Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VI - **Read OP for Mod Warnings**

Don't Chute!

Jorge Limited Maze wrote: »

Hopefully the guards will have them all shut before lunch and slapped with a large fine, they are not above the law which is there to protect people from the virus. Astounding arrogance.

Also anyone attending said gym would also be liable to fines.

For a guy who has admitted to drink driving you are absolutely obsessed with law and order.

Penfailed

robfowler78 wrote: »

So when you hear big numbers like 1500 cases we all panic.

Do we? No panic here.

robfowler78 wrote: »

Its still dangerous and still can overwhelem hospitals but total lockdown is not the answer

So, what is the answer?

average_runner

growleaves wrote: »

Graduates facing chronic unemployment from 2008-2012 would be instances of people having issues sans debt.

In any case no one can afford to borrow money if the economy is going to grind to a halt every couple of years. Or, at the moment, every couple of months.

After every boom the economy will enter a recession.Most grads will go through a recession and come out the other side.


I went through it in 2000's when IT bubbled burst, didn't have a permanent job for a year but still pulled through. There is ways and builds character.


I learnt more from that recession than any boom.

SusieBlue

We’ve been set up to fail, we’ll never get the R number down to 0.5 in six weeks like Tony wants. It was barely that low during the summer after 4 months of total lockdown and less than 5 cases a day.

I laughed during the summer at the petitions to have Christmas cancelled by wound up curtain twitchers, I never thought the government would be the ones to actually do it.
The numbers have decreased very little in Dublin over the last few weeks and I expect to see a similar trend after the national lockdown.
This will make people realise that they simply do not work.
We are going to be back in exactly the same position in February with even more unemployment after enduring a horrible Christmas.
The future looks dire but as much as I oppose this lockdown I feel it’ll be what we need to wake everyone up to the ridiculousness of these restrictions and how unsustainable it all is.
As was said before, we are burning down the whole village to kill a spider.

Penfailed

growleaves wrote: »

Yes I know. Governments are following the same policies the world over.

In the case of the 27 EU countries they have been highly co-ordinated since the 1990s. It isn't a 'conspiracy', its just their policy to act in concert to a considerable extent.

Yet, if you were reading this thread, you'd think we were on our own. If Covid hadn't reached our shores, we'd still have future financial problems due to global economies. Just as it was in '08.

Penfailed

bloopy wrote: »

Online nobody gave a **** about the hospitals until the deaths failed to materialise.

They haven't materialised for months. You saw the change over a couple of days...?

ThunbergsAreGo

SusieBlue wrote: »

We’ve been set up to fail, we’ll never get the R number down to 0.5 in six weeks like Tony wants. It was barely that low during the summer after 4 months of total lockdown and less than 5 cases a day.

I laughed during the summer at the petitions to have Christmas cancelled by wound up curtain twitchers, I never thought the government would be the ones to actually do it.
The numbers have decreased very little in Dublin over the last few weeks and I expect to see a similar trend after the national lockdown.
This will make people realise that they simply do not work.
We are going to be back in exactly the same position in February with even more unemployment after enduring a horrible Christmas.
The future looks dire but as much as I oppose this lockdown I feel it’ll be what we need to wake everyone up to the ridiculousness of these restrictions and how unsustainable it all is.
As was said before, we are burning down the whole village to kill a spider.

I dont feel dissimilar but feel this 6 weeks be more decisive as either

• Numbers come down, we open up for a while and enjoy December (in waht way we can) - We have then proven shorter lockdown do "work" to an extent
  
• It fails to bring the R number under control, deaths spiral and everyone understands that we are in serious trouble
  
• Cases stay high, deaths stay low and the dissent against the lockdown strategy increases
  

robfowler78

Penfailed wrote: »

Do we? No panic here.



So, what is the answer?

Didn't say you panicked I said population in general and if you think they don't well then that's your opinion. But we seem to be flying through those levels pretty quickly what happened to not knowing if levels are working by giving it two weeks at least? We are barely given them 5 days.

Captain_Crash

Penfailed wrote: »

Do you think that the government are blindly following inaccurate predictions? Surely if people on here are doing it, they've also done it? Don't you think that they have much more information to hand than any of us?

