Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VI - **Read OP for Mod Warnings**

Gael23

https://www.newstalk.com/news/ireland-lockdown-february-christmas-1093403?fbclid=IwAR1_Xy-4XerRzEcsXei9AIjIKDkAVK3nQMah7kChnGHZRGqL1WmdiM4NaVI

FintanMcluskey

SAMTALK wrote: »

I saw plenty online about overload on hospitals since this all began

Do people seriously think this is all made up to control people / annoy people / damage the economy etc ?

Do people really think the government don't know what this will do to the economy ?

Yes they got things wrong and the thought of another 6 weeks is so depressing but this idea that government are trying to control us is getting ridiculous

There is no great conspiracy about control.

It’s ineptitude of those in government multiplied by social media in a PC driven world, where in recent years in the 1st world, good time’s have formed weak men.

The snowball gathered momentum in March and it can’t be stopped, even though the monster we are dealing with is akin to a mouse.

It’s been the worst excess death season in a long time in some countries, possibly caused by advances in treatments in recent years keeping people alive that something else would normally have died from other causes, thus lots of old vulnerable people were in the firing line.

The way out is a vaccine, hopefully they approve something in the next few weeks, doesn’t need to do anything only not kill us from something else, and it may be a ticket back to normality

storker

Penfailed wrote: »

Completely agree. I'd argue that we shouldn't have to wait until the summer though. What I can't argue for or against, is what form that new strategy should take.

I'm thinking it should be a strategy that involves pinpointing where the infections are happening and looking for patterns or clusters, and then either curtailing those activities that are spreading infection, or (preferably) sanctioning those establishments where spreading is happening and leave the ones getting it right alone.

My family has been patronising hairdressers, beauty salons (not me, I'm gorgeous enough), the local gym, cafes, restaurants and bookshops and without exception they have been stringent in the measures they've put in place to protect staff and customers. A 6-week level-5 lockdown seems like a kick in the teeth to those businesses that have been doing a good job.

I'm in favour of restrictions where they help, and masks too, WFH no question, but I think this lockdown is too blunt an instrument and to my mind represents a failure to implement contact tracing properly, which I suspect is due to feet having been taking off the gas during the summer because of the Dail break and falling infection figures promoting a false sense of security.

Captain_Crash

SAMTALK wrote: »

Can't argue about NPHET as advisory group. Include dissenting voices ? So we just bring someone in to argue points ?
The business plan is the problem one in that we saw it with the pubs that can serve foods . All of a sudden my local can put up a plate of food in front of me for 9€ even though they have never served food before.

Yes certain business being closed baffle me but I'm sure there has to a reason for this.

So we set up committees to argue points. Do you not thing when all these meetings are being held there are some who are against proposals and some for

If all you suggest is done do you see this controlling the numbers ?

I personally think you can have as many committees as you like but if people don't do their bit it is a waste of time.

Back in May/June people had the hands wore off themselves with sanatizer, kept well back from people and now it seems like most people have forgotten the basics again

you can't get everyone to sing off the same hymn sheet and this will cause problems for a long time yet

At the moment, all they have is people agreeing with eachother and back slapping, a classic case of group think. Dissenting voices are common in scenarios such as this, some would say necessary! Even our own Supreme Court publishes dissenting opinions when issuing judgement. It’s not about arguing it’s about balanced discussion and proposals!

KennisWhale

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/oct/21/covid-vaccine-immunisation-protection

The tentacles of industry starting to creep into the media as we allegedly get closer to a vaccine. This article, from a Chatham House fellow director, is arguing for vaccines even among the young.

Chatham House takes funding from many sources including those that have a financial interest in a vaccine programme. This is not to say anything about the vaccine's effectiveness or to suspect some underhand individual espionage via the vaccine, but just to highlight the wheels which turn out articles such as these are oiled by financial interests in what they are advocating for.

Vaccines are probably the most powerful public health intervention available to us. But unless their benefits are communicated with realism, confidence in all recommendations will be put at risk.

This is absolutely incorrect. The most powerful public health intervention is education and policies which encourage individuals to look after themselves (i.e. eat more fruit, veg and wholefoods; reduce processed crap; exercise etc.).

Don't Chute!

Penfailed wrote: »

Do we? No panic here.



So, what is the answer?

You and others when someone says “this is not the solution” always come out with “well what’s your solution”? like you think it wins the argument or something. It doesn’t, you don’t need to have a solution to understand the solution being used is the wrong one. It’s a non-argument.

Don't Chute!

