What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

Strumms

breezy1985 wrote: »

That's not what I said at all. Direct provision needs to be brought up to scratch now to deal with cases quicker but still correctly. So I did not say wait till famine to do anything like your lie of a post says

You asked what we should do if the country COLLAPSED ( because capitals are important to you it seems) and yes we should stop asylum then.

We need to stop it before quite simply to redeploy staff who can help the current population.

breezy1985

Wibbs wrote: »

Indeed B, but as I've said you won't get close to the insults coming from the apparent "left" and that's a fact for all to read.

So far it's sorta OK, mainly because of relatively small numbers and a short amount of time. But already we have the creep of ghettoisation in parts of Dublin, we already have the creep of some demographics more involved in antisocial behaviour, we've already seen the creep of some demographics being more represented among the social welfare class. That's after only 20 years of it. As we've seen in other multicultural nations that creep gets worse with the generations and numbers and a disconnect between ones "own" and the wider country comes along. Well, naturally and understandably as subsequent generations figure out pretty well that by virtue of their skin colour or creed in some cases they may hold a British or French, or Dutch passport, but they know they're not quite those nationalities enough for enough of the locals and division ebbs and flows. There isn't a single example of a modern multicultural nation where this hasn't happened and is happening today. Which in turn fuels ghettoisation, antisocial behaviour and a creep to the bottom of society.

And set against that we get the apparently exotic thrill of new foods and exotic faces, a feeling of charity towards the less fortunate(that one I get) as positives. I'm really not being flippant B, that's about the sum of the positives listed by those in favour of this politic in the entire thread. It's as if it's been a) swallowed whole as a positive with little investigation and/or b) some need for the exotic(long in play in the European psyche) and/or a feeling of some sort of White guilt reparation for the past.

And save for one poster, not one in favour of this politic would suggest that what non European countries with darker or yellower skinned folks really need to improve their societies is a load of new White immigrant faces. Lord no. And that poster referenced Kenya as an example... Exactly. This diversity is very much only one way and only White Europeans seem to need it. There's even a colour bias to it. East Asian folks rarely get a look in and White migrants almost zero. Seriously, check out any Irish NGO that deals with racism/immigration webpage. You'll see vanishingly few Asian faces and zero Caucasian. Yet in the Irish non native population we have well over a hundred thousand White non Irish and quite a chunk of them are non EU with it. Apparently this "diversity" is fierce specific.

What I am hoping for is Ireland a country with no colonial hangup or need for white guilt can learn from the past and not ghettoise these people and I think the attitude of you and others on here is what creates that ghettoisation. You may be right about parts of Dublin as honestly I don't know much about the place outside the centre but I don't see any ghettoisation of any racial groups in my personal life and it's all the same old ghettoised white Irish where I am.

I accept that immigrants are often working class and in the low pay brackets just like most Irish including myself when I left home but is there a massive portion of certain groups contributing to social welfare I would be interested in stats on that cause honestly going on what I see it's not there.

I know nothing of this other poster you mention so I won't speak for him but I personally feel no need or requirement for Ireland or any other country to change its demographics or force itself to be more diverse I do prefer Ireland now to the one I grew up in and I am happy for my tax to pay for legal asylum and foreign aid and the Ireland that some people want to go back to is not my Ireland and I am about as Irish as it gets genetically so I'm sick of people talking about the real Ireland because there is no one definition of the country

Hamachi

breezy1985 wrote: »

Apologies then. It's the term often used to describe the whole system. Either way I do think processing should be more efficient if the stories of people waiting years are true.

Agreed.

However, accelerating processing speed also means that those applicants who do not meet the criteria for asylum are quickly removed from Ireland. One appeal and if that also fails, the applicant needs to leave.

I don’t know if you’re aware of the stats, but ~80% of asylum claims are rejected, even on appeal. This cohort of people have no right to be in this country. The interminable legal processes and disingenuous media reporting needs to stop. Deportation is an essential instrument of the asylum process. It needs to be exercised when the application has been proven to be groundless.

Wibbs

breezy1985 wrote: »

What I am hoping for is Ireland a country with no colonial hangup or need for white guilt can learn from the past and not ghettoise these people and I think the attitude of you and others on here is what creates that ghettoisation.

If it were only that simple B, well it actually is, but more on that... But let's imagine that you're right and it's external attitudes that drive this. OK, but if so then those attitudes have not gone away in any multicultural country in Europe, or anywhere else.

