Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VI - Read OP for Mod Warnings

8k71ps · 21-10-2020 02:30PM

Idbatterim wrote: »

there is no appetite for an austerity budget for several reasons, try keeping the public onside with that, support already massively dwindling. This is like saying, oh lets go to the interest free furniture place :rolleyes: this situation is unprecedented in modern history. But there is making a bad situation a LOT worse, do I doubt we would have to do some borrowing? no probably not. But maxing out the credit card, nearly instantaneously, is idiocy! Its also not free money, I understand how rolling over debt works. This is the best laugh in this all, remember the last time boys and girls? massive government debt, the markets turned on us, cost of borrowing went from very little to unsustainable! Why? because of the amount of debt! "free money" :rolleyes:

so todays "free money" is tomorrows credit card interest rate, that isnt sustainable... cut, cut , cut, austerity ensues, because you no longer have the option to borrow...

I am literally arguing for large scale stimulus, in which contact tracing and health policies to restore trust in the economy are part of. I am in no way arguing for austerity. One can only take the view of the states balance sheet as some persons credit card if you ignore something incredibly vital - that the money supply is endogenous. most of the money stock is “broad money” or bank money, and the major driver of the expansion of this type of money is credit expansion in the form of bank loans etc, which there is an absolutely immense demand for currently, without which a huge array of bankruptcies will occur. Overall I'd agree that were far too debt laden but to start now is the equivalent of pushing people out of a moving car. Also we are not maxing out our credit card, infact we're not even close to it with the current budget.

TRANQUILLO · 21-10-2020 02:34PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

This is an outstanding post. Covers exactly the issues as they really are.

As I said myself a while ago - we live in a country that has stumbled through scandal after scandal, endless waste and incompetence, ass-covering, questionable decisions in everything from political actions to health, planning, tender awards etc etc

WHY would ANYONE think that the same people (because it IS mostly the same bunch) that have overseen all of the above, are somehow suddenly behaving more competently and coherently now?

The ONLY certainty here is that when this is all finally over, we can look forward to more expensive enquires and Tribunals about how this was all handled.. but as usual the only outcome will be another bill for the taxpayer

We can send all the sick covid kids to our new children's hospi..........oh wait. Oh dear. Embarrassment of a country and we should be ashamed as a society for what we let them away with.

Penfailed · 21-10-2020 02:35PM

Don't Chute! wrote: »

You and others when someone says “this is not the solution” always come out with “well what’s your solution”? like you think it wins the argument or something. It doesn’t, you don’t need to have a solution to understand the solution being used is the wrong one. It’s a non-argument.

I know. What I don't know is how we get out of this mess. That's why I ask the question. I'm not trying to win an argument (discussion)...this time.

bear1 · 21-10-2020 02:38PM

Idbatterim wrote: »

this isnt germany or spain, I reckon there will be near zero fines dished out. There is an app called Waze, that has pretty accurate near real time info of garda checkpoints etc...

checked it out the other day and it was bang on!

masks only indoor. if you have a valid excuse and there are several ones to go to galway, say the truth, if not, just have BS excuse on the tip of your tongue. If flexible with time of trip, you can be pretty sure, they wont be out in lashing rain!

Heading to my parents in loughrea for a few days. Couldn't give a balls about the level 5 but just want to be able to walk around without the mask. Where I am you have to have it on no matter what.

8k71ps · 21-10-2020 02:39PM

Idbatterim wrote: »

youd wonder, education is very important and raises a lot of issues for working parents. youd wonder how many are employed by meat factories here and if they would be better off being shut down and import?

I'd much rather a policy of "practical" zero covid or something similar to limit the total economic damage in the long run, yes. The costs of letting it rip amongst working class communities and meat factories (ie a significant portion of the population dies or suffers from health complications) would be in the long run worse than lockdown, not also counting the fact that consumer spending in such a situation would crash and more companies would become insolvent. I'm not in favour of lockdown because I think it's the best strategy, I'm in favour it because the government has completely failed to produce a workable alternative, just letting it spread not being an option.

8k71ps · 21-10-2020 02:45PM

patnor1011 wrote: »

Only one fail in your logic.
Money we borrow we must return.
We do not invest them and no stimulus is going on. We are pissing this money away.