I’ll give an honest answer, I do yes! I think they are under pressure to do the right thing (understandably) and are following advice provided by the people they put in place to advise them. After what happened two weeks ago they didn’t have the fight for another media blowout and went with it!

I’ll caveat this with the following, I don’t think it’s any surprise or coincidence that this has escalated since TH came back. We knew of his arrogance and brass neck before all this and I think his influence is probably quite intimidating in meeting settings making it very difficult to go against what he says.

Let’s not forget he was asked to resign not once but twice after cervical check became known and didn’t.... so I don’t think there is any argument as to his professional nature.

bloopy

Penfailed wrote: »

They haven't materialised for months. You saw the change over a couple of days...?

You hysterical idiots were screaming about the "next two weeks, the next two weeks" up until the start of October. When the deaths did not rise correspondingly with the large rise in cases, ye shifted over to the "what about the hospitals" line.
This happened here, reddit, twitter and the other platform over the space of a few days.

Penfailed

robfowler78 wrote: »

Didn't say you panicked I said population in general and if you think they don't well then that's your opinion. But we seem to be flying through those levels pretty quickly what happened to not knowing if levels are working by giving it two weeks at least? We are barely given them 5 days.

Agreed. What's the answer though? Personally, I've no idea how they're/we're getting out of this.

Penfailed

bloopy wrote: »

You hysterical idiots were screaming about the "next two weeks, the next two weeks" up until the start of October. When the deaths did not rise correspondingly with the large rise in cases, ye shifted over to the "what about the hospitals" line.
This happened here, reddit, twitter and the other platform over the space of a few days.

I'll take your word for it I don't do reddit or (southern) Irish Twitter or 'other platform' so I wasn't aware of it. To be fair, the cases didn't rise dramatically until very recently.

SAMTALK

bloopy wrote: »

Online nobody gave a **** about the hospitals until the deaths failed to materialise.

I saw plenty online about overload on hospitals since this all began

Do people seriously think this is all made up to control people / annoy people / damage the economy etc ?

Do people really think the government don't know what this will do to the economy ?

Yes they got things wrong and the thought of another 6 weeks is so depressing but this idea that government are trying to control us is getting ridiculous

Idbatterim

Very good post susieblue. Politician characterists are exatly the opposite of what you need during a crisis. Lets be honest, it was clear as day, that it would be a ****show here woth covid. The same fools in government, in hse etc, responsible fpr all the failure, now dealing with covid19!

I also think you have to blame the population to an extent, actually buying into the crap that was being spouted from spoofers and taking it hook line and sinker. Some are waking up to it now? I hope this finishes political careers. Varadkars in particular...

robfowler78

Penfailed wrote: »

Agreed. What's the answer though? Personally, I've no idea how they're/we're getting out of this.

I think we have a conflict which is we have a pendemic which people say is once in a generation but we cant except deaths no matter how old or sick. This will carry on until we get a vaccine with a huge success rate or it will be lockdown, open rinse repeat. I don't advocate herd immunity or letting people die but lockdowns with 1000 cases and less then 1 death a day is not working... I think if by the summer we are still in this situation a new strategy is needed.

Penfailed

robfowler78 wrote: »

I think if by the summer we are still in this situation a new strategy is needed.

Completely agree. I'd argue that we shouldn't have to wait until the summer though. What I can't argue for or against, is what form that new strategy should take.

SAMTALK

SusieBlue wrote: »

We’ve been set up to fail, we’ll never get the R number down to 0.5 in six weeks like Tony wants. It was barely that low during the summer after 4 months of total lockdown and less than 5 cases a day.

I laughed during the summer at the petitions to have Christmas cancelled by wound up curtain twitchers, I never thought the government would be the ones to actually do it.
The numbers have decreased very little in Dublin over the last few weeks and I expect to see a similar trend after the national lockdown.
This will make people realise that they simply do not work.
We are going to be back in exactly the same position in February with even more unemployment after enduring a horrible Christmas.
The future looks dire but as much as I oppose this lockdown I feel it’ll be what we need to wake everyone up to the ridiculousness of these restrictions and how unsustainable it all is.
As was said before, we are burning down the whole village to kill a spider.

What do you think they should do ?

I'm not being smart with you , it's a genuine question

The reason the number has decreased very little is down to the fact that people are tired of "playing house" and want to play a different game now

I keep saying it,, it's not the Government or NPHET who is causing the increase in cases but US

Don't Chute!

