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Mayo GAA Discussion - Part 4

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  • #6902
    LeoB
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,256 ✭✭✭LeoB


    muddle84 wrote: »
    Yes, players need game time to develop. But surely they need game time with the experienced lads? How do they improve with all the lads to show them the way are watching from the benches?
    Rotating players. Put out a core of 8/9 players. Kerry, Dublin, Tipp, Kilkenny do it.
    wirelessdude01 wrote: »
    Mix and match. A lot of young/inexperienced players don't get a proper chance.

    You see how they fit in with the more elite lads and whether they can rise to their level.

    Players get disillusioned if they dont get a chance, a fair chance. It can chip away at them. Their confidence grows when they get serious game time. You keep your big players fresh as well.


  • #6903
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,445 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    LeoB wrote: »
    Rotating players. Put out a core of 8/9 players. Kerry, Dublin, Tipp, Kilkenny do it.



    Players get disillusioned if they dont get a chance, a fair chance. It can chip away at them. Their confidence grows when they get serious game time. You keep your big players fresh as well.

    Like throwing a group of lads together for an FBD game and casting some of them onto the scrap heap based on a game like that is silly to me.

    Reminds me of underage trials back in the day for county. Sure everyone played totally as individuals so often good players were ignored.


  • #6904
    seligehgit
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,286 ✭✭✭seligehgit


    Cillian was on Morning Ireland today.

    "Dreaming is futile"

    Here's his interview on the Game On podcast,starts at 23.40.

    First ever listen to this podcast.At times it appeared like poor Cillian was in psychiatrist's chair being interrogated by Professor Anthony Clare.

    Only a niggle post the Galway game.

    Nothing too serious.

    https://podcast.rasset.ie/podcasts/audio/2020/1027/20201027_rte2fm-gameon-gameonfull_c21856459_21856460_232_.mp3


  • #6905
    LeoB
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,256 ✭✭✭LeoB


    wirelessdude01 wrote: »
    Like throwing a group of lads together for an FBD game and casting some of them onto the scrap heap based on a game like that is silly to me.

    Reminds me of underage trials back in the day for county. Sure everyone played totally as individuals so often good players were ignored.

    Not at all. Mayo always to me field strong teams in the league. However are they tiring players out? We all know what the star players can do and unless they are injured will be playing in championship. Every inter county standard player needs game time and young lads need to be introduced. Be that FBD or NFL. No point giving them half an hour ear mark 2 or 3 and go with them. The way teams play now is far removed from old days individuals doing their own thing.


  • #6906
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,445 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    LeoB wrote: »
    Not at all. Mayo always to me field strong teams in the league. However are they tiring players out? We all know what the star players can do and unless they are injured will be playing in championship. Every inter county standard player needs game time and young lads need to be introduced. Be that FBD or NFL. No point giving them half an hour ear mark 2 or 3 and go with them. The way teams play now is far removed from old days individuals doing their own thing.

    Think you've misunderstood me.

    I'm all for playing the young lads but not a group of them. Slot them in alongside some established lads who can guide them.


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  • #6907
    PARlance
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,070 ✭✭✭✭PARlance


    LeoB wrote: »
    Not at all. Mayo always to me field strong teams in the league. However are they tiring players out? We all know what the star players can do and unless they are injured will be playing in championship. Every inter county standard player needs game time and young lads need to be introduced. Be that FBD or NFL. No point giving them half an hour ear mark 2 or 3 and go with them. The way teams play now is far removed from old days individuals doing their own thing.

    I think there's a misconception out there that we don't try out players. Maybe something that goes along with the aging team narrative.

    For example, the starting team vs Galway, a high pressure match, had only 7 players who I would regard as regulars and 2 others who have been around a fair bit. Similar type teams were put out all league iirc.

    To answer the question, I do think we're trying players out and I think it goes a bit unnoticed even in Mayo.


  • #6908
    Green&Red
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,708 ✭✭✭✭Green&Red


    Agreed Parlance, not sure where this idea that we don’t blood new players is coming from. It’s been one of Horan’s strongest attributes in his second reign and I wouldn’t be a massive fan


    Taking the Monaghan game as an example

    MAYO: Rob Hennelly; Lee Keegan, Oisín Mullin, Pádraig O’Hora; Jordan Flynn, Michael Plunkett, Paddy Durcan; Stephen Coen, Aidan O’Shea; Diarmuid O’Connor, Ryan O’Donoghue, Fergal Boland; Kevin McLoughlin, Darren Coen, James Durcan.