There is a strong argument to letting bad businesses fail, however in this case it would be much better to have the level of debt even go over the magic 100% debt-to-gdp ratio than to have the alternative, ie mass redundancies and bankruptcies for practically no fault of the businesses themselves, which would also spur on the spread of the pandemic and lead to even largely profitable and useful companies failing. Ultimately of the goals of government should be to stop negative feedback loops like which occur from occuring.

SAMTALK · 21-10-2020 02:57PM

Idbatterim wrote: »

this is entirely the point! The right thing according to who? the right thing according to the government, which is blatantly a load of bull****?

The right thing to keep my elderly parents safe.

The right thing to try and keep economy going

So you say its bull**** so therefore it's bull**** ?

Are you saying you know more than the Government and NPHET

drunkmonkey · 21-10-2020 03:01PM

storker wrote: »

This reads like a lot of over-excited sweeping generalisation. Amazingly enough I'm also on the ground, and yes I see plenty of people not wearing masks properly, but the vast majority are, and most people wearing masks properly still beats nobody wearing masks at all. One dirtbag is not the world. Not advocating their use would be silly, to say the least. Banning them would be raise that silliness to the umpteenth power. I seriously hope you find a suitable sense-of-perspective donor soon.

Your claim about WFH reads reads more like wishful thinking and has been adequately answered several times in a number of threads.

Thanks for the "educationn" about recessions. I've actually done four recessions; three here and one in the UK. I'm far from blind to their effects.

It takes 100,000 people wearing them correctly for a week to stop 5 infections when it comes to the flu, all we need is 55 people using them incorrectly to undermine any benefit to mandating them. It's obvious they don't stop it, there being used as some magic forcefield instead of distancing which we do know works. Take you pick is what I'd say, if you can distance and your healthy there unnecessary. That's not just my opinion it's fact based science.

I didn't count being in the UK during the recession, this will be my 4th as well. Your old enough to remember mad cow, remember the Hysteria and how we were all going to be dead in 10yrs, you've been through enough to know this will pass and it's not as serious as we first thought, the Hysteria is just amplified by social media.

KennisWhale · 21-10-2020 03:03PM

https://m.facebook.com/100025096365968/posts/772408900272315/?extid=0&d=n

The pro-lockdown doomers now taking it upon themselves to force prohibition on society.

Penfailed · 21-10-2020 03:11PM

patnor1011 wrote: »

I see it is hard to understand.
The article itself is a mockery of our overreaction.

We are pretty much isolated from eu mainland can be generally considered back woods yet have longest lockdowns and harshest rules. Perhaps some mental compensation so we can jump and scream how much we did to stop this indiscriminate killer virus ripping through the population.

You're seeing something that's not there. The article is reporting facts. It's news. That's all. If you're feeling mocked by it, that's on you.

Penfailed · 21-10-2020 03:13PM

patnor1011 wrote: »

I am sorry for people with poor reading and understanding of what they read comprehension. To be lauded on RT website sure is a mark of honor.

It's news. It's their job to report news. It's not a mockery. You are lacking in comprehension by taking something out of it that isn't there.

Penfailed · 21-10-2020 03:14PM

sabat wrote: »

Correct. It is a conspiracy. An actual one, not a theory. The logic of a deliberate policy of economic destruction to facilitate the great reset is now the only one that fits. The officially stated government aims and the supposed reasoning behind them get picked apart in here day after day, figure by figure, contradiction by contradiction. This should not be possible for something supposedly based on science. Nothing about what they say or do tallies with reality; what was a fringe theory in March has not been disproved by events-it is only being further confirmed.

:facepalm:

Penfailed · 21-10-2020 03:28PM

Jorge Limited Maze wrote: »

There is absolutely no reason to believe there will be a bad recession never mind one even close to 2008, where are people getting this idea. Most sectors have not been impacted, house prices are still rising, loads of hiring still happening in many sectors, record levels of personal savings in the first 6 months of this year etc.

You cannot be serious. That's delusional thinking.

Lundstram · 21-10-2020 03:30PM

People being asked to do their own contact tracing now. Is it any wonder we have the strictest lockdown in Europe. Farcical stuff. 30 ICU beds added in 8 months is an insult. I don’t blame the government for this. The HSE is an organisation rotten to the core with red tape, pencil pushers on three figure salaries and unions sticking their noses in where its not needed.

The lack of accountability is scary. People in general are happy to forego their freedom and job for €350 per week.

Scary stuff.

FintanMcluskey · 21-10-2020 03:30PM

Penfailed wrote: »

:facepalm:

They are handing out fines like confetti to anyone they think is going to a house party.