Jorge Limited Maze wrote: »

No law against drink driving under the limit

No law against house parties either as far as I know.

drunkmonkey

storker wrote: »

I'm in favour of restrictions where they help, and masks too, WFH no question,

Restrictions without evidence do not help, i'm ready to shoot people at this stage i've turned from pro lockdown to this is complete madness and there is 0 evidence as to the effectiveness of any restriction besides total lockdown, the levels didn't work, the masks didn't work, closing the pubs didn't work. Nothing is working, the restrictions are just wrecking the fecking heads off people.

Anyone in favour of masks has no idea what's happening on the ground, A dirt bag (50's male, well educated) just came into me with his mask the wrong way round and the inside white bit facing out that was disgustingly dirty, there is no way masks are having any effect on the transmission with that kind of carry on and it's rampant. I want them banned for general use, people are using them to be compliant and nothing more, they are not using them as intended. The medical profession are starting to kick back about them, use them wrong and it's a worse problem than not wearing them, fact!

WFH will turn into being unemployed from home, people are blind to what's happening, they will be replaced by cheaper workers from around the globe or their jobs just done away with it. There's a recession coming on that will make 2008 look like a walk in the park.

I've done 2 recessions, I don't want a third as we'll be back to the bullet or the boat.

Don't Chute!

KennisWhale wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/oct/21/covid-vaccine-immunisation-protection

The tentacles of industry starting to creep into the media as we allegedly get closer to a vaccine. This article, from a Chatham House fellow director, is arguing for vaccines even among the young.

Chatham House takes funding from many sources including those that have a financial interest in a vaccine programme. This is not to say anything about the vaccine's effectiveness or to suspect some underhand individual espionage via the vaccine, but just to highlight the wheels which turn out articles such as these are oiled by financial interests in what they are advocating for.



This is absolutely incorrect. The most powerful public health intervention is education and policies which encourage individuals to look after themselves (i.e. eat more fruit, veg and wholefoods; reduce processed crap; exercise etc.).

Translation: “I’m not an anti-vaxxer, but.............”

CruelSummer

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-lung-cancer-deaths-during-pandemic-may-have-been-misdiagnosed-as-covid-12110063

Good article and information.

patnor1011

Allinall wrote: »

Where's the mockery in the article?

At no point is there even a hint of an opinion offered.

Micheal Martin himself said we were introducing one of the harshest set of restrictions in Europe.

I see it is hard to understand.
The article itself is a mockery of our overreaction.

We are pretty much isolated from eu mainland can be generally considered back woods yet have longest lockdowns and harshest rules. Perhaps some mental compensation so we can jump and scream how much we did to stop this indiscriminate killer virus ripping through the population.

SAMTALK

Captain_Crash wrote: »

At the moment, all they have is people agreeing with eachother and back slapping, a classic case of group think. Dissenting voices are common in scenarios such as this, some would say necessary! Even our own Supreme Court publishes dissenting opinions when issuing judgement. It’s not about arguing it’s about balanced discussion and proposals!

And do you know for a fact that this is not happening behind closed doors.

Just listening at lunchtime to the gym owner in Dublin who is refusing to close on the grounds that gyms are good for mental health.

Gaa games are good for mental health for kids / adults.
hairdressers are good for mental health for the woman who's only treat is a trip every week.
Pubs are good for mental health for people who like to socialise
Shops are good for mental health for those that like a days shopping

Where does it stop ?

patnor1011

Penfailed wrote: »

It's reporting the facts. I didn't read any mockery. I'm sorry for your paranoia.

I am sorry for people with poor reading and understanding of what they read comprehension. To be lauded on RT website sure is a mark of honor.

sabat

Penfailed wrote: »

Conspiracy thread thataway >>>

Correct. It is a conspiracy. An actual one, not a theory. The logic of a deliberate policy of economic destruction to facilitate the great reset is now the only one that fits. The officially stated government aims and the supposed reasoning behind them get picked apart in here day after day, figure by figure, contradiction by contradiction. This should not be possible for something supposedly based on science. Nothing about what they say or do tallies with reality; what was a fringe theory in March has not been disproved by events-it is only being further confirmed.

bloopy

Gael23 wrote: »

https://www.newstalk.com/news/ireland-lockdown-february-christmas-1093403?fbclid=IwAR1_Xy-4XerRzEcsXei9AIjIKDkAVK3nQMah7kChnGHZRGqL1WmdiM4NaVI

Professor Staines has long advocated for a zero-COVID approach in Ireland

There it is. The man is wedded to an idea which cannot and will not work. Zero covid has become an ideology and its proponents only push restrictions and lockdowns.
McConkey the other night was practically beaming from the Level 5 announcement.

