What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

Zookey123 · 17-10-2020 7:55pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Deflection overtime, and complete refusal to deal with my questions. I see no reason to continue with this. I've had enough with this type of posting 'style'.

I think we have been going in circles for a while now I agree that there is no real point in continuing. I will have to disagree about the deflection since you are still calling me out on that. I have answered every question you posed perhaps not to your satisfaction but that is not what deflecting is. Anyways I will say you have been civil unlike a lot of the other posters here so fair play!

breezy1985 · 17-10-2020 7:58pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Supposition on your part. Never mind that again nobody including that poster has said - he'll correct me if I'm incorrect on that - they are against the wider area of legal migration into this country. That includes genuine refugees and people who apply and are successful in securing work here.

Great we all agree then because I am against illegal immigration too. So we all agree successful asylum seekers, EU migrants and visa migrants are good and only asylum scammers are bad.

Thread closed

17-10-2020 8:01pm

^^^^^

Thread reopened.

Wibbs · 17-10-2020 8:04pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

I know you think you speak for all Irish tax payers

Nope, 'fraid not. Try again. Though it would be interesting to see a vote by the Irish on how much we spend and where and how we spend it.

but I am happy my money goes to foreign aid to help the truly destitute in this world rather than the skangers that have been wrecking my home town for my whole life. It's not to direct provision I look when I want to see chancers who don't pay any tax in this country.

So you look down on the local "skangers" but are happy to import the potential for more and extra skangerisms? And here's a crazy thought, unless the "skangers" you refer to aren't human like the rest of is then a similar investment into the social problems they face would be worthwhile rather than spending hundreds of millions per year on overseas aid. Often to places that don't seem to be showing much in the way of improvement since Trocaire boxes were first assembled in glassrooms.

As for infrastructure this country had a chance to build loads but we kept voting for Bertie and all we got was more private buildings higher insurance costs and higher banking charges while the rich got richer which is another reason I think picking on the asylum seekers as the problem is crap

Indeed we did, but again why import the problems of other multicultural nations clearly show? Does this oft daftness of the Irish voter magically fade away when we do? Nope. Never mind that in that at least the electorate have learned some lessons and improved somewhat, though more improvement is surely needed.

Zookey123 wrote: »

The comment I was referring to is " I think a lot on the Left live in a bubble and ignore all the socio- enconomic problems that come with multiculturalism so they can feel good about themselves ". Ignoring the glaring spelling errors, one of the three factors must apply for this type of critical thinking or am I wrong?

Lazy isn't within an asses roar, crazy, stupid? debatable. The other word he used "naive" could fit some. Though in that sentence he appears to be talking about the feel good factor for some. So yeah kinda wrong. He didn't say those words you put in his mouth, or you were being extremely inventive when you tried to. I stand by my original point.

breezy1985 · 17-10-2020 8:12pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Nope, 'fraid not. Try again. Though it would be interesting to see a vote by the Irish on how much we spend and where and how we spend it.

So you look down on the local "skangers" but are happy to import the potential for more and extra skangerisms? And here's a crazy thought, unless the "skangers" you refer to aren't human like the rest of is then a similar investment into the social problems they face would be worthwhile rather than spending hundreds of millions per year on overseas aid. Often to places that don't seem to be showing much in the way of improvement since Trocaire boxes were first assembled in glassrooms. Indeed we did, but again why import the problems of other multicultural nations clearly show? Does this oft daftness of the Irish voter magically fade away when we do? Nope. Never mind that in that at least the electorate have learned some lessons and improved somewhat, though more improvement is surely needed.

Lazy isn't within an asses roar, crazy, stupid? debatable. The other word he used "naive" could fit some. Though in that sentence he appears to be talking about the feel good factor for some. So yeah kinda wrong. He didn't say those words you put in his mouth, or you were being extremely inventive when you tried to. I stand by my original point.

Nope the skangers here get the same money and opportunities I got. Overseas aid help with famines and gives schools and doctors to kids never had them.

And we do get a vote on where the money goes it's called TDs and currently we don't have any alt right toerags because the Irish are mostly charitable and hold good people like Mary Robinson in high regard and had huge per capita personal donations even back when we were broke ourselves.

If and only if Ireland elects a Trump or Orban as Taoiseach will I accept your isolationist policy as the will of the people or as anything more than the rambling of a few who are miles off the majority in this country

breezy1985 · 17-10-2020 8:15pm

And on the social problems of the Irish we already spend an absolute fortune on it.

