain what he means by "outlaw". In this instance it seems fair to look at previous attempts to outlaw the Church in Ireland and assume it would be something along the same lines.

Fair play to you John for starting the thread . .I did have a look at the front page. I just couldn't cope with Zebra3's posts. The gospel of today was very timely. ''Blessed are you when people revile you because of me''.

I really miss mass and the Eucharist . Speaking today to my friends we miss the fellowship of our prayer groups. We now ''meet up'' on zoom three times a week and honestly it makes us feel even more isolated. Bloody zoom!!

I was very ill back in July and was in hospital until the middle of September. I got mass and holy Communion three days in a row in September when I was well enough to go out and about and then the churches were closed under level 3 restrictions, . I was so looking forward to going to Confession because I hadn't been able to get a priest in hospital because of covid restrictions so now I haven't been since July.

30 players can slobber over each other on a rugby pitch for eighty minutes but we cannot exercise our constitutional right by attending religious services! Priests could be jailed if found to be celebrating mass in public. My father used to tell me stories about the Black 'n tans. I never thought I would see the day where I too was forbidden from attending at the celebration of the Eucharist.

I won't be joining you on the thread any further. The likes of Zebra3 really don't understand what they are doing so we can forgive them.

John Hutton · 01-11-2020 11:49pm

foxyladyxx wrote: »

Fair play to you John for starting the thread . .I did have a look at the front page. I just couldn't cope with Zebra3's posts. The gospel of today was very timely. ''Blessed are you when people revile you because of me''.

I really miss mass and the Eucharist . Speaking today to my friends we miss the fellowship of our prayer groups. We now ''meet up'' on zoom three times a week and honestly it makes us feel even more isolated. Bloody zoom!!

I was very ill back in July and was in hospital until the middle of September. I got mass and holy Communion three days in a row in September when I was well enough to go out and about and then the churches were closed under level 3 restrictions, . I was so looking forward to going to Confession because I hadn't been able to get a priest in hospital because of covid restrictions so now I haven't been since July.

30 players can slobber over each other on a rugby pitch for eighty minutes but we cannot exercise our constitutional right by attending religious services! Priests could be jailed if found to be celebrating mass in public. My father used to tell me stories about the Black 'n tans. I never thought I would see the day where I too was forbidden from attending at the celebration of the Eucharist.

I won't be joining you on the thread any further. The likes of Zebra3 really don't understand what they are doing so we can forgive them.

Hope your health has improved and you are doing better now

Bubbaclaus · 01-11-2020 11:52pm

one world order wrote: »

Satan is trying to separate as many people from Jesus Christ before he returns. The bible specifically talks about the mark of the beast in the end times. Covid 19 is the mark. If you look at what the Luciferian illuminati occult are doing they have all the messages in plain sight. Corona stands for 666 as per the book of revelation, Covid 19 stands for certificate of vaccination identification artificial intelligence. Book of Daniel gives a time period of 60 to 70 years after the recreation of Israel before Jesus returns, which is the period we are now in. Those keeping the churches closed will end up in hell, but those continuing to believe the gospel and what Jesus Christ did must endure through all this as Satan will try to take as many souls with him and Christians are his prime target.

Can't wait.

Cluedo Monopoly · 01-11-2020 11:59pm

one world order wrote: »

Satan is trying to separate as many people from Jesus Christ before he returns. The bible specifically talks about the mark of the beast in the end times. Covid 19 is the mark. If you look at what the Luciferian illuminati occult are doing they have all the messages in plain sight. Corona stands for 666 as per the book of revelation, Covid 19 stands for certificate of vaccination identification artificial intelligence. Book of Daniel gives a time period of 60 to 70 years after the recreation of Israel before Jesus returns, which is the period we are now in. Those keeping the churches closed will end up in hell, but those continuing to believe the gospel and what Jesus Christ did must endure through all this as Satan will try to take as many souls with him and Christians are his prime target.

Do NPHET know this? Is it Level 6?

as_mo_bhosca · 02-11-2020 12:07am

A lot of catholics would want to read their bible!
Matthew 6:5-6
5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

one world order · 02-11-2020 7:56am

as_mo_bhosca wrote: »

A lot of catholics would want to read their bible!
Matthew 6:5-6
5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

This related to Pharisees with pride in their heart who wanted to be seen as holy. It is misquoted time and time again by those who don't want the gospel preached. Did Jesus stay quiet and warn people about the fires of hell that await? If one soul can be saved then it will have been worth it.

as_mo_bhosca · 02-11-2020 4:17pm

one world order wrote: »

This related to Pharisees with pride in their heart who wanted to be seen as holy. It is misquoted time and time again by those who don't want the gospel preached. Did Jesus stay quiet and warn people about the fires of hell that await? If one soul can be saved then it will have been worth it.

