Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VI - Read OP for Mod Warnings

Coillte_Bhoy · 23-10-2020 11:06PM

timeToLive wrote: »

What do you think would happen if the guards stopped o'holohan? Please outline™

In what circumstances? You know that would be kind of relevant. I suspect if anecdotal evidence is anything to go by he'd be waved on like the vast, majority of motorists seem to be

road_high · 23-10-2020 11:21PM

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Of course hes not democrtiacly elected? I mean seriously wtf has that to do with anything? NPHET is an advisory body, remember the Govt ignoring their original level 5 advice and ignoring their advice re testing at airports? Remember that no?

As an aside I Also remember Nphet not recommending restrictions to nursing homes early on....
But that’s digressing. I am Not sure you understand or comprehend the biggger picture- I have a massive problem (as do many others) with a non elected body influencing major restrictions to pretty basic civil liberties and our government then rubber stamping them without question- if you don’t see a problem with that then I’m really not sure there’s anything else I can say to convince you otherwise. I’m not wedded to Nphet and dont see them as any way credible

Stormyteacup · 23-10-2020 11:22PM

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Of course hes not democrtiacly elected? I mean seriously wtf has that to do with anything? NPHET is an advisory body, remember the Govt ignoring their original level 5 advice and ignoring their advice re testing at airports? Remember that no?

Almost all decisions and policy making since March have been made solely on the advice of NPHET.

Vast amounts of media evidence of our elected officials bowing down to Tony’s advisory group, and absenting themselves of any responsibility. Bit too much power to hand over no?

Some, rightly, have an issue with a narrow-remit advisory body talking up a storm about a weak almost-pandemic calling the shots on this country’s future.

road_high · 23-10-2020 11:24PM

Stormyteacup wrote: »

Yes would rather be strapped to a chair with my eyelids forced open, on a caffeine drip for seven consecutive 24 hour periods watching tubs reruns, than listen to 5 seconds of odious Tony.

He’s a wrong ‘un, and I hope you’re right and he’s exposed in due course.

Look we already know enough about him ever before Nphet to be honest. In due course there probably will be some tribunal or other into the handling of this whole thing down the tracks once a clearer picture of the damage is more apparent-

MelbourneMan · 23-10-2020 11:30PM

road_high wrote: »

We are in a level 5 lockdown thanks to his latest posturing meltdown- he isn’t a democratically elected figure but managed to strong arm our government into yet more of his already failed lockdown dogma.

Did Tubs ask him how he’d feel being forced to live on €350 or less per week? No? Didn’t think so.

Hello. Ireland is in a level 5 lockdown - and lockdown is a little misleading given the great part of the economy and society that are still operating - because an extensive committee of the best knowledge the country can muster, advise this course of action as the best option available, according to their analysis of the situation. This is considered by a cabinet subcommittee, approved by the cabinet, and not contested, let alone rejected by the Dail.
This is a functioning civil service, medical science and expertise, and democracy, acting exactly as designed, for the good interests of the people that designed this structure, participate in it, and exercise their franchise freely to direct it.
Your question is ill informed, misguided, demonstrates a poor grasp of the factors at play, and petty in the extreme.

timeToLive · 23-10-2020 11:36PM

MelbourneMan wrote: »

Hello. Ireland is in a level 5 lockdown - and lockdown is a little misleading given the great part of the economy and society that are still operating - because an extensive committee of the best knowledge the country can muster, advise this course of action as the best option available, according to their analysis of the situation. This is considered by a cabinet subcommittee, approved by the cabinet, and not contested, let alone rejected by the Dail.
This is a functioning civil service, medical science and expertise, and democracy, acting exactly as designed, for the good interests of the people that designed this structure, participate in it, and exercise their franchise freely to direct it.
Your question is ill informed, misguided, demonstrates a poor grasp of the factors at play, and petty in the extreme.

Go back to Melbourne, man

"for the good interests of the people" is debateable

road_high · 23-10-2020 11:37PM

Also if Nphet are “just an advisory body to the government “ why are they constantly on tv? Anyone who wastes a Friday night watching Tubs moralise and whip up hysteria was just treated to another dose of Holohan- this advice can be given behind closed doors to the Government- this isn’t proper conduct at all but such is the Covid mania we are under as a country no one hardly questions it or dares call halt

acequion · 23-10-2020 11:41PM

I've just had the week from hell due to level 5 being panic announced on Monday, forcing me and many like me into massive inconvenience. And I'm well aware that I'm lucky that it's only inconvenience. That said I'm trying to look after my 90 year old mother while teaching in a huge school which registered cases this week. That scenario does make this lockdown malarky look idiotic because people like us really are courting danger every day, but the whole approach in this country is nuts anyway.