The reason I am against diverting the asylum money is because I don't think it will help one bit more

breezy1985 · 17-10-2020 8:23pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

Great we all agree then because I am against illegal immigration too. So we all agree successful asylum seekers, EU migrants and visa migrants are good and only asylum scammers are bad.

Thread closed

Btw Wibbs which part of this do you disagree with

Hamachi · 17-10-2020 8:27pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

Nope the skangers here get the same money and opportunities I got. Overseas aid help with famines and gives schools and doctors to kids never had them.

Regardless of your views on asylum seeking and immigration, can you stop referring to your fellow country men/women as ‘skangers’?

Not only is it incredibly disrespectful to them, it doesn’t paint you in a particularly positive light. Debate the merits / de-merits of multiculturalism without resorting to denigrating others.

breezy1985 · 17-10-2020 8:37pm

Hamachi wrote: »

Regardless of your views on asylum seeking and immigration, can you stop referring to your fellow country men/women as ‘skangers’?

Not only is it incredibly disrespectful to them, it doesn’t paint you in a particularly positive light. Debate the merits / de-merits of multiculturalism without resorting to denigrating others.

I grew up in the estates with them watched them wreck their own streets and the houses and cars of the neighborhood. I'll call the people who wrecked my estate and run around the streets of my city screaming and roaring what ever I want to call them. I also refuse to accept someone with your views as my judge and jury as to whether I am seen in a "positive light"

And no bleeding heart snowflake righty will tell me otherwise

Wibbs · 17-10-2020 8:38pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

Nope the skangers here get the same money and opportunities I got.

And what made you particularly special? Genuine question, because something made you better and made you acheive more than they did.

Overseas aid help with famines and gives schools and doctors to kids never had them.

And I have no problem in principle with that. I do have a problem with the amount and a problem with how and where and through whom its spent.

If and only if Ireland elects a Trump or Orban as Taoiseach will I accept your isolationist policy as the will of the people or as anything more than the rambling of a few who are miles off the majority in this country

No panicky stuff about a moron like trump needed, but of course you seem to assume someone questioning this politic must be "alt right", or "isolationist" or goies round touting the orange muppet as great.

However, in 2004 there was a vote on the 27 amendment to the Constitution of Ireland which was to vote to close the loophole of so called "anchor babies" and birth tourism which was rampant at the time, or leave it as it was. A loophole that was directly responsible for a large majority of the non EU migrants into this country getting passports and magically becoming Irish and pretty much the start of our multicultural direction. And what happened in that vote? 1.8 million Irish people voted, at the height of the celtic tiger when we were all confident and happy and flush and the loophole was closed and passed with 80% of the votes. The single clearest result of any recent referendum and consistent across counties and towns. The lowest percentage was 70 odd percent, the highest 80 odd. Even though it was opposed by the Greens, Sinn Fein and a few others and even the Irish council for civil liberties and the Human Rights commission and a host of NGO's were against it(big shock with the NGO's...). A clear majority of this country expressed the wish to cut that supply of migrants right off. If that vote had been held in 94 we would have significantly fewer non EU origin Irish citizens today. Going by the current rejection figures we'd have less than one per cent of Nigerians, Moldovans, Ukrainians and a few others. Do you think the vote would go any differently today if it were posed to the Irish electorate? Well it never will be, I will bet the farm on that.

Btw Wibbs which part of this do you disagree with

None of it really B, so long as the process is tight and chancers are thrown out on their arse. Personally I'd deport a shed load of the chancers that came here under the old loophole. I do oppose the multiculturalism is great and a positive angle and we should invite many more in down the line. What was the number Leo reckoned?

Wibbs · 17-10-2020 8:41pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

And no bleeding heart snowflake righty will tell me otherwise

Well it didn't take too long for veil to drop and the insults to start. Plus ca change.

Hamachi · 17-10-2020 8:45pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

I grew up in the estates with them watched them wreck their own streets and the houses and cars of the neighborhood. I'll call the people who wrecked my estate and run around the streets of my city screaming and roaring what ever I want to call them. I also refuse to accept someone with your views as my judge and jury as to whether I am seen in a "positive light"

And no bleeding heart snowflake righty will tell me otherwise

I’m sorry to learn that you grew up in such abominable circumstances. Thankfully, you’re an anomaly and the overwhelming majority of Irish people mature in relatively civilized environments. This probably explains why they don’t feel the need to brand their neighbors and fellow citizens as ‘skangers’.

Getting back to the topic at hand, can you catalog the benefits afforded to Ireland by multiculturalism? What rewards has it bestowed on Irish society?

Hamachi · 17-10-2020 8:46pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Well it didn't take too long for veil to drop and the insults to start. Plus ca change.