Johnboy1951

The case for severe restrictions:
Preventing people from being in close contact with each other limits the transmission of Covid, depending on how successful those restrictions are.
The result of successful restrictions is that the new case numbers drop dramatically, and of course it follows that illness, hospitalisation and deaths from Covid will also drop.
So, yes this is all quite logical.

The main benefit of such restrictions is that our ridiculously bad health service can cope with the numbers attending hospital due to Covid illlness.
The other benefits of course include vulnerable people living longer as well as others not getting sick.

******

BUT, once those restrictions are lifted, or eased, the virus spreads as it did before with all those numbers rising again.

Would it not be as manageable from the health service point of view, as well as more acceptable from a societal and economic point of view, if we could allow the virus to spread under controlled conditions?
The numbers getting sick and needing hospital treatment could be managed by the health service and the patients would receive the best care possible.

The big question then would be how to implement this?

Maybe a semi permanent level of restrictions would work ....... at least until the important numbers dropped to near zero.

In addition, there should be medical advice provided to all with the aim to boost our individual immune system, which would help reduce the effect of Covid. This also would reduce the numbers requiring hospitalisation.

Would people buy into such a scheme.
I think probably - IF the aim was clearly stated.
Vulnerable persons would of course be warned that they should take extra precautions over and above those mandated for the general populous, in consultation with their medical advisors.

Once the virus has run its course through the population everything returns to normal pre-covid status.

The most important aspect would be businesses could remain open, while taking recommended precautions to reduce spread of the virus. The economy would not suffer greatly and people's mental and physical well being would not be a serious concern.

Large gatherings, such as attendance at sports fixtures or musical events etc. would need to be banned during the period, as the spread of the virus in such conditions could not be controlled.

That would be more like 'living with Covid' than the roller coaster restrictions we appear to be suffering.

In addition to medical advise, we the public need to be told all the figures reported, with comparison to previous (non-covid) time periods.

From my personal point of view, I get a lot more information from a few graphs I see from the likes of Ivor Cummins, than I do from the daily pronouncements from NPHET. Cummins's figures are a lot more meaningful IMO.

So, yes, I believe there are other options to managing the spread of this virus to that presently employed.
We cannot stop it spreading without complete lockdown.
That option is obviously not something any country can do for a long period (long period = time it takes to get a vaccine that works and is proven to work).

It is long past the time some alternative was considered, and that we, the citizens, were given ALL the information available.

Idbatterim

SAMTALK wrote: »

This makes me so mad !


I don't want a lockdown, I'm sick of the restrictions. I want to see my family and friends

I am not a clappy - seal braying for lockdown.

You make it sound like anyone who doesnt see it from your point of view is a bit dim .

You do realise that most people are trying to do the right thing. The burden of trying to keep everyone safe and the burden of trying to keep the economy going. The burden of trying to keep your job and a roof over your head whilst also trying to do the right thing morally.
It's not a case of pick one side over the other

this is entirely the point! The right thing according to who? the right thing according to the government, which is blatantly a load of bull****?

robfowler78

SAMTALK wrote: »

And do you know for a fact that this is not happening behind closed doors.

Just listening at lunchtime to the gym owner in Dublin who is refusing to close on the grounds that gyms are good for mental health.

Gaa games are good for mental health for kids / adults.
hairdressers are good for mental health for the woman who's only treat is a trip every week.
Pubs are good for mental health for people who like to socialise
Shops are good for mental health for those that like a days shopping

Where does it stop ?

Maybe the issue is we are told we are all in this together but the reality is we are not. Some areas have been hit much harder then others. Now they have gone a step further and are making allowances for some within those areas to operate and others not to.

Let's face it if we were to say we are all in this together and we are introducing a covid tax so people not effected would have to pay a share of their income to help support other people's until this is over we would soon have a change of attitude among alot of people.

MOH

SAMTALK wrote: »

I keep saying it,, it's not the Government or NPHET who is causing the increase in cases but US

You can keep saying it, doesn't make it true.

Whole point of the lockdown was to flatten the curve, avoid overwhelming the health system, buy time to allow the government and health authorities to put systems in place to help deal with it.

The people did their bit. The others did not.

The head of the HSE promised 100k per week testing in place by mid-May. That first happened in October.