Don't Chute! wrote: »

For a guy who has admitted to drink driving you are absolutely obsessed with law and order.

No law against drink driving under the limit

robfowler78

Penfailed wrote: »

Completely agree. I'd argue that we shouldn't have to wait until the summer though. What I can't argue for or against, is what form that new strategy should take.

Its a very tough decision to make I wouldn't like to be in the position its almost lose lose but then I'm not and never have run for government these people have and its up to them. Also Tony holohan was a disaster for the Cervical cancer scandal and should no way be in charge for this. In any other organisation he would have lost his job this is like a promotion for him. What can't happen is the constant opening and closing of business with restrictions which make it almost impossible to trade that's for sure.

One of our big problems is we never fully opened up as in bars we're shut and we had so many restrictions on things compared to other places. Also they kind of led people to believe that we will be opening up more for Xmas when we all know it will be level 3 stuff which is still very restrictive. Messaging is a over the ace that's why people won't by in fully. They did in the beginning but it harder now that the message is so up and down.

SusieBlue

SusieBlue wrote: »

This will make people realise that they simply do not work.

How people keep saying this absolute total and very easily disproven lie is beyond me.

The last lockdown was very successful and worked very well or are you denying the massive reduction in virus cases, virus spread and deaths that were achieved? We came out of it too soon though but that's a different argument.

sabat

SAMTALK wrote: »

Do people seriously think this is all made up to control people / annoy people / damage the economy etc ?

Yes. There are no other logical explanations at this point.

"When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

Idbatterim

I also think the case rises, is people waking up to, the collossal dfferent costs that covid comes up and for what? To stop zero or one death some days? Im sorry, if it was fifty a day etc, youd probanly have much of the population acting different. But their actions, are simply a reflection of the reality we now of the virus. It isnt back in march... was in the shop the other, people on top of me at the checkouts, moreso than they would have been pre pandemic!

ShyMets

Jorge Limited Maze wrote: »

No law against drink driving under the limit

For the last number of weeks there was no law stopping people crossing county boundaries for what every reason they liked. But a bit like drinking and driving, when within the limit, they were asked not to do it.

Captain_Crash

SAMTALK wrote: »

What do you think they should do ?

If I were in charge, I’d keep NPHET, reduce them to an advisory role only! As on, no media briefing from them, no interviews with radio or print and remove the mandate to make recommendations... they merely provide data and no more. I would also reduce the size of the group and include some dissenting voices and data scientists.

I would also move away from case numbers and look at hospital capacity and the impact of people “because of” covid and not “with”.

With regards to levels, I would remove the living with plan as it clearly doesn’t work and allow business to open based on what steps they can take to reduce spread and not target individual industries....

with regards to any restrictions or laws, I would accept advice from several sources including data against the proposal and data supporting it! All data used is to be verifiable!

SusieBlue

Jorge Limited Maze wrote: »

How people keep saying this absolute total and very easily disproven lie is beyond me.

The last lockdown was very successful and worked very well or are you denying the massive reduction in virus cases, virus spread and deaths that were achieved? We came out of it too soon though but that's a different argument.

It worked for as long as the lockdown lasted, then it stopped working.
As soon as we began lifting restrictions the cases rose again too.
The only way for them to ‘work’ long term would be if we stay in full lockdown indefinitely until there is a vaccine, we would never be able to come out of it, which isn’t realistic or sustainable. Therefore they do not work as a long term solution.
Lockdowns suppress the virus and delay the inevitable, they don’t cure it.
They are a complete and total waste of time.
Getting the cases down just to watch them go back up again, that isn’t living with the virus at all.

facehugger99

SusieBlue wrote: »

We’ve been set up to fail, we’ll never get the R number down to 0.5 in six weeks like Tony wants. It was barely that low during the summer after 4 months of total lockdown and less than 5 cases a day.

I laughed during the summer at the petitions to have Christmas cancelled by wound up curtain twitchers, I never thought the government would be the ones to actually do it.
The numbers have decreased very little in Dublin over the last few weeks and I expect to see a similar trend after the national lockdown.
This will make people realise that they simply do not work.
We are going to be back in exactly the same position in February with even more unemployment after enduring a horrible Christmas.
The future looks dire but as much as I oppose this lockdown I feel it’ll be what we need to wake everyone up to the ridiculousness of these restrictions and how unsustainable it all is.
As was said before, we are burning down the whole village to kill a spider.