So I had neither time nor patience for King Tony on the telly tonight but I did hear on him on the radio during the week. If you were a foreigner just arrived you'd be certain you were listening to the country's leader. The man came across just like a politician. Smooth answers, evasive where necessary and wow was the man full of himself! On the GAA games it was "we decided" people need an outlet and when asked what about other outlets, cue a smooth answer that it's not a "value judgement" on hobbies, just what "we decided." I really didn't think I'd be deferring to someone like this when I cast my ballot last February.

normanoffside · 23-10-2020 11:48PM

acequion wrote: »

On the GAA games it was "we decided" people need an outlet and when asked what about other outlets, cue a smooth answer that it's not a "value judgement" on hobbies, just what "we decided." I really didn't think I'd be deferring to someone like this when I cast my ballot last February.

Don't be playing golf or tennis, don't go cycling or for a walk outside you 5km zone.
We have decided on balance that we don't want anyone enjoying themselves because unless we all live in misery then we cannot control their behaviour.

In return we'll throw you a few scraps like sport on TV; now be grateful.
Good'day.

Cluedo Monopoly · 23-10-2020 11:52PM

I cant believe Tony is on the LLS show again. I do not watch the LLS as a rule since Tubs took it over but Tony needs to do his job and stay out of the limelight.

I wonder did Tubs ask him about his treatment of the cervical check ladies.

JoeA3 · 24-10-2020 12:07AM

road_high wrote: »

Also if Nphet are “just an advisory body to the government “ why are they constantly on tv? Anyone who wastes a Friday night watching Tubs moralise and whip up hysteria was just treated to another dose of Holohan- this advice can be given behind closed doors to the Government- this isn’t proper conduct at all but such is the Covid mania we are under as a country no one hardly questions it or dares call halt

This grinds my gears. If he is simply the head of a group of experts which advise the Government, the general public should barely be aware of his existence, never mind knowing him by first name and seeing him on prime time TV on a Friday night. Could you imagine Graham Norton having the UK equivalent on his show. No! It’s mad. We also have the likes of McConkey, Luke O’Neill and the irrepressible George Lee all milking the situation for all its worth. Luke even has a book out with bollox in the title I think. How apt.

46 Long · 24-10-2020 12:11AM

snowcat wrote: »

Was out today, saw lots of the vulnerable cohort breaking the lockdown out walking shopping etc. We (the under 60's)are making a massive sacrifice in terms of our freedoms and economic health to help these subset. The least anyone could do who is over 60 is to isolate or cocoon. We should be looking at fines for these people if they break the lockdown. A mask is not an excuse to go shopping. It does not prevent transmission of Covid as we are learning slowly.

I'm no great fan of NPHET but even at their most craven I don't think Tony H and the boys would suggest starving the over 60s and confining them to house arrest for their own good.

Dickie10 · 24-10-2020 12:16AM

so what do we do about it? time is coming we need to get a grip on this and it may come down to the people doing it. im no looney lefty but i think all right minded people see there is no plan , level3-5 on loop for perhaps the next 2 years. just let that sink into people, think of all that will be gone. we need to take the pain, and thats living with covid , the same we we live with influenza and cancer, we take chances. we start living again. ciggerattes are legal to buy, they give you cancer, alchol wrecks your liver , its legal. life is about chance.

normanoffside · 24-10-2020 12:28AM

Looks like the Italians are even beginning to realise they were sold a pup, after they after now being threatened with a second lockdown.

You have to bear in mind that the whole country was locked inside for 4 months even though they actually had close to zero deaths in many regions.

https://twitter.com/BNODesk/status/1319778759109640195

normanoffside · 24-10-2020 12:32AM

We need this here, not just loony right protests.

https://twitter.com/BNODesk/status/1319773987510099970

road_high · 24-10-2020 12:34AM

Lot of unrest and kickback against this lockdown rubbish across the continent now - see not everyone has a cushy, permanent, public service job with guaranteed salaries, wfh and nothing to lose like Holohan or Tubs

road_high · 24-10-2020 12:40AM

Countries like Italy and Spain and allover the south are full of little small family businesses and many of them very tied to the tourism trade- these people have had an awful year and the welfare supports would not be as good as here- I’m not surprised to see much of the kickback there tbh

normanoffside · 24-10-2020 12:41AM

road_high wrote: »

Lot of unrest and kickback against this lockdown rubbish across the continent now - see not everyone has a cushy, permanent, public service job with guaranteed salaries, wfh and nothing to lose like Holohan or Tubs

For context, this region of Italy had 400 deaths in a population of 6 million 'from covid', yet they were all completely locked down (china style) for 4 months. Now they are being threatened with a lockdown again because case number are rising (but not deaths or hospitalisations). No wonder they are furious.

tjdaly · 24-10-2020 12:51AM

normanoffside wrote: »

We need this here, not just loony right protests.