    Subs: Tommy Conroy for Boland (H-T), Keith Higgins for J Durcan (57), Paul Towey for D Coen (64), Eoin O’Donoghue for Plunkett (68), James Carr for R O’Donoghue (70+3).


    9/10 of the starters wouldn’t be on our strongest 15 and probably 3 of the subs


  • #6909
    seligehgit
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,286 ✭✭✭seligehgit


    Green&Red wrote: »
    Agreed Parlance, not sure where this idea that we don’t blood new players is coming from. It’s been one of Horan’s strongest attributes in his second reign and I wouldn’t be a massive fan


    Taking the Monaghan game as an example

    MAYO: Rob Hennelly; Lee Keegan, Oisín Mullin, Pádraig O’Hora; Jordan Flynn, Michael Plunkett, Paddy Durcan; Stephen Coen, Aidan O’Shea; Diarmuid O’Connor, Ryan O’Donoghue, Fergal Boland; Kevin McLoughlin, Darren Coen, James Durcan.

    Subs: Tommy Conroy for Boland (H-T), Keith Higgins for J Durcan (57), Paul Towey for D Coen (64), Eoin O’Donoghue for Plunkett (68), James Carr for R O’Donoghue (70+3).


    9/10 of the starters wouldn’t be on our strongest 15 and probably 3 of the subs

    Not trying to be too pedantic but of course by definition being so.:)

    There's a recycling of some players previously tried.Michael Plunkett,Fergal Boland,Darren Coen,James Durcan are hardly fresh blood.It could be argued Eoin O Donoghue,James Carr are under utilised for whatever reasons (injury or otherwise).

    I certainly would not be arguing for a gung ho attitude to introducing new players.

    The introduction of Tommy Conroy, Oisin Mullin into the fray are no brainers but TBF to James Horan his introduction of Eoghan Mc Loughlin and Mark Moran, ditto Paul Towey's cameo the last day will hopefully pay dividends in the longer term.Ryan O Donoghue is such an intelligent footballer.Hope Jordan Flynn gets further opportunities if he gets a handle on his on field discipline.

    His failure to blood a new goalkeeper is a glaring blind spot.

    I'd be happier if a goalkeeper for the future was given game time as opposed to the number 2.


  • #6910
    PARlance
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,070 ✭✭✭✭PARlance


    seligehgit wrote: »
    Not trying to be too pedantic but of course by definition being so.:)

    There's a recycling of some players previously tried.Michael Plunkett,Fergal Boland,Darren Coen,James Durcan are hardly fresh blood.It could be argued Eoin O Donoghue,James Carr are under utilised for whatever reasons (injury or otherwise).

    I certainly would not be arguing for a gung ho attitude to introducing new players.

    The introduction of Tommy Conroy, Oisin Mullin into the fray are no brainers but TBF to James Horan his introduction of Eoghan Mc Loughlin and Mark Moran, ditto Paul Towey's cameo the last day will hopefully pay dividends in the longer term.Ryan O Donoghue is such an intelligent footballer.Hope Jordan Flynn gets further opportunities if he gets a handle on his on field discipline.

    His failure to blood a new goalkeeper is a glaring blind spot.

    I'd be happier if a goalkeeper for the future was given game time as opposed to the number 2.

    I do agree and was going to mention it in my post (but it was late) that there is a lot of this "recycling" of players. I wouldn't have coined the phrase as perfectly!

    I would probably split that recycling group of players in two. Some of them being realistic squad players come Championship, with the other group, a group that probably won't feature. From the 4 you mention, I think Coen and Boland are good squad players who should be involved in the League and could add something in Championship. I wouldn't class Plunkett or Durcan in the same bracket, I just think there's a few better players in their positions. I think there's a valid argument that some of these players are impeding the chances of younger ones.

    The keeper situation is a strange one but despite weaknesses in both Clarke and Hennelly, I think they've probably been a good step ahead of any alternatives up until now but now is the time to try out a few younger lads imo.