Then there was the NPHET chair who said in July that they hoped to avoid further nationwide lockdowns because the improved test and trace infrastructure they had put in place would allow them to quickly identify clusters, trace close contacts, and isolate those clusters with localised restrictions. That never happened, we're back in the highest level of nationa lockdown, and we're now abandoning centralised tracing because the system can't cope.

NPHET accidentally admitted that they we're looking backwards to determine what was causing clusters, described it as an "academic exercise", and said they didn't have the resources to do so. This is despite the fact we were standing down contact tracing centres as the lockdown reopened because there wasn't enough to do, at a time when we could have gained valuable information about exactly how reopening was affecting virus spread.
We have zero reliable large-scale data about how clusters are being caused.
The hospitality industry has been destroyed despite being the source of 0.5% of clusters. Travel is 5 times that, schools 7 times.
Then again, those figures are too small to gain meaningful insight from since 70% of clusters have magically arisen at home.

They spent months developing a "Living with Covid" plan which was supposed to identify various set levels of restrictions, with clearly defined criteria for entering and leaving each level, so that everyone could now exactly what each level meant and what was required for them. Aside from the launch being a disaster after the minister for health went to work with symptoms, they haven't stopped editing the "plan" since so it's now totally useless and just a stream of consciousness of what's currently going through their heads.

The contact tracing app hasn't been mentioned in months. The app is still claiming 1.3 million regular users, but only 3500 people have uploaded that they're confirmed cases, resulting in the notification of 6500 people. Those figures make no sense as a whole. The whole app can only be seen as a failure.

And I'm saying all this as someone who's followed all the restrictions all the way through, and actually believes a lockdown is necessary in the current situation. But in despair because it's purely reactionary and will do nothing in the long run.

We should never have reached this point, and we're just going to be back here again by Feb/March. It's hard to blame people at this point for giving up, when it's blindingly obvious the government, HSE, and NPHET have failed miserably in their roles and will continue to do so.

SAMTALK

Idbatterim wrote: »

this is entirely the point! The right thing according to who? the right thing according to the government, which is blatantly a load of bull****?

According to you .

Just because you think it's a load of bull*** doesn't actually mean it's a load of bull***

So you suggest we all just ignore the restrictions and carry on ?

We all carried on since August and now cases have risen

Yes the government have got a lot wrong re beds, testing, contact tracing but
I'd imagine every country has got a lot wrong because this is all new

santana75

I dont know if this has already been asked but when the 6 weeks of lockdown are over, what level does the country default back to?

robfowler78

santana75 wrote: »

I dont know if this has already been asked but when the 6 weeks of lockdown are over, what level does the country default back to?

Hasn't been said publicly but been very widely hinted at level 3

santana75

santana75 wrote: »

I dont know if this has already been asked but when the 6 weeks of lockdown are over, what level does the country default back to?

Nobody really knows for sure. It will quite possibly just be extended for a further 3 weeks. Or maybe drop to level 3, which is still very restrictive.

Johnboy1951

I forgot to include a link in my previous post, to a short video from Ivor Cummins, which illustrates the graphs I referred to, so here it is .......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRu6Mgb49Uk

drunkmonkey

drunkmonkey wrote: »

WFH will turn into being unemployed from home, people are blind to what's happening, they will be replaced by cheaper workers from around the globe or their jobs just done away with it. There's a recession coming on that will make 2008 look like a walk in the park.
.

All total scaremongering and incorrect. There isn’t chance if a load of jobs being moved off shore. Most places that outsourced are now insourcing again. It doesn’t work they will want their workforce’s for the most part in first world counties where wages are high regardless. Stuff than can be outsourced already has been.

There is absolutely no reason to believe there will be a bad recession never mind one even close to 2008, where are people getting this idea. Most sectors have not been impacted, house prices are still rising, loads of hiring still happening in many sectors, record levels of personal savings in the first 6 months of this year etc.

There are sectors hit and badly so in many cases but the fact is they are paused, once anything opens the demand and money is there to spend in them again. This is nothing like a normal recession or like the 2008 one where there was no jobs, no demand even though places were open etc. People are losing the run of themselves with all this talk of “the worst recession ever” and “young people lives being destroyed” etc.

RoryMac

MOH wrote: »

You can keep saying it, doesn't make it true.

Whole point of the lockdown was to flatten the curve, avoid overwhelming the health system, buy time to allow the government and health authorities to put systems in place to help deal with it.

The people did their bit. The others did not.

The head of the HSE promised 100k per week testing in place by mid-May. That first happened in October.