Don't believe everything you read? I observed a protest in Cork a week or so ago and there was a very gentle crowd, all ages, both sexes, with what mostly seemed to be a hippyish vibe. Hardly thronged with the far right from what I could see.

acequion · 24-10-2020 12:55AM

Continentals are reactive. Unlike the Irish who sleepwalk their way through life. Also, generally speaking, there is a stronger connect between the people and their leaders in Europe. The people have more power and leaders generally know how far to push. This is my own take from years living in Europe. Whereas here, citizens have no power and no voice and don't even bother voicing it when they can.

That said, I've no idea what's happening in Europe atm because I'm too busy trying to adapt to constant changes here. But unless things get very bad I don't see Irish style restrictions succeeding anywhere else. And I hope not. As I wouldn't wish this shyte on anybody!

normanoffside · 24-10-2020 01:07AM

tjdaly wrote: »

Don't believe everything you read? I observed a protest in Cork a week or so ago and there was a very gentle crowd, all ages, both sexes, with what mostly seemed to be a hippyish vibe. Hardly thronged with the far right from what I could see.

I'd go any time but every time i see an organised protest it has been organised by a fascist group or extreme right wing political party..

I'd love to see a 'neutral protest' like in Naples

normanoffside · 24-10-2020 01:10AM

tjdaly wrote: »

Don't believe everything you read? I observed a protest in Cork a week or so ago and there was a very gentle crowd, all ages, both sexes, with what mostly seemed to be a hippyish vibe. Hardly thronged with the far right from what I could see.

By the way it's not about what I read, I went along to observe a few protests from the side and I just can't abide the protesters (or the anti protesters for that matter)

dalyboy · 24-10-2020 01:58AM

acequion wrote: »

Continentals are reactive. Unlike the Irish who sleepwalk their way through life. Also, generally speaking, there is a stronger connect between the people and their leaders in Europe. The people have more power and leaders generally know how far to push. This is my own take from years living in Europe. Whereas here, citizens have no power and no voice and don't even bother voicing it when they can.

That said, I've no idea what's happening in Europe atm because I'm too busy trying to adapt to constant changes here. But unless things get very bad I don't see Irish style restrictions succeeding anywhere else. And I hope not. As I wouldn't wish this shyte on anybody!

These type of protests will shortly follow all over Europe.

I agree ref Irish protest style and it’s totally unfit for purpose. It’s all very convenient that the protests in Ireland have been either far right along with the tag along looney left always present. (Puts middle grounders on the back foot)

Problem for Irish government and their propaganda machine RTE is that the details of these foreign protests can’t be manipulated and eventually (I hope sooner rather than later) the whole house of cards collapses with truth winning over.

I’ve given up hope now that Ireland will change its covid lockdown mantra and it’ll take other European nations to rock the boat on their governments to put manners on them and make them see sense.

This allows a viable escape route for the Irish to resettle in “normal” countries as tbh I think Ireland is doomed on all fronts long term.

ThunbergsAreGo · 24-10-2020 07:37AM

road_high wrote: »

Thank him for all the useless pointless overtime their Covid lord and master keeps granting them

He should be fined for breaking the rules.

Attending a TV show is not essential or WFH. Could easily been done on Zoom. Serious hypocrisy

faceman · 24-10-2020 08:22AM

MelbourneMan wrote: »

Hello. Dr Holohan does not post here, but I can nevertheless give the the correct answers to the above.

Given how NPHET is heavily influencing social and economic decisions in an unelected capacity, it would be prudent of NPHET to engage in a public forum in the same way public officials do.

wrote:

No. Contact trace is one of a suite of countermeasure to reduce Covid 19 cases. It is not sufficient to contain it below a level that avoids restrictions, and Ireland is no different to other countries in this respect.

I flagged not too long ago how our own contact tracing is not adequate and it was shot down in thread. Since then we have had a number of issues highlighted in the media, and a number of medical practitioners have spoken out about its failings. It’s begs that question, if there are issues with our contact tracing infrastructure, what other areas of Ireland’s covid countermeasures have issues that we aren’t aware of.

wrote:

Lockdown is not a strategy, but a particular case on a sliding scale of reduces social contacts, adjustable by the government according to the priorities they place on various aspects of social, economic, and educational life. This is the strategy, and the prevailing considered expert opinion is, that while by no means ideal, it is, on balance, the best model for reacting to minimise the impact of this virus.

Lockdown is seen as a measure of last resort yet in Ireland’s case our sliding scale of measures has been somewhat taken a la carte. I raised the issue of enforcement some time ago and you responding saying it’s broadly accepted that enforcement isn’t necessary. However are now in a level 5 scenario where fines and enforcement powers are being introduced this weekend. So what changed and if fines and enforcement powers are now part of our countermeasures, why were they not introduced at earlier levels?