  • #6911
    PARlance
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,070 ✭✭✭✭PARlance


    Green&Red wrote: »
    Agreed Parlance, not sure where this idea that we don’t blood new players is coming from. It’s been one of Horan’s strongest attributes in his second reign and I wouldn’t be a massive fan


    Taking the Monaghan game as an example

    MAYO: Rob Hennelly; Lee Keegan, Oisín Mullin, Pádraig O’Hora; Jordan Flynn, Michael Plunkett, Paddy Durcan; Stephen Coen, Aidan O’Shea; Diarmuid O’Connor, Ryan O’Donoghue, Fergal Boland; Kevin McLoughlin, Darren Coen, James Durcan.

    Subs: Tommy Conroy for Boland (H-T), Keith Higgins for J Durcan (57), Paul Towey for D Coen (64), Eoin O’Donoghue for Plunkett (68), James Carr for R O’Donoghue (70+3).


    9/10 of the starters wouldn’t be on our strongest 15 and probably 3 of the subs

    I would give Rochford a lot of credit as well. I think he got the ball rolling. When he took over we were going into big games with the likes of Dublin and our bench wasn't deep enough to compete. I think he seen that and started the ball rolling on beefing up the squad. He had the benefit of the strong u21 team from 2016 but he did a very good job of starting to get them integrated imo.


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  • #6912
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,445 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    Realistically we should never have anyone on the bench that can't be trusted in the white heat of a championship pace game.


  • #6913
    Audioslaven
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,474 ✭✭✭Audioslaven


    PARlance wrote: »
    I would give Rochford a lot of credit as well. I think he got the ball rolling. When he took over we were going into big games with the likes of Dublin and our bench wasn't deep enough to compete. I think he seen that and started the ball rolling on beefing up the squad. He had the benefit of the strong u21 team from 2016 but he did a very good job of starting to get them integrated imo.


    Its funny that you see Rochford as starting that. I actually think the opposite and was part of his down fall. He basically used most of the players from the Horan V1 time. It's only when Horan came back that I have seen some new quality players pushing through.

    I was listening to John Giles on soccer one evening when he was talking about managers stressing about bringing on new young players and that it was BS really. Managers have a slight view to the future but they are really only focused on the here and now. It reminded me of the Rochford era


  • #6914
    Blackjack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,662 ✭✭✭Blackjack


    Audioslaven wrote: »
    Its funny that you see Rochford as starting that. I actually think the opposite and was part of his down fall. He basically used most of the players from the Horan V1 time. It's only when Horan came back that I have seen some new quality players pushing through.

    I was listening to John Giles on soccer one evening when he was talking about managers stressing about bringing on new young players and that it was BS really. Managers have a slight view to the future but they are really only focused on the here and now. It reminded me of the Rochford era

    I think Rochford really did start that and he blooded a lot of players in his time. this post by Parlance back in 2017 has a lot of detail from that point in time
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=104256276&postcount=1018

    He also brought in a number of others like Nally, Kirby, Newcombe got a shot too as I recall.
    If there were better players available and untried I don't believe anyone was shouting about it at the time.


  • #6915
    PARlance
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,070 ✭✭✭✭PARlance


    Blackjack wrote: »
    I think Rochford really did start that and he blooded a lot of players in his time. this post by Parlance back in 2017 has a lot of detail from that point in time
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=104256276&postcount=1018

    He also brought in a number of others like Nally, Kirby, Newcombe got a shot too as I recall.
    If there were better players available and untried I don't believe anyone was shouting about it at the time.

    Ya it's something that he doesn't get the credit he deserves imo. I think his input as a manager is generally overlooked to a certain degree. Maybe because he wasn't a big name/ didn't have a huge playing career and in turn didn't have that aura that goes along with it. But in a relatively short time we went from a team with very little options from the bench (I think people easily forget this) to a team that could bring on 5 or so subs to go toe to toe with Dublins bench (albeit not with the attacking strength in depth), and using that strength in depth to get us over the line in many big and not so big games.

    Gavin changed the way subs were used and Rochford helped us get very close to a similar set up imo.


  • #6916
    seligehgit
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,286 ✭✭✭seligehgit


    There's seems to be some grounds to the rumour re the reconfiguration (geographical ) of the league setup.

    Primarily to reduce travel as much as possible.


  • #6917
    km79
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 48,462 ✭✭✭✭km79


    seligehgit wrote: »
    There's seems to be some grounds to the rumour re the reconfiguration (geographical ) of the league setup.