I know. It’s as sure as night follows day...

breezy1985 · 17-10-2020 8:52pm

Hamachi wrote: »

I’m sorry to learn that you grew up in such abominable circumstances. Thankfully, you’re an anomaly and the overwhelming majority of Irish people mature in relatively civilized environments. This probably explains why they don’t feel the need to brand their neighbors and fellow citizens as ‘skangers’.

Getting back to the topic at hand, can you catalog the benefits afforded to Ireland by multiculturalism? What rewards has it bestowed on Irish society?

Against stop thinking you speak for the majority in this country by pretending that the Irish people won't call out a skanger when they see one. Only apologist righty bleeding hearts like you excuse their behaviour

Outside of the fact that immigrants have paid a net tax surplus overall I watched as the polish and Indian ships grew up around me along with the cafes and restaurants from around the world and along with the new and interesting ideas they brought my city and country are both a far more interesting place from the one I was born in.

You still haven't answered my question btw

breezy1985 · 17-10-2020 8:54pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Well it didn't take too long for veil to drop and the insults to start. Plus ca change.

It's called satire. I use this term because there is pages of people saying the same about the left you you are completely lying to say the insults have begun there

Hamachi · 17-10-2020 9:03pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

Against stop thinking you speak for the majority in this country by pretending that the Irish people won't call out a skanger when they see one. Only apologist righty bleeding hearts like you excuse their behaviour

Outside of the fact that immigrants have paid a net tax surplus overall I watched as the polish and Indian ships grew up around me along with the cafes and restaurants from around the world and along with the new and interesting ideas they brought my city and country are both a far more interesting place from the one I was born in.

You still haven't answered my question btw

Your own description of your upbringing is far from typical. Most Irish people do not grow up around that level of debasement. As I said, you’re anomalous. Anybody who grows up in a decent environment does not feel the need to brand others as ‘skangers’.

Ok. So we’ve established that you believe the benefits of multiculturalism amount to some local shops and food. I’m not sure what ‘new and interesting’ ideas, you’ve been exposed to, but most people with a decent level of education and the ability to speak a second language expose themselves to different ways of thinking and ideologies, without requiring a demographic overhaul of their home town.

What question did you pose to me?

Strumms · 17-10-2020 9:06pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

But you suggest that to help pay for other things that this is the area it must be taken from. Because they are not Irish tax payers it seems?

But how can the asylum system work if only Irish taxpayers get anything and how do you limit numbers? Just say sorry you have a legit reason and will die if you go home but we have 10 already so good luck. Send em packing like a pregnant Mary in Bethlehem

We already send many packing, who don’t die and who are not in danger but whom are primarily here for economic / quality of life reasons.

If a life IS in danger, they stay, with help, support and a safe environment.

breezy1985 · 17-10-2020 9:10pm

Strumms wrote: »

We already send many packing, who don’t die and who are not in danger but whom are primarily here for economic / quality of life reasons.

If a life IS in danger, they stay, with help, support and a safe environment.

I agree we should send anyone wrongly seeking asylum back but the post I replied to said asylum numbers overall should be limited which would include legitimate ones.

breezy1985 · 17-10-2020 9:19pm

Hamachi wrote: »

Your own description of your upbringing is far from typical. Most Irish people do not grow up around that level of debasement. As I said, you’re anomalous. Anybody who grows up in a decent environment does not feel the need to brand others as ‘skangers’.

Ok. So we’ve established that you believe the benefits of multiculturalism amount to some local shops and food. I’m not sure what ‘new and interesting’ ideas, you’ve been exposed to, but most people with a decent level of education and the ability to speak a second language expose themselves to different ways of thinking and ideologies, without requiring a demographic overhaul of their home town.

What question did you pose to me?

I am not anomalous in calling skangers skangers in this country so again stop speaking for the country when you have no right to.

There was not a demographic overhaul of my home city there's was a tiny addition of foreigners and that is all the country has seen is a small number and not a demographic overhaul.

The question was this

Great we all agree then because I am against illegal immigration too. So we all agree successful asylum seekers, EU migrants and visa migrants are good and only asylum scammers are bad.

You did said you disagree with none of it but on the same sentence than multiculturalism is bad which I find a bit strange

Richard Hillman · 17-10-2020 9:23pm

https://twitter.com/RmSalih/status/1317350932129132544?s=19

This is what we are dealing with

Wibbs · 17-10-2020 9:24pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

It's called satire. I use this term because there is pages of people saying the same about the left you you are completely lying to say the insults have begun there

Me. Earlier. wrote:

Find me one post on this thread from a "right winger" that has insulted other posters. Good luck and if you do I'll be able to quote dozens of direct insults from the "left" in this same thread. I count three who have been banned for it. Regardless of one's position on the subject to deny that is ridiculous.