Then there was the NPHET chair who said in July that they hoped to avoid further nationwide lockdowns because the improved test and trace infrastructure they had put in place would allow them to quickly identify clusters, trace close contacts, and isolate those clusters with localised restrictions. That never happened, we're back in the highest level of nationa lockdown, and we're now abandoning centralised tracing because the system can't cope.

NPHET accidentally admitted that they we're looking backwards to determine what was causing clusters, described it as an "academic exercise", and said they didn't have the resources to do so. This is despite the fact we were standing down contact tracing centres as the lockdown reopened because there wasn't enough to do, at a time when we could have gained valuable information about exactly how reopening was affecting virus spread.
We have zero reliable large-scale data about how clusters are being caused.
The hospitality industry has been destroyed despite being the source of 0.5% of clusters. Travel is 5 times that, schools 7 times.
Then again, those figures are too small to gain meaningful insight from since 70% of clusters have magically arisen at home.

They spent months developing a "Living with Covid" plan which was supposed to identify various set levels of restrictions, with clearly defined criteria for entering and leaving each level, so that everyone could now exactly what each level meant and what was required for them. Aside from the launch being a disaster after the minister for health went to work with symptoms, they haven't stopped editing the "plan" since so it's now totally useless and just a stream of consciousness of what's currently going through their heads.

The contact tracing app hasn't been mentioned in months. The app is still claiming 1.3 million regular users, but only 3500 people have uploaded that they're confirmed cases, resulting in the notification of 6500 people. Those figures make no sense as a whole. The whole app can only be seen as a failure.

And I'm saying all this as someone who's followed all the restrictions all the way through, and actually believes a lockdown is necessary in the current situation. But in despair because it's purely reactionary and will do nothing in the long run.

We should never have reached this point, and we're just going to be back here again by Feb/March. It's hard to blame people at this point for giving up, when it's blindingly obvious the government, HSE, and NPHET have failed miserably in their roles and will continue to do so.

Great post, I agree 100%.

The public did there bit in the first lockdown and were failed badly by NPHET & the Gov who sat on there hands and did nothing to prepare for the inevitable increase once restrictions were lifted.

Now we're going back into lockdown and again NPHET and the Gov have zero plans to improve the situation.

We bear the brunt of the pandemic while they do nothing

I have been registered to volunteer as contact tracer on HSE website since March. To this day they are saying there are no vacancies , they don’t need anyone!

My sister registered to volunteer in Kildare yesterday as a contact tracer, she got an email this morning saying they need nobody and there are no vacancies !!
Who the hell is running the show? Paul Reid should be fired !

drunkmonkey

Jorge Limited Maze wrote: »

All total scaremongering and incorrect. There isn’t chance if a load of jobs being moved off shore. Most places that outsourced are now insourcing again. It doesn’t work they will want their workforce’s for the most part in first world counties where wages are high regardless. Stuff than can be outsourced already has been.

head in the sand Nox, employers are already planning a cull. If your able to work from home your disposable.

Penfailed

facehugger99 wrote: »

I think for a lot of people, that will only come with the tax hikes and cuts to services that are on the way.

The Government are borrowing 10's of billions to shield people from the reality of the consequences of their actions. This is completely unsustainable and will be a serious drag on our future economic prospects in the coming years. A nation's heath is directly related to the available monies to fund services and we'll have fcuk all cash - don't expect Dr Tony to read out a list of those who died from preventable causes dues to lack of funding, at 6pm every night.

By the time the penny starts to drop with most people, it'll be far to late to adjust course - the damage will have already been done. The clappy-seals braying for lockdowns will be the first ones to start moaning when they see the tax-deductions on their paychecks.

I've asked this/said this numerous times on this thread...does everyone really think that people don't realise what is coming down the line financially? It's patently obvious, I'd have thought.

In terms of the plan, our finances will be absolutely crippled by late next year. So we need something before then.

Thankfully a vaccine will likely get the go ahead very soon. It won’t prevent Covid but it will likely change the narrative and stop the hysteria. That in itself will allow a return to normality.

Until then, we should be looking to increase hospital capacity and ICU capacity by any means. If we can borrow billions, lets spend it where it’s needed.

We should also be seriously advising the elderly to cocoon as much as possible. Give them 2 hours a day to shop on supermarkets were nobody else is allowed in. Encourage family and community to assist them with online shopping deliveries etc.

The rest of the country needs to get back to some level of normality soon.

I also predict that working from home is going to cause a mountain of issues. But I’ll leave that for another thread.