I think for a lot of people, that will only come with the tax hikes and cuts to services that are on the way.

The Government are borrowing 10's of billions to shield people from the reality of the consequences of their actions. This is completely unsustainable and will be a serious drag on our future economic prospects in the coming years. A nation's heath is directly related to the available monies to fund services and we'll have fcuk all cash - don't expect Dr Tony to read out a list of those who died from preventable causes dues to lack of funding, at 6pm every night.

By the time the penny starts to drop with most people, it'll be far to late to adjust course - the damage will have already been done. The clappy-seals braying for lockdowns will be the first ones to start moaning when they see the tax-deductions on their paychecks.

robfowler78

Captain_Crash wrote: »

If I were in charge, I’d keep NPHET, reduce them to an advisory role only! As on, no media briefing from them, no interviews with radio or print and remove the mandate to make recommendations... they merely provide data and no more. I would also reduce the size of the group and include some dissenting voices and data scientists.

I would also move away from case numbers and look at hospital capacity and the impact of people “because of” covid and not “with”.

With regards to levels, I would remove the living with plan as it clearly doesn’t work and allow business to open based on what steps they can take to reduce spread and not target individual industries....

with regards to any restrictions or laws, I would accept advice from several sources including data against the proposal and data supporting it! All data used is to be verifiable!

This is the most sensible plan welldone.

SAMTALK

Captain_Crash wrote: »

If I were in charge, I’d keep NPHET, reduce them to an advisory role only! As on, no media briefing from them, no interviews with radio or print and remove the mandate to make recommendations... they merely provide data and no more. I would also reduce the size of the group and include some dissenting voices and data scientists.

I would also move away from case numbers and look at hospital capacity and the impact of people “because of” covid and not “with”.

With regards to levels, I would remove the living with plan as it clearly doesn’t work and allow business to open based on what steps they can take to reduce spread and not target individual industries....

with regards to any restrictions or laws, I would accept advice from several sources including data against the proposal and data supporting it! All data used is to be verifiable!

Can't argue about NPHET as advisory group. Include dissenting voices ? So we just bring someone in to argue points ?
The business plan is the problem one in that we saw it with the pubs that can serve foods . All of a sudden my local can put up a plate of food in front of me for 9€ even though they have never served food before.

Yes certain business being closed baffle me but I'm sure there has to a reason for this.

So we set up committees to argue points. Do you not thing when all these meetings are being held there are some who are against proposals and some for

If all you suggest is done do you see this controlling the numbers ?

I personally think you can have as many committees as you like but if people don't do their bit it is a waste of time.

Back in May/June people had the hands wore off themselves with sanatizer, kept well back from people and now it seems like most people have forgotten the basics again

you can't get everyone to sing off the same hymn sheet and this will cause problems for a long time yet

Penfailed

sabat wrote: »

Yes. There are no other logical explanations at this point.

"When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

Conspiracy thread thataway >>>

SAMTALK

facehugger99 wrote: »

I think for a lot of people, that will only come with the tax hikes and cuts to services that are on the way.

The Government are borrowing 10's of billions to shield people from the reality of the consequences of their actions. This is completely unsustainable and will be a serious drag on our future economic prospects in the coming years. A nation's heath is directly related to the available monies to fund services and we'll have fcuk all cash - don't expect Dr Tony to read out a list of those who died from preventable causes dues to lack of funding, at 6pm every night.

By the time the penny starts to drop with most people, it'll be far to late to adjust course - the damage will have already been done. The clappy-seals braying for lockdowns will be the first ones to start moaning when they see the tax-deductions on their paychecks.

This makes me so mad !


I don't want a lockdown, I'm sick of the restrictions. I want to see my family and friends

I am not a clappy - seal braying for lockdown.

You make it sound like anyone who doesnt see it from your point of view is a bit dim .

You do realise that most people are trying to do the right thing. The burden of trying to keep everyone safe and the burden of trying to keep the economy going. The burden of trying to keep your job and a roof over your head whilst also trying to do the right thing morally.
It's not a case of pick one side over the other