Coillte_Bhoy · 24-10-2020 08:27AM

faceman wrote: »

Given how NPHET is heavily influencing social and economic decisions in an unelected capacity, it would be prudent of NPHET to engage in a public forum in the same way public officials do.

I flagged not too long ago how our own contact tracing is not adequate and it was shot down in thread. Since then we have had a number of issues highlighted in the media, and a number of medical practitioners have spoken out about its failings. It’s begs that question, if there are issues with our contact tracing infrastructure, what other areas of Ireland’s covid countermeasures have issues that we aren’t aware of.

Lockdown is seen as a measure of last resort yet in Ireland’s case our sliding scale of measures has been somewhat taken a la carte. I raised the issue of enforcement some time ago and you responding saying it’s broadly accepted that enforcement isn’t necessary. However are now in a level 5 scenario where fines and enforcement powers are being introduced this weekend. So what changed and if fines and enforcement powers are now part of our countermeasures, why were they not introduced at earlier levels?

Surely its because basic guidelines and restrictions are being ignored by a substantial number of people?

zerosugarbuzz · 24-10-2020 08:33AM

normanoffside wrote: »

By the way it's not about what I read, I went along to observe a few protests from the side and I just can't abide the protesters (or the anti protesters for that matter)

Lol, can you abide anyone?

MelbourneMan · 24-10-2020 09:20AM

road_high wrote: »

Lot of unrest and kickback against this lockdown rubbish across the continent now - see not everyone has a cushy, permanent, public service job with guaranteed salaries, wfh and nothing to lose like Holohan or Tubs

Those with this view must nevertheless acknowledge, that in any country, those most expert and charged with providing epidemiological and health service advice, are unlikely to be minimum wage. If the cohort supporting the observation you make were truly able to judge the quality of the decisions, they probably wouldnt be in low wage, in unstable, or non-wfh employment in the first place. Recognition that decsions are being made for their benefit, whether they understand them or not, would be to the benefit of all, and no simply carping and dismissing the informed experts because they are in permanent well paid jobs.

CruelSummer · 24-10-2020 09:25AM

MelbourneMan wrote: »

Hello. Dr Holohan does not post here, but I can nevertheless give the the correct answers to the above.

No. Contact trace is one of a suite of countermeasure to reduce Covid 19 cases. It is not sufficient to contain it below a level that avoids restrictions, and Ireland is no different to other countries in this respect.

Lockdown is not a strategy, but a particular case on a sliding scale of reduces social contacts, adjustable by the government according to the priorities they place on various aspects of social, economic, and educational life. This is the strategy, and the prevailing considered expert opinion is, that while by no means ideal, it is, on balance, the best model for reacting to minimise the impact of this virus.

Hello MelbourneMan, thanks for the response. I understand what you're saying about contact tracing being one of a 'suite' of measures. However in our case it's a measure whose failure/collapse could have had a major part in the country going to Level 5. One which the Irish public learned of, only after the Michael Martin's speech. Their subsequent excuse of 'We weren't told' while sitting in Dáil Éireann making one of the biggest decisions the State will ever make, is akin to 'The dog ate my homework' in my view.
If lockdown is not a strategy - why was it suggested as such by NPHET as soon as Dr Holohan came back from leave. Hospitalisations and ICU were still low, and their forecast models are being hidden from the public. Why is this so? We should have the evidence upon which our lives are being affected/destroyed with.
Do you think the HSE/NPHET and Government acknowledge the failure of PCR testing to find active cases, and could perhaps provide an answer as to why the wall-to-wall propaganda continues. Endless anecdotal bad cases, bad news, where is the positives? That this virus is not as dangerous as once feared? Or does that not matter anymore?

24-10-2020 09:46AM

CruelSummer wrote: »

Hello MelbourneMan, thanks for the response. I understand what you're saying about contact tracing being one of a 'suite' of measures. However in our case it's a measure whose failure/collapse could have had a major part in the country going to Level 5. One which the Irish public learned of, only after the Michael Martin's speech. Their subsequent excuse of 'We weren't told' while sitting in Dáil Éireann making one of the biggest decisions the State will ever make, is akin to 'The dog ate my homework' in my view.
If lockdown is not a strategy - why was it suggested as such by NPHET as soon as Dr Holohan came back from leave. Hospitalisations and ICU were still low, and their forecast models are being hidden from the public. Why is this so? We should have the evidence upon which our lives are being affected/destroyed with.
Do you think the HSE/NPHET and Government acknowledge the failure of PCR testing to find active cases, and could perhaps provide an answer as to why the wall-to-wall propaganda continues. Endless anecdotal bad cases, bad news, where is the positives? That this virus is not as dangerous as once feared? Or does that not matter anymore?

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Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VI - **Read OP for Mod Warnings**

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Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VI - Read OP for Mod Warnings