Milk and Dairy

emaherx · 23-10-2020 6:50pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Yeah but you don't see me in the farming forum do you. Most of the fruit and veg comes from up the road in North Dublin actually, 55% or something.

The other 45% is still a significant amount.
I like to grow as much as I can in the back garden but variety and seasonality brings me else where too. Nobody's perfect

I don't frequent the vegan forum too often but it's a public forum and I only join in in conversations about farming. Same as other forums like AH, farm related topic appears in boards main feed an I give it a look.

ganmo · 23-10-2020 6:50pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Yeah but you don't see me in the farming forum do you. Most of the fruit and veg comes from up the road in North Dublin actually, 55% or something.

Ah gotta love those factory farms

Thelonious Monk · 23-10-2020 6:55pm

You'll all be delighted to hear CAP was again passed in EU parliament just now, a disaster for the environment and wildlife and goes totally against the EU's supposed Green deal.

Gary kk · 23-10-2020 7:00pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

You'll all be delighted to hear CAP was again passed in EU parliament just now, a disaster for the environment and wildlife and goes totally against the EU's supposed Green deal.

I don't know if I am happy or not about it tbh Thelonious, both sides only told their own story. Farmers read the same papers you do I know you won't believe me but a lot of farms are doing great work on their own backs.

emaherx · 23-10-2020 7:05pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

disaster for the environment and wildlife and goes totally against the EU's supposed Green deal.

How so?
Getting money from CAP, more and more involves signing up to environmental schemes and taking action to reduce emissions and protecting wildlife.

gozunda · 23-10-2020 7:18pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Yeah but you don't see me in the farming forum do you. Most of the fruit and veg comes from up the road in North Dublin actually, 55% or something.

Doesn't stop your regular constant moaning about farming on every other forum on Boards tbf. But hey you seem to think all farmers are the same. A question? How do you face buying food at all knowing that even with carrots that there are serious consequences for wildlife and the environment.

And I won't go into a discussion about the amount of raw **** pumped into Dublin Bay every year by the inhabitants of Dublin. Such conscience must be killing tbf.

KennisWhale · 23-10-2020 7:45pm

“It’s pathetic that the parliament wouldn’t even stand up to the industrial agriculture lobbyists on this,” Greenpeace EU agriculture policy director Marco Contiero put in a statement.

“The votes won’t change the fact that more and more people are eating more vegetables and switching to meat and dairy alternatives for the sake of their health and the environment, and will continue to call dairy-free products ‘yogurt’ and ‘cheese’ anyway.”

Spot on. Fcuk them.

eviltwin · 23-10-2020 7:49pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Why are we allowed say peanut butter?

And coconut milk

gozunda · 23-10-2020 7:52pm

eviltwin wrote: »

And coconut milk

Coconuts are absolute fekers to milk I can tell you ...

emaherx · 23-10-2020 7:56pm

KennisWhale wrote: »

“It’s pathetic that the parliament wouldn’t even stand up to the industrial agriculture lobbyists on this,” Greenpeace EU agriculture policy director Marco Contiero put in a statement.

“The votes won’t change the fact that more and more people are eating more vegetables and switching to meat and dairy alternatives for the sake of their health and the environment, and will continue to call dairy-free products ‘yogurt’ and ‘cheese’ anyway.”

Spot on. Fcuk them.

It's fairly pathetic that most of producers of these alternatives to meat and dairy still claim to be healthier and more environmentally friendly. It's fair enough if someone wants to eat them as a treat as an alternative to eating animals but the jury's out on them being either healthier or more environmentally friendly, more and more studies are not finding in their favour.

That's not a particular dig at vegan foods in general just those particular extremely processed products and I'm not talking about the more traditional veggie burgers, I'd actually prefer one of them to any of the meat like alternatives.

Gael23 · 23-10-2020 7:58pm

Also if any dairy cow gives birth to a male calf it’s considered waste product and usually shot at birth

gozunda · 23-10-2020 7:58pm

KennisWhale wrote: »

“It’s pathetic that the parliament wouldn’t even stand up to the industrial agriculture lobbyists on this,” Greenpeace EU agriculture policy director Marco Contiero put in a statement.
“The votes won’t change the fact that more and more people are eating more vegetables and switching to meat and dairy alternatives for the sake of their health and the environment, and will continue to call dairy-free products ‘yogurt’ and ‘cheese’ anyway.”
Spot on. Fcuk them.

You do now realise that the "industrial agriculture lobbyists" include those of the highly processed plant food lobby like Unilever yes?