But the actual basic human nature reason for ghettoisation is quite simply people prefer to be around those most like themselves with a common culture, history, ethnicity and credo(and socioeconomic class too). This is regardless of "race". Go to any multicultural city(and diversity is almost entirely urban) and you will find... well take the US, you'll find a Jewish quarter, a Little China, little Italy, an Irish quarter, an African quarter etc. You see the same in France, the UK, Germany, Holland and so on. You see the same thing in Asia and Africa where there is more than one ethnicity going on. You can't change basic human nature by hope, or indeed legislation and planning. And it's already too late, even here in relatively low number and short time multicultural Ireland.

I know nothing of this other poster you mention so I won't speak for him but I personally feel no need or requirement for Ireland or any other country to change its demographics or force itself to be more diverse I do prefer Ireland now to the one I grew up in and I am happy for my tax to pay for legal asylum and foreign aid and the Ireland that some people want to go back to is not my Ireland and I am about as Irish as it gets genetically so I'm sick of people talking about the real Ireland because there is no one definition of the country

There is, but it only lasts for a short time for the most part has been overall consistent to some degree. And yes B the Ireland of today is mostly much better(and I kinda remember it in the 70's so... ), but it didn't need multiculturalism to do it. And I have no issue with a bit of diversity coming in, but there can be a tipping point and I don't want us to go there. I don't want to be like chunks of urban France, or Sweden, or even the UK and I would happily forego the possible pleasures of Kazakh yak steak stew to do so.

breezy1985

breezy1985 wrote: »

Against stop thinking you speak for the majority in this country by pretending that the Irish people won't call out a skanger when they see one. Only apologist righty bleeding hearts like you excuse their behaviour

You keep suggesting that other posters are speaking for others when, in fact, they're simply stating their own opinions... perhaps influenced by polls, and surveys, but still, their own opinions. Just as you have done.

You seem to want to apply standards to the posters on this thread, which you have no intention of applying to yourself.

As for bleeding hearts, I grew up in a midlands town, during a time when unemployment was rampant, crime was high, and serious problems with drug addiction was commonplace. Many people in Ireland went through similar problems with the areas they grew up.. and we don't feel the need to lambaste the weakest members of our society because of it. Some people just aren't suited to a modern world, and fail to meet the standards needed to support themselves... it happens everywhere, and it is the mark of a civilised nation, that we provide for those people.. because we can.

We recognise that we have a responsibility to provide for those people as part of our tax contributions, because ultimately they're our people. Bringing in migrants to be supported... though... that doesn't make much sense. Especially considering the changing climate of western economies, and social upheavals. It makes sense to fix our own problems before bringing in more people we cannot adequately provide for...

Outside of the fact that immigrants have paid a net tax surplus overall I watched as the polish and Indian ships grew up around me along with the cafes and restaurants from around the world and along with the new and interesting ideas they brought my city and country are both a far more interesting place from the one I was born in.

Ok. If that's a fact, then I'm sure you can provide a range of links to statistics and reports showing the net gain to the State versus the costs to maintain the migrants during their entire stay here?

This blending of migrants doesn't make sense. Legal migrants with the skills/education to obtain work are a benefit to the economy, because typically, they have jobs arranged before they arrive, and find it relatively easy to replace positions should they lose them. Most other migrants don't match such a condition, requiring long periods either for the processing of their claims, and/or to educate them to the level of being gainfully employed.

You still haven't answered my question btw

Ahh well, I noticed you skipped over my own long response to you.

Cut out the emotional/derogatory outbursts, and lets all discuss the topic in a rational and respectful manner? hmm?

Hamachi

breezy1985 wrote: »

...not ghettoise these people and I think the attitude of you and others on here is what creates that ghettoisation. You may be right about parts of Dublin as honestly I don't know much about the place outside the centre but I don't see any ghettoisation of any racial groups in my personal life and it's all the same old ghettoised white Irish where I am.

I accept that immigrants are often working class and in the low pay brackets just like most Irish including myself when I left home but is there a massive portion of certain groups contributing to social welfare I would be interested in stats on that cause honestly going on what I see it's not there.

I know this post isn’t directed at me, but there’s a few points I feel compelled to address.