Nobody is stopping the gospels from being preached. Nobody is stopping mass from being said. It just cannot be done in the normal way because we are in the middle of a pandemic.
Are you honestly saying that putting thousands of lives at risk to save one soul by physical attendance at mass is worth it? That's some messed up view of things!

John Hutton · 02-11-2020 4:26pm

as_mo_bhosca wrote: »

Nobody is stopping the gospels from being preached. Nobody is stopping mass from being said. It just cannot be done in the normal way because we are in the middle of a pandemic.
Are you honestly saying that print thousands of lives at risk to save one soul by physical attendance at mass is worth it? That's some messed up view of things!

Where is the evidence that Mass attendance is putting thousands of lives at risk?

Remember, at level three you can do things like getting your hair cut but can't go to Mass. Why not allow it, with due restrictions in numbers, masks, distancing etc. at level three and only ban it at level five/full lockdown?

I have made this point many times on this thread but it seems to be missed, for Catholics, watching Mass on TV is not the same as attending Mass. When you attend at Mass you assist at it, i.e. the sacrifice, and obviously can receive Eucharist. Watching it on TV, while it has some merits, is no where near the same, religiously speaking, as being there. It's not a case of it being "not as good" but rather fundamentally different.

Now, a protestant of certain denominations may argue that there is not a root difference (fundamentally) for them by not being able to attend divine worship and instead watching on TV, but it is different for Catholics, but they would still argue, as they have in the north and the UK at the moment, that worship should be allowed.

as_mo_bhosca · 02-11-2020 6:33pm

John Hutton wrote: »

Where is the evidence that Mass attendance is putting thousands of lives at risk?

Remember, at level three you can do things like getting your hair cut but can't go to Mass. Why not allow it, with due restrictions in numbers, masks, distancing etc. at level three and only ban it at level five/full lockdown?

I have made this point many times on this thread but it seems to be missed, for Catholics, watching Mass on TV is not the same as attending Mass. When you attend at Mass you assist at it, i.e. the sacrifice, and obviously can receive Eucharist. Watching it on TV, while it has some merits, is no where near the same, religiously speaking, as being there. It's not a case of it being "not as good" but rather fundamentally different.

Now, a protestant of certain denominations may argue that there is not a root difference (fundamentally) for them by not being able to attend divine worship and instead watching on TV, but it is different for Catholics, but they would still argue, as they have in the north and the UK at the moment, that worship should be allowed.

It boils down to the fact that being indoors with a large crowd for an extended period of time puts more people at higher risk than needs be. I do get how important it is to some people, but it doesn't change the fact that it really is not essential. It's not important to the economy and let's face it, most parishes have quite a surplus every year so they are not short of a few quid from the collection plate. I know that one parish in Tralee has had a surplus intake of over 100k in each of the last 2 years.
There has not been 1 really good argument for allowing masses to be honest.

John Hutton · 02-11-2020 7:16pm

as_mo_bhosca wrote: »

It boils down to the fact that being indoors with a large crowd for an extended period of time puts more people at higher risk than needs be. I do get how important it is to some people, but it doesn't change the fact that it really is not essential. It's not important to the economy and let's face it, most parishes have quite a surplus every year so they are not short of a few quid from the collection plate. I know that one parish in Tralee has had a surplus intake of over 100k in each of the last 2 years.
There has not been 1 really good argument for allowing masses to be honest.

It's fifty people, all masked and socially distanced at 2 meters. There will be more people in a supermarket, which would probably be a smaller building.

Your definition of "essential" is merely based on the economy? Would you also ban weddings and funerals? (at which 25 are currently allowed)? Why has pretty much the entire rest of the world, including secular France, decided not to ban Mass? They seem to think that exercising a fundamental human right is "essential".

Since when is going to Mass about money? People are not asking to go to Mass so they can make a donation. It probably would be easier for many priests if the churches remained closed for the duration but the Bishops have reacted to pressure from the laity on this point who are annoyed at being denied access to Mass for an indefinite period.

Irish Archbishops call for Catholics to be allowed to attend Mass

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