Eating 'vegetables' doesn't magically save the environment btw. Some of the most intensive and highest input types of agriculture are intensive horticulture and arable production. But yeah fcuk them yeah?

emaherx · 23-10-2020 8:07pm

Gael23 wrote: »

Also if any dairy cow gives birth to a male calf it’s considered waste product and usually shot at birth

Nope, not the norm here by any stretch of the imagination. But why let the truth get in the way of a good story.

White Clover · 23-10-2020 8:11pm

Gael23 wrote: »

Also if any dairy cow gives birth to a male calf it’s considered waste product and usually shot at birth

Such a ridiculous post. Ignorance is bliss...

NcdJd · 23-10-2020 8:30pm

KennisWhale wrote: »

“It’s pathetic that the parliament wouldn’t even stand up to the industrial agriculture lobbyists on this,” Greenpeace EU agriculture policy director Marco Contiero put in a statement.

“The votes won’t change the fact that more and more people are eating more vegetables and switching to meat and dairy alternatives for the sake of their health and the environment, and will continue to call dairy-free products ‘yogurt’ and ‘cheese’ anyway.”

Spot on. Fcuk them.

Shows how much green peace knows about vegetable production with that statement - zilch. Vegetable production is the most intensive and harmful to biodiversity and the environment of any type of farming. Go take a trip out around North County Dublin and have a look how your vegetables are produced. They don't grow on trees in fields of butterflies and wild flowers.

NcdJd · 23-10-2020 8:35pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Yeah but you don't see me in the farming forum do you. Most of the fruit and veg comes from up the road in North Dublin actually, 55% or something.

More like 55% comes from the plastic polytunnels of Spain with cheap Moroccan labour and the Netherlands.

But if you genuinely want to buy Irish fruit and veg Lispopple farms is a good place to go.

NcdJd · 23-10-2020 8:43pm

Guys outside here still planting garlic. They've got about 50 acres done. No wildlife, biodiversity soil is pummelled, lots of artifical fertiliser, multiple spray routines of herbicides and fungicides, large amounts of irrigation then in August at the critical bulb swell stage.

Fields next to it has beef cattle, no artificial fertiliser applications or spraying, old meadows and good hedgerows. Teaming with wildlife and biodiversity.

Do ya see the difference in what I've described ?

emaherx · 23-10-2020 8:49pm

NcdJd wrote: »

Guys outside here still planting garlic. They've got about 50 acres done. No wildlife, biodiversity soil is pummelled, lots of artifical fertiliser, multiple spray routines of herbicides and fungicides, large amounts of irrigation then in August at the critical bulb swell stage.

Fields next to it has beef cattle, no artificial fertiliser applications or spraying, old meadows and good hedgerows. Teaming with wildlife and biodiversity.

Do ya see the difference in what I've described ?

No....
They see cows bad.
Plants good.

It's amazing how the people who hate cows the most claim to be worried about cruelty towards them.

Anyway slow down the V and V server hasn't seen this kind of activity since impossible burger launch.

NcdJd · 23-10-2020 9:08pm

emaherx wrote: »

No....
They see cows bad.
Plants good.

It's amazing how the people who hate cows the most claim to be worried about cruelty towards them.

Anyway slow down the V and V server hasn't seen this kind of activity since impossible burger launch.

I've nothing against what people choose to eat or not eat. Personal choices and all of that. But to those who say plant based food production is any better than animal based food production on the environment they are either very misinformed or don't want to accept the reality.

Thelonious Monk · 23-10-2020 9:13pm

NcdJd wrote: »

More like 55% comes from the plastic polytunnels of Spain with cheap Moroccan labour and the Netherlands.

But if you genuinely want to buy Irish fruit and veg Lispopple farms is a good place to go.

No, 55% of Irish fruit and veg comes from Fingal. No one mentioned imported fruit and veg.

NcdJd · 23-10-2020 9:15pm

Here ya go, friend of mine tipped out a 12 tons of spuds because there is too much scab on them for the supermarkets. Quality control they call it, I call that food waste. Spuds are perfect for eating

Thelonious Monk · 23-10-2020 9:17pm

NcdJd wrote: »

I've nothing against what people choose to eat or not eat. Personal choices and all of that. But to those who say plant based food production is any better than animal based food production on the environment they are either very misinformed or don't want to accept the reality.

For me it's more about the amount of land given up worldwide to feed cattle. The amazon is being burned down for this, Ireland has very little biodiversity and nothing resembling a wilderness because of this. If we all ate less meat we wouldn't have to use as much land for food production.
Pointless engaging in this conversation with cattle farmers anyway, you're saviours of nature as far as you're concerned.