I was thinking of going to a house party next year, but I’m afraid to think about it now in case I get fined.

It’s a police state.

SAMTALK · 21-10-2020 03:31PM

MOH wrote: »

You can keep saying it, doesn't make it true.

Whole point of the lockdown was to flatten the curve, avoid overwhelming the health system, buy time to allow the government and health authorities to put systems in place to help deal with it.

The people did their bit. The others did not.

The head of the HSE promised 100k per week testing in place by mid-May. That first happened in October.

Then there was the NPHET chair who said in July that they hoped to avoid further nationwide lockdowns because the improved test and trace infrastructure they had put in place would allow them to quickly identify clusters, trace close contacts, and isolate those clusters with localised restrictions. That never happened, we're back in the highest level of nationa lockdown, and we're now abandoning centralised tracing because the system can't cope.

NPHET accidentally admitted that they we're looking backwards to determine what was causing clusters, described it as an "academic exercise", and said they didn't have the resources to do so. This is despite the fact we were standing down contact tracing centres as the lockdown reopened because there wasn't enough to do, at a time when we could have gained valuable information about exactly how reopening was affecting virus spread.
We have zero reliable large-scale data about how clusters are being caused.
The hospitality industry has been destroyed despite being the source of 0.5% of clusters. Travel is 5 times that, schools 7 times.
Then again, those figures are too small to gain meaningful insight from since 70% of clusters have magically arisen at home.

They spent months developing a "Living with Covid" plan which was supposed to identify various set levels of restrictions, with clearly defined criteria for entering and leaving each level, so that everyone could now exactly what each level meant and what was required for them. Aside from the launch being a disaster after the minister for health went to work with symptoms, they haven't stopped editing the "plan" since so it's now totally useless and just a stream of consciousness of what's currently going through their heads.

The contact tracing app hasn't been mentioned in months. The app is still claiming 1.3 million regular users, but only 3500 people have uploaded that they're confirmed cases, resulting in the notification of 6500 people. Those figures make no sense as a whole. The whole app can only be seen as a failure.

And I'm saying all this as someone who's followed all the restrictions all the way through, and actually believes a lockdown is necessary in the current situation. But in despair because it's purely reactionary and will do nothing in the long run.

We should never have reached this point, and we're just going to be back here again by Feb/March. It's hard to blame people at this point for giving up, when it's blindingly obvious the government, HSE, and NPHET have failed miserably in their roles and will continue to do so.

Have you forgotten during the last lockdown the videos of beaches / woods etc, the BBQ's , the GAA finals celebrations.
Yes the majority of people stuck to the restrictions but no way was it anywhere near 100 %.

Of course they got things wrong, the testing , the contact tracing but the attitude is F*** this I have enough and now I'm not doing anymore.

Im no fan of NPHET or the Government but if we all just go about our business as we did in January where do you think this will leave us.

Penfailed · 21-10-2020 03:34PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Quite a few have stated that they don’t think there will be a recession at all. Despite the fact we are already in one.

Another poster stated it would just be a few quid extra in taxes.

I don’t think a lot of people do realise what is coming.

Just this morning I was reading about Ulster bank. Will have to keep an eye and see what develops there.

Fair enough. Anyone I chat to are worried about how the economy is going to fair out with all of this going on. Cheers for the more measured reply (clappy seals does my head in

).

Ashleigh1986 · 21-10-2020 03:35PM

It's been announced .... No golf clubs allowed to open from tomorrow .
This same government go on about positive thinking and we are all in this together .
Yet from tomorrow they are closing ....
Golf clubs / gyms / hairdressers / barbers .....
How in the name of God do they expect to bring the public with them when they continue to make stupid decisions ?
It really is " dads army " running the show .

SAMTALK · 21-10-2020 03:36PM

patnor1011 wrote: »

They are not mandatory outside. But seeing them outside they are a great identifier of people who succumbed to fear and propaganda. And when you see someone sitting alone in a car with a mask on it is a dead giveaway - that is someone who lost all the hope. (and sane mind in the process)

Totally unfair.

Who are you to judge people. Who are you to say you are right and they are wrong

macrocycle_24 · 21-10-2020 03:36PM

Lundstram wrote: »

People being asked to do their own contact tracing now. Is it any wonder we have the strictest lockdown in Europe. Farcical stuff. 30 ICU beds added in 8 months is an insult. I don’t blame the government for this. The HSE is an organisation rotten to the core with red tape, pencil pushers on three figure salaries and unions sticking their noses in where its not needed.