The "right" as you label them, or more people with questions about this politic have posted plenty of direct points, examples and questions, which the "left" have avoided like the plague, or get shouty and insulting when they couldn't respond. Again I can give you plenty of examples. Hell I can post a dozen from just the last week.

That was in reply to another poster, who avoided that question and task like the plague. And yes there have indeed been occasional digs of the "right on living in bubbles loonie leftie" from some alright, but nothing close to the regular trend after little debate to avoidance, misrepresentation, threats to close the thread and then for the coup de grace direct insult from the "left" on this thread. Now your example was mild B and could indeed be taken as a bit of satire and fair enough, but the overwhelming trend in this thread as far as directed and overt insult has been on one side and it wasn't the "alt right, nazi, racist, sexist, mentally ill, suicidal life failure scum"[actual words used] doing it. So you can maybe see why some of us have grown wary.

Strumms · 17-10-2020 9:25pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

I agree we should send anyone wrongly seeking asylum back but the post I replied to said asylum numbers overall should be limited which would include legitimate ones

Here is a question....

We need to be of the ability, in times of national crisis to make up our minds to cap and stop applications being successful. If covid grips us again, to the point of the country at collapse, economically and socially as unpopular as it’s going to be, we need to think of our own citizens.

Do we still take in, still legally forced to accept applications... still having hundreds of frontline workers dealing with asylum issues when they could be diverted to assist in the health crisis? Gardai, GNIB, Healthcare professionals, and several more jobs needed at the front line of and for taxpayers ?

breezy1985 · 17-10-2020 9:32pm

Strumms wrote: »

Here is a question....

We need to be of the ability, in times of national crisis to make up our minds to cap and stop applications being successful. If covid grips us again, to the point of the country at collapse, economically and socially as unpopular as it’s going to be, we need to think of our own citizens.

Do we still take in, still legally forced to accept applications... still having hundreds of frontline workers dealing with asylum issues when they could be diverted to assist in the health crisis? Gardai, GNIB, Healthcare professionals, and several more jobs needed at the front line of and for taxpayers ?

If we are at the point that the country is in collapse and I assume you really mean collapse as in we will be a 3rd world country or in famine or lawlessness ourselves or another scenario where the country is so riddled with covid that we are all dropping to the ground then yes we should not only look after our own but tell anyone coming to these shores that they are safer in whatever dangerous place they came from than to us.

But we are a long way from that and as things stand the only thing we need to do is put the direct provision system in order

Hamachi · 17-10-2020 9:33pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

I am not anomalous in calling skangers skangers in this country so again stop speaking for the country when you have no right to.

There was not a demographic overhaul of my home city there's was a tiny addition of foreigners and that is all the country has seen is a small number and not a demographic overhaul.

The question was this

Great we all agree then because I am against illegal immigration too. So we all agree successful asylum seekers, EU migrants and visa migrants are good and only asylum scammers are bad.

You did said you disagree with none of it but on the same sentence than multiculturalism is bad which I find a bit strange

You are anomalous. No right-thinking person brands their fellow citizens as ‘skangers’. Let’s agree to disagree on that one. It’s not germane to this discussion.

You’ve confused me with another poster in your haste to bang out responses. I haven’t interacted with you before. My perspective on inward migration isn’t a million miles from what you’ve outlined.

1. High caliber, skills-based migration to plug economic holes.
2. Genuine asylum seekers only and distributed across the EU in a manner, proportionate to population size and economic strength.
3. Freedom of movement for EU citizens continues in its current format.
4. Enforcement of temporary visas. I know from personal experience that the ‘language school’ migration channel has been shamelessly abused. This needs to be halted.

See not so different after all. In terms of multiculturalism, I don’t agree with it. I’ve lived in a country where I’ve seen first hand, parallel societies evolve and become deeply entrenched. I believe in the assimilation approach. If migrants decide to come here, the onus is on them to adapt and become somewhat Irish as they start planting more permanent roots in this country.

breezy1985 · 17-10-2020 9:37pm

Wibbs wrote: »

That was in reply to another poster, who avoided that question and task like the plague. And yes there have indeed been occasional digs of the "right on living in bubbles loonie leftie" from some alright, but nothing close to the regular trend after little debate to avoidance, misrepresentation, threats to close the thread and then for the coup de grace direct insult from the "left" on this thread. Now your example was mild B and could indeed be taken as a bit of satire and fair enough, but the overwhelming trend in this thread as far as directed and overt insult has been on one side and it wasn't the "alt right, nazi, racist, sexist, mentally ill, suicidal life failure scum"[actual words used] doing it. So you can maybe see why some of us have grown wary.