Thelonious Monk · 23-10-2020 9:17pm

NcdJd wrote: »

Here ya go, friend of mine tipped out a 12 tons of spuds because there is too much scab on them for the supermarkets. Quality control they call it, I call that food waste. Spuds are perfect for eating

What has that got to do with anything?!

NcdJd · 23-10-2020 9:20pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

What has that got to do with anything?!

No idea was just annoyed when he showed me it last week!

Thelonious Monk · 23-10-2020 9:21pm

NcdJd wrote: »

No idea was just annoyed when he showed me it last week!

I hope you took some home

JustJoe7240 · 23-10-2020 9:23pm

Gael23 wrote: »

Also if any dairy cow gives birth to a male calf it’s considered waste product and usually shot at birth

Yeah alright

emaherx · 23-10-2020 9:30pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

For me it's more about the amount of land given up worldwide to feed cattle. The amazon is being burned down for this, Ireland has very little biodiversity and nothing resembling a wilderness because of this. If we all ate less meat we wouldn't have to use as much land for food production.
Pointless engaging in this conversation with cattle farmers anyway, you're saviours of nature as far as you're concerned.

If you believe simply removing cattle from Ireland will increase biodiversity then you are mistaken and obviously don't understand biodiversity. The removal of grazing land would have a negative effect on many species that are currently dependent on farm land.

And this has already been seen in farmland across Europe in area's where livestock farming has declined.

NcdJd · 23-10-2020 9:31pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

For me it's more about the amount of land given up worldwide to feed cattle. The amazon is being burned down for this, Ireland has very little biodiversity and nothing resembling a wilderness because of this. If we all ate less meat we wouldn't have to use as much land for food production.
Pointless engaging in this conversation with cattle farmers anyway, you're saviours of nature as far as you're concerned.

I'm not a cattle farmer, I was involved in commercial vegetable production with my father growing up. I'm trying to do a bit on a part time basis as the job allows. It hasn't changed technique wise other than being on a bigger scale with less and less small producers. I just don't get some of this bitterness directed towards farming in this thread.

Thelonious Monk · 23-10-2020 9:35pm

emaherx wrote: »

If you believe simply removing cattle from Ireland will increase biodiversity then you are mistaken and obviously don't understand biodiversity. The removal of grazing land would have a negative effect on many species that are currently dependent on farm land.

And this has already been seen in farmland across Europe in area's where livestock farming has declined.

So if we give more land to livestock farming it would improve biodiversity?

NcdJd · 23-10-2020 9:40pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

So if we give more land to livestock farming it would improve biodiversity?

Thelonious, the fields out the back of me were always grassland. Cattle on them. We had barn owls, lapwings, curlews both native and migratory. Once the plough was put into the soil for veg production all that disappeared. 40 to 50 acres of swedes completely covered in crop protection mesh. Id rather see it back in grassland as at least there is some sort of biodiversity compared to what it is now which is lifeless.

emaherx · 23-10-2020 9:46pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

So if we give more land to livestock farming it would improve biodiversity?

And where do you think we are giving more? The opposite is actually happening.

Everything is about balance so we should certainly be encouraging more extensive farms and discourage more intensive farming.

But the logic might hurt your brain, biodiversity works better when a cow has more land. The more cattle you put in a smaller area the more it damages any biodiversity, but less cattle in a bigger area allows biodiversity flourish along side farming, but if you have so few cattle (or other grazing animals) that grass and weeds just grow, then fall over and rot into the ground then this is actually worse.

Thelonious Monk · 23-10-2020 9:52pm

emaherx wrote: »

And where do you think we are giving more? The opposite is actually happening.

Everything is about balance so we should certainly be encouraging more extensive farms and discourage more intensive farming.

But the logic might hurt your brain, biodiversity works better when a cow has more land. The more cattle you put in a smaller area the more it damages any biodiversity, but less cattle in a bigger area allows biodiversity flourish along side farming, but if you have so few cattle (or other grazing animals) that grass and weeds just grow, then fall over and rot into the ground then this is actually worse.

Do you think we would need to reduce the herd to farm cattle in this way or we could keep the 7 million? Surely we don't have enough land for this.

emaherx · 23-10-2020 10:02pm

Although we certainly need to replace more native forests, contrary to popular belief ireland was never completely forest but would naturally had a lot of grazing animals. We had some of the largest deer in the world which couldn't have survived in dense forest.