    Primarily to reduce travel as much as possible.



  • #6918
    Blackjack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,662 ✭✭✭Blackjack


    PARlance wrote: »
    Ya it's something that he doesn't get the credit he deserves imo. I think his input as a manager is generally overlooked to a certain degree. Maybe because he wasn't a big name/ didn't have a huge playing career and in turn didn't have that aura that goes along with it. But in a relatively short time we went from a team with very little options from the bench (I think people easily forget this) to a team that could bring on 5 or so subs to go toe to toe with Dublins bench (albeit not with the attacking strength in depth), and using that strength in depth to get us over the line in many big and not so big games.

    Gavin changed the way subs were used and Rochford helped us get very close to a similar set up imo.

    Yep. I think people also forgot that he still is (I believe) the only man to win the All Ireland Senior Club Championship as a player and as a manager.


  • #6919
    spakman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,302 ✭✭✭spakman


    Blackjack wrote: »
    Yep. I think people also forgot that he still is (I believe) the only man to win the All Ireland Senior Club Championship as a player and as a manager.

    Rochford is a great manager in terms of match ups and gameplans. 2017 final was most completr Mayo performance I've ever seen.
    But bringing new players through was a weakness imo. Even in the league he kept playing the "big" players, there was very little chance given to new players to make a mark. And that's ultimately what cost us in those finals, we had nobody to bring off the bench that could make an impact. How could they - they had hardly played any football!


  • #6920
    Blackjack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,662 ✭✭✭Blackjack


    spakman wrote: »
    Rochford is a great manager in terms of match ups and gameplans. 2017 final was most completr Mayo performance I've ever seen.
    But bringing new players through was a weakness imo. Even in the league he kept playing the "big" players, there was very little chance given to new players to make a mark. And that's ultimately what cost us in those finals, we had nobody to bring off the bench that could make an impact. How could they - they had hardly played any football!
    Not sure I’d agree with that. I recall he brought on Kirby, Drake and Loftus in that final, all of whom had plenty of game time during the year. I don’t think it was the lack of game time that impacted the subs rather the quality of what we had available compared to our opponents.


  • #6921
    spakman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,302 ✭✭✭spakman


    Blackjack wrote: »
    Not sure I’d agree with that. I recall he brought on Kirby, Drake and Loftus in that final, all of whom had plenty of game time during the year. I don’t think it was the lack of game time that impacted the subs rather the quality of what we had available compared to our opponents.

    And why had we a lack of quality on the bench compared to now? Is it just that Horan got lucky (again) and came along when a new crop of youngsters were ready to make the break through?
    Anyway, I don't want to spend time running down Rochford, I think he's a class act and would love to see him back involved with Mayo in some capacity.


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  • #6922
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,445 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    spakman wrote: »
    And why had we a lack of quality on the bench compared to now? Is it just that Horan got lucky (again) and came along when a new crop of youngsters were ready to make the break through?
    Anyway, I don't want to spend time running down Rochford, I think he's a class act and would love to see him back involved with Mayo in some capacity.

    I'd love for him to take the u20s next year but that will never happen. I'd imagine that JH wouldn't want him involved.


  • #6923
    Blackjack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,662 ✭✭✭Blackjack


    spakman wrote: »
    And why had we a lack of quality on the bench compared to now? Is it just that Horan got lucky (again) and came along when a new crop of youngsters were ready to make the break through?
    Anyway, I don't want to spend time running down Rochford, I think he's a class act and would love to see him back involved with Mayo in some capacity.

    I think lets wait until we see how we do in the championship before we start lauding the bench just yet. As I've said before if there were better players available in the county that weren't on the panel in 2017 I've yet to hear them being mentioned.


  • #6924
    RedDevil55
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 820 ✭✭✭RedDevil55


    spakman wrote: »
    And why had we a lack of quality on the bench compared to now? Is it just that Horan got lucky (again) and came along when a new crop of youngsters were ready to make the break through?
    Anyway, I don't want to spend time running down Rochford, I think he's a class act and would love to see him back involved with Mayo in some capacity.

    I also have great time for Rochford. He had us set up brilliantly in 2016 and 17 but bringing through new players wasn't his strong point. We had a core group of around 16 or 17 players and after that there was a big drop off. It was very obvious in Newbridge 2018 when we had a few injuries. Even on a roasting hot day he only made 2 subs before injury time.