We could both spend all night pulling up quotes of when one side insulted the other I suppose.

I said what I think is good about multiculturalism in Ireland now ide like to know what you think is bad about it in Ireland

Strumms · 17-10-2020 9:37pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

If we are at the point that the country is in collapse and I assume you really mean collapse as in we will be a 3rd world country or in famine or lawlessness ourselves or another scenario where the country is so riddled with covid that we are all dropping to the ground then yes we should not only look after our own but tell anyone coming to these shores that they are safer in whatever dangerous place they came from than to us.

But we are a long way from that and as things stand the only thing we need to do is put the direct provision system in order

Since direct provision started its cost the Irish taxpayers 1.3 billion euro as of 2019.

Roughly 120 million a year.

But you want to wait until covid has people collapsing in the streets from famine, lawlessness abound, BEFORE you do something ? Ok. I’m pretty glad that isn’t a very shared view.

breezy1985 · 17-10-2020 9:52pm

Strumms wrote: »

Since direct provision started its cost the Irish taxpayers 1.3 billion euro as of 2019.

Roughly 120 million a year.

But you want to wait until covid has people collapsing in the streets from famine, lawlessness abound, BEFORE you do something ? Ok. I’m pretty glad that isn’t a very shared view.

That's not what I said at all. Direct provision needs to be brought up to scratch now to deal with cases quicker but still correctly. So I did not say wait till famine to do anything like your lie of a post says

You asked what we should do if the country COLLAPSED ( because capitals are important to you it seems) and yes we should stop asylum then.

Hamachi · 17-10-2020 10:02pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

That's not what I said at all. Direct provision needs to be brought up to scratch now to deal with cases quicker but still correctly.

Direct provision is the housing model for accommodating asylum seekers. It’s an entirely different concept to case determination or processing speed.

Wibbs · 17-10-2020 10:05pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

We could both spend all night pulling up quotes of when one side insulted the other I suppose.

Indeed B, but as I've said you won't get close to the insults coming from the apparent "left" and that's a fact for all to read.

I said what I think is good about multiculturalism in Ireland now ide like to know what you think is bad about it in Ireland

So far it's sorta OK, mainly because of relatively small numbers and a short amount of time. But already we have the creep of ghettoisation in parts of Dublin, we already have the creep of some demographics more involved in antisocial behaviour, we've already seen the creep of some demographics being more represented among the social welfare class. That's after only 20 years of it. As we've seen in other multicultural nations that creep gets worse with the generations and numbers and a disconnect between ones "own" and the wider country comes along. Well, naturally and understandably as subsequent generations figure out pretty well that by virtue of their skin colour or creed in some cases they may hold a British or French, or Dutch passport, but they know they're not quite those nationalities enough for enough of the locals and division ebbs and flows. There isn't a single example of a modern multicultural nation where this hasn't happened and is happening today. Which in turn fuels ghettoisation, antisocial behaviour and a creep to the bottom of society.

And set against that we get the apparently exotic thrill of new foods and exotic faces, a feeling of charity towards the less fortunate(that one I get) as positives. I'm really not being flippant B, that's about the sum of the positives listed by those in favour of this politic in the entire thread. It's as if it's been a) swallowed whole as a positive with little investigation and/or b) some need for the exotic(long in play in the European psyche) and/or a feeling of some sort of White guilt reparation for the past.

And save for one poster, not one in favour of this politic would suggest that what non European countries with darker or yellower skinned folks really need to improve their societies is a load of new White immigrant faces. Lord no. And that poster referenced Kenya as an example... Exactly. This diversity is very much only one way and only White Europeans seem to need it. There's even a colour bias to it. East Asian folks rarely get a look in and White migrants almost zero. Seriously, check out any Irish NGO that deals with racism/immigration webpage. You'll see vanishingly few Asian faces and zero Caucasian. Yet in the Irish non native population we have well over a hundred thousand White non Irish and quite a chunk of them are non EU with it. Apparently this "diversity" is fierce specific.

breezy1985 · 17-10-2020 10:06pm

Hamachi wrote: »

Direct provision is the housing model for accommodating asylum seekers. It’s an entirely different concept to case determination or processing speed.

Apologies then. It's the term often used to describe the whole system. Either way I do think processing should be more efficient if the stories of people waiting years are true.

What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

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