In parts of Europe where livestock farming declined it had a negative effect on many species of insects including some rare butterflies as well as other meadow animals and birds. There is a project to re-wild cattle in these areas https://rewildingeurope.com/rewilding-in-action/wildlife-comeback/tauros/

In your re-wilding plan for Ireland deer would probably be a better native option but as we are also missing our native predators we'd have a dilemma which might not suit many vegans. Do we introduce wolves to keep populations in check or a program of regular culling.

Thelonious Monk · 23-10-2020 10:07pm

But do you think we should reduce the herd if it's extensive farming and less intensive farming you're suggesting? Also the link above, they're putting some buffalos or whatever they are in to keep the equilibrium, not dumping millions of them there for food production, there's a difference.

emaherx · 23-10-2020 10:11pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Do you think we would need to reduce the herd to farm cattle in this way or we could keep the 7 million? Surely we don't have enough land for this.

Well I don't keep 7 million cattle and I run an extensive farm with a low stocking rate. Should also be pointed out the majority of farms in Ireland are fairly similar. I can't answer how many cattle Ireland should support as I haven't worked that out beyond my own farm.

If on the other hand you are looking for me to admit that some farms in my opinion are over stocked then yes absolutely I believe many farms have too many cattle. Will that make any difference to you as you seem to see all farms and farmers in the same light anyway?

Thelonious Monk · 23-10-2020 10:13pm

emaherx wrote: »

Well I don't keep 7 million cattle and I run an extensive farm with a low stocking rate. Should also be pointed out the majority of farms in Ireland are fairly similar. I can't answer how many cattle Ireland should support as I haven't worked that out beyond my own farm.

If on the other hand you are looking for me to admit that some farms in my opinion are over stocked then yes absolutely I believe many farms have too many cattle. Will that make any difference to you as you seem to see all farms and farmers in the same light anyway?

No but we wouldn't be able to produce all the meat and dairy that we do if everyone farmed the way you do. Any mention of reducing the herd is shut down immediately by the IFA. So the polluting intensive farming isn't going to go away unfortunately, regardless of what you're doing.

emaherx · 23-10-2020 10:15pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

But do you think we should reduce the herd if it's extensive farming and less intensive farming you're suggesting? Also the link above, they're putting some buffalos or whatever they are in to keep the equilibrium, not dumping millions of them there for food production, there's a difference.

If there is a lack of a natural predator that equilibrium will be short lived. It's never as simple as just dropping a few in. Somebody dropped a few animals off in Australia in the past with some fairly negative effects.

KennisWhale · 23-10-2020 10:16pm

gozunda wrote: »

You do now realise that the "industrial agriculture lobbyists" include those of the highly processed plant food lobby like Unilever yes?

Eating 'vegetables' doesn't magically save the environment btw. Some of the most intensive and highest input types of agriculture are intensive horticulture and arable production. But yeah fcuk them yeah?

You have a bit of a gymnasium going on inside your head that you love to jump around it seems. Lots of whataboutery.

Thelonious Monk · 23-10-2020 10:18pm

emaherx wrote: »

If there is a lack of a natural predator that equilibrium will be short lived. It's never as simple as just dropping a few in. Somebody dropped a few animals off in Australia in the past with some fairly negative effects.

They probably have wolves in that part of the world, although I don't know if they would prey on those massive things.

emaherx · 23-10-2020 10:18pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

No but we wouldn't be able to produce all the meat and dairy that we do if everyone farmed the way you do. Any mention of reducing the herd is shut down immediately by the IFA. So the polluting intensive farming isn't going to go away unfortunately, regardless of what you're doing.

You mention regularly about pollution from livestock. Do you know what area of Ireland has the poorest water quality due to agricultural run off? Do you think it might be a livestock area or a tillage area?

gozunda · 23-10-2020 10:19pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

For me it's more about the amount of land given up worldwide to feed cattle. The amazon is being burned down for this, Ireland has very little biodiversity and nothing resembling a wilderness because of this. If we all ate less meat we wouldn't have to use as much land for food production. Pointless engaging in this conversation with cattle farmers anyway, you're saviours of nature as far as you're concerned.

Excuse my French - but thats B U L L S H I T.
The vast majority of land used in Ireland for grazing is not suitable for either horticulture or arable farming.

Irelands biodiversity is fairly good considering that our country once supported 8.5 million people living off the land and a history which meant our forests were cleared as a result of colonisation to the point they covered less than 1% of the entire country

Today hedgerows alone amount to near 5% of total tree cover. With a further 11% now made up of commercial and non commercial forestry.