The lack of accountability is scary. People in general are happy to forego their freedom and job for €350 per week.

Scary stuff.

The lockdown is going to cost 2 billion for the 6 weeks, basically paying people to sit at home! Would the money not be more usefully spent on ICU capacity, contact tracing, helping with health measure compliance in business and in public?

Penfailed · 21-10-2020 03:37PM

Idbatterim wrote: »

Cant wait for reality to come knocking!

I don't understand this mentality. It's like you are gleefully waiting on a crippling recession just so you can gloat about it.

Penfailed · 21-10-2020 03:43PM

bear1 wrote: »

The fines they are preparing to hand out if you go further than 5km, are they 60e or 2.5k?

From what I can gather, it's €50 for facemask breaches, €200 for breaching the 5km limits and €1000 for house parties (for the first offence).

Penfailed · 21-10-2020 03:50PM

bear1 wrote: »

So basically, depends
Just flying in next week and driving to Galway so don't want to risk a fine because I dared enter the country.
Plus, are masks mandatory while in public places i.e. walking the street or only when in indoor public areas?

Re: Masks - only in indoor public places...for now.

21-10-2020 03:58PM

Penfailed wrote: »

Re: Masks - only in indoor public places...for now.

No, there will be fines for groups larger than 12 not wearing masks outdoors also, this I would think is directly aimed at idiot anti-mask/Gemma fan club members etc.

KennisWhale · 21-10-2020 04:06PM

Jorge Limited Maze wrote: »

No, there will be fines for groups larger than 12 not wearing masks outdoors also, this I would think is directly aimed at idiot anti-mask/Gemma fan club members etc.

Traveller funerals?

the kelt · 21-10-2020 04:09PM

SAMTALK wrote: »

Have you forgotten during the last lockdown the videos of beaches / woods etc, the BBQ's , the GAA finals celebrations.
Yes the majority of people stuck to the restrictions but no way was it anywhere near 100 %.

Of course they got things wrong, the testing , the contact tracing but the attitude is F*** this I have enough and now I'm not doing anymore.

Im no fan of NPHET or the Government but if we all just go about our business as we did in January where do you think this will leave us.

But its never expected to be 100%

I can pretty much guarantee the buy in will be less this time around

BPKS · 21-10-2020 04:12PM

Maybe if the HSE had a proper track and trace system we wouldn't have the rates we have and wouldn't be going into shutdown again.

Its amazing how we are letting the HSE off the hook given the track record they have in making an absolute total and utter sh1tshow of running their organisation.

These are the people who are ultimately making the decisions that are ruining businesses all over the country and they cant arrange a tracing system after 8 months of notice.

Rrrrrr2 · 21-10-2020 04:13PM

Penfailed wrote: »

I don't understand this mentality. It's like you are gleefully waiting on a crippling recession just so you can gloat about it.

Yea the bury your head in the sand approach is much better

macrocycle_24 · 21-10-2020 04:21PM

BPKS wrote: »

Maybe if the HSE had a proper track and trace system we wouldn't have the rates we have and wouldn't be going into shutdown again.

Its amazing how we are letting the HSE off the hook given the track record they have in making an absolute total and utter sh1tshow of running their organisation.

These are the people who are ultimately making the decisions that are ruining businesses all over the country and they cant arrange a tracing system after 8 months of notice.

This lockdown is the ultimate lazy option, toss all responsibility onto Joe Public.
As quoted above, HSE get off the hook!

Why are NEPHET allowed to run the show, surely this lack of contact tracing shows that an emergency planning group would be better at organising what we need to deal with the problem.

Rrrrrr2 · 21-10-2020 04:25PM

macrocycle_24 wrote: »

This lockdown is the ultimate lazy option, toss all responsibility onto Joe Public.
As quoted above, HSE get off the hook!

Why are NEPHET allowed to run the show, surely this lack of contact tracing shows that an emergency planning group would be better at organising what we need to deal with the problem.

It’s basically the public service and professional class once again dumping down on the working class and small business. Using them as an easy scapegoat. I’ve never seen such a wedge being driven in Irish society- the next few weeks are going to be interesting in terms of push back which is going to be massive

Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VI - **Read OP for Mod Warnings**

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Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VI - Read OP for Mod Warnings