    You can argue that our team was much harder to break into back then but I still feel Rochford didn't trust anyone outside his first 15.


  • #6925
    Audioslaven
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,474 ✭✭✭Audioslaven


    spakman wrote: »
    Rochford is a great manager in terms of match ups and gameplans. 2017 final was most completr Mayo performance I've ever seen.
    But bringing new players through was a weakness imo. Even in the league he kept playing the "big" players, there was very little chance given to new players to make a mark. And that's ultimately what cost us in those finals, we had nobody to bring off the bench that could make an impact. How could they - they had hardly played any football!

    100%. While rochford may have brought players in, he never got them to a level where they added value. Horan is more open to youth but this time he has to as the age profile is alot older. We have three examples this year where players have come in and shown value to the team. Time will tell if they really make it but he is not afraid to do this unlike Rochford.


  • #6926
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,445 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    Those looking for championship debutants have them, seven in total is my estimate from that team.

    Mayo team v Leitrim: David Clarke; Oisin Mullin, Stephen Coen, Lee Keegan; Paddy Durcan, Rory Brickenden, Eoghan McLaughlin; Mattie Ruane, Conor Loftus; Bryan Walsh, Ryan O’Donoghue, Jordan Flynn; Tommy Conroy, Aidan O’Shea, Cillian O’Connor.


  • #6927
    flasher0030
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,080 ✭✭✭flasher0030


    Audioslaven wrote: »
    100%. While rochford may have brought players in, he never got them to a level where they added value. Horan is more open to youth but this time he has to as the age profile is alot older. We have three examples this year where players have come in and shown value to the team. Time will tell if they really make it but he is not afraid to do this unlike Rochford.

    That's not a fair comparison. If we take the new players that Horan has at his disposal this year, it's exceptional - Oisin Mullen, Eoin McLaighlean,
    Tommy Conroy, Mark Moran. James Horan has nothing to do with their development. They carved that out themselves through their club performances. It's not like Horan unearthed them. Every dog on the street was aware of these guys potential over the past 2 years.
    Now compare that to the couple of players named in a few posts previously that Rochford had to bring on in Croke Park - Danny Kirby, David Drake and Conor Loftus. There is no comparison. Kirby and Drake are never going to make a telling contribution to a match at intercounty level. And Loftus has no pace for a forward, and therefore will not do damage against a high performing team like Dublin or Kerry.


  • #6928
    Always_Running
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,839 ✭✭✭Always_Running


    wirelessdude01 wrote: »
    Those looking for championship debutants have them, seven in total is my estimate from that team.

    Mayo team v Leitrim: David Clarke; Oisin Mullin, Stephen Coen, Lee Keegan; Paddy Durcan, Rory Brickenden, Eoghan McLaughlin; Mattie Ruane, Conor Loftus; Bryan Walsh, Ryan O’Donoghue, Jordan Flynn; Tommy Conroy, Aidan O’Shea, Cillian O’Connor.

    Must be a record on debut players in a championship game for Mayo?

    Be interesting too see how many of the experienced heads T Parsons, D Vaughan, K Higgins, C Boyle, C Barrett, S O Shea,K McLoughlin make the bench this weekend.


  • #6929
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,445 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    Is this Brickendens first senior start?


  • #6930
    charlie14
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,625 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    spakman wrote: »
    And why had we a lack of quality on the bench compared to now? Is it just that Horan got lucky (again) and came along when a new crop of youngsters were ready to make the break through?
    Anyway, I don't want to spend time running down Rochford, I think he's a class act and would love to see him back involved with Mayo in some capacity.


    Well I for one am very happy with Rochford staying where he is with Donegal

    But then to quote Mandy Rice-Davies "He would say that, wouldn`t he" :o


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  • #6931
    km79
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 48,462 ✭✭✭✭km79


    wirelessdude01 wrote: »
    Is this Brickendens first senior start?

    He looks physically very big in the photo
    Appropriately named !

    Nice to see a bit of youth
    Not sure that team will start but I did question whether Diarmuid would keep his place after two quietish games
    We will have some options off the bench now too !

    Actually looking At the HF line again I don’t know will it start as named
    Kevin MC will either come in for one of them or Brick


This discussion has been closed.
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