The Amazon is being cut down by the Brazilians - Who are using it for growing crops and for livestock most of which is primarily exported to China. And has fek sll squared to do with Irish farming.

Irelands agriculture is largely extensive in nature. But of course that doesn't suit the bs being pushed by some ....

Thelonious- it is possible may know something about music. You evidently know fek all about agriculture or the environment.

KennisWhale · 23-10-2020 10:19pm

eviltwin wrote: »

And coconut milk

Careful now Ted, don't want to offend the lovely dairy farmers.

RandomViewer · 23-10-2020 10:22pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

They probably have wolves in that part of the world, although I don't know if they would prey on those massive things.

Dingoes stole my Buffalo!!!

gozunda · 23-10-2020 10:25pm

KennisWhale wrote: »

You have a bit of a gymnasium going on inside your head that you love to jump around it seems. Lots of whataboutery.

Rather than throwing such ****e. You could try and engage with the discussion. I commented on your post. If that doesn't suit your evident bias - not much I can help with tbf.

emaherx · 23-10-2020 10:25pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

No but we wouldn't be able to produce all the meat and dairy that we do if everyone farmed the way you do. Any mention of reducing the herd is shut down immediately by the IFA. So the polluting intensive farming isn't going to go away unfortunately, regardless of what you're doing.

Really?
There was a scheme only last year to encourage farmers to reduce their herd size even approved if I remember correctly by the IFA.

Thelonious Monk · 23-10-2020 10:29pm

emaherx wrote: »

Really?
There was a scheme only last year to encourage farmers to reduce their herd size even approved if I remember correctly by the IFA.

IFA Says Maintaining The Size Of The National Herd "Absolutely Critical"

https://kfmradio.com/news/08102020-0837/listen-ifa-says-maintaining-size-national-herd-absolutely-critical

emaherx · 23-10-2020 10:36pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

IFA Says Maintaining The Size Of The National Herd "Absolutely Critical"

https://kfmradio.com/news/08102020-0837/listen-ifa-says-maintaining-size-national-herd-absolutely-critical

Farmers were paid to reduce stocking rate.

gozunda · 23-10-2020 10:41pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Do you think we would need to reduce the herd to farm cattle in this way or we could keep the 7 million? Surely we don't have enough land for this.

Thelonious- I really don't know if you are deliberately choosing to ignore the number of times many different posters have explained that issue to you. And yet you continue to push the exact same rubbish again and again?. Its hard to know if you are making things up or just having a laugh at this stage.

So let's do this again.

Over the last 40 years there has no huge increase in the national herd. As of December 2018 - CSO figures show the number of cattle of all types was approx 6.5 million - well below the number of cattle (7.6 million) in Ireland when we joined the EU in 1973. In 2019 the total number of cattle decreased by a further 33,800. If you wish to argue variations in these figures over time I'll be only to happy to do so.

So yes with a reduced number of animals - there is indeed enough land. Stocking rates are a function of the available which can be grazed. But I guess you wouldn't know that.

23-10-2020 10:43pm

gozunda wrote: »

Rather than throwing such ****e. You could try and engage with the discussion. I commented on your post. If that doesn't suit your evident bias - not much I can help with tbf.

Not throwing shíte ?

Like calling a poster a buil****ter and telling them they know **** all ?

That’s pretty hypocritical on your behalf there.

So I’ll just call you the hypocrite from now on seeing as you’re ok with calling people names.

You’ll be fine with that won’t you hypocrite ?

Or I could call you ‘whataboutery’ if you’d prefer ?

RandomViewer · 23-10-2020 10:46pm

gozunda wrote: »

Thelonious- I really don't know if you are deliberately choosing to ignore the number of times many different posters have explained that issue to you. And yet you continue to push the exact same rubbish again and again?. Its hard to know if you are making things up or just having a laugh at this stage.

So let's do this again.

Over the last 40 years there has no huge increase in the national herd. As of December 2018 - CSO figures show the number of cattle of all types was approx 6.5 million - well below the number of cattle (7.6 million) in Ireland when we joined the EU in 1973. In 2019 the total number of cattle decreased by a further 33,800. If you wish to argue variations in these figures over time I'll be only to happy to do so.

So yes with a reduced number of animals - there is indeed enough land. Stocking rates are a function of the available which can be grazed. But I guess you wouldn't know that.

Think he's scared of cows rather than any environmental hatred of farmers

Milk and Dairy

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