You’ve mentioned that the level of immigration to your home town is relatively low. That’s not the case in Dublin. Immigrants tends to gravitate to and cluster in large urban areas. Dublin is no different in that regard.

I’m reluctant to use the word ‘ghettoes’. Nevertheless, there are visible concentrations of distinct ethnic groups in parts of West and North Dublin. I’ve already recounted on this thread that some people in my West Dublin neighborhood have removed their children from local schools, as they believed that their education was being compromised due to the focus on English-language acquisition. Furthermore, there are areas, to which Irish people simply will not move, as they are known to be dominated by a particular ethnicity. This is a result of fundamental human behavior, where people simply prefer being around those most similar to themselves in background and outlook. It’s spectacularly arrogant of you to accuse folks here of contributing to ghettoization when you openly admit that you are entirely ignorant of the demographics of suburban Dublin.

With respect to your second point around immigrants accessing social welfare, the following are some facts:

1. People born abroad constitute ~16% of the population of Ireland.
2. In 2017, 35% of people claiming rent supplement in Fingal (North & West Dublin) were born abroad.
3. In 2017, 39% of those waiting for social housing in Fingal were born abroad.
4. In 2016, just 40% of African-heritage people in Ireland were in full time employment.

All of this data is available from the Department of Social Protection, accessed via a FOI request. I’m not using this data to slam all immigrants. I’m pointing out the reality to you in our capital city.

Overall, immigration is a positive as long as we are attracting skilled people, who can contribute and have the capacity and willingness to integrate. Ireland’s results in this sphere have been mixed throughout the last twenty years.

Wibbs

Wibbs wrote: »

If it were only that simple B, well it actually is, but more on that... But let's imagine that you're right and it's external attitudes that drive this. OK, but if so then those attitudes have not gone away in any multicultural country in Europe, or anywhere else.

But the actual basic human nature reason for ghettoisation is quite simply people prefer to be around those most like themselves with a common culture, history, ethnicity and credo(and socioeconomic class too). This is regardless of "race". Go to any multicultural city(and diversity is almost entirely urban) and you will find... well take the US, you'll find a Jewish quarter, a Little China, little Italy, an Irish quarter, an African quarter etc. You see the same in France, the UK, Germany, Holland and so on. You see the same thing in Asia and Africa where there is more than one ethnicity going on. You can't change basic human nature by hope, or indeed legislation and planning. And it's already too late, even here in relatively low number and short time multicultural Ireland.

Ahh well, I think a large part of the problem with Ghettoisation is due to basic economics. When migrants come in, they're at the bottom of the employment sector, due to a lack of language, education, employable skills, etc. In larger countries, migrants enter the manufacturing or farming industries, as low skilled labor earning low wages. As these peoples come together (as you said) they're coming together poor... and with that poverty, comes the bitterness against the others who have more than them. Then, they become victims in their own minds. Victims of racism, discrimination, etc. Not that they came lacking in the skills/education/language required, but that it is an external influence by the host nations population to keep them down. And so, they focus on their own cultural connections, building stronger bonds with those who are similar to themselves, and building a community.

The problem though is the building of such a community means bringing about the culture that the sought to escape. Oh, not the culture itself, but the results of the cultural behavior. The poor economies, the work ethics, the racism, sexism, and violent crime. We can see such with our own Traveller groups, or low end working class estates, who seem to feed on each other to encourage a greater degree of hopelessness and a lack of desire for forward positive change.

I'd like to see a move away from this. Control the numbers of migrants coming into the country to amounts that fit within the resources available to provide for them. Dedicated educational systems in place to provide language acquisition, skills, and education for them to achieve professional level positions. Not aim to set them up in low paid positions, but to the same standard as other Irish people... and as they achieve those qualifications, they be "encouraged" to spread outwards into the mid-sized towns throughout the countryside, away from Dublin, or the main population centers. This would require real investment in small/medium sized businesses, not as a political gesture, but with the aim of creating a backbone of sustainable industries across the country. Ultimately benefiting everyone.

I'd also have case officers assigned to all migrants (and our own poor) to follow, monitor, and support those who are part of the system, but unlike our own poor, the migrants would be on a probationary period until they've proved them capable of achieving the educational standards, or keeping out of trouble. If they fail to do so, drop them off in a non-European country.

breezy1985

Wibbs wrote: »

If it were only that simple B, well it actually is, but more on that... But let's imagine that you're right and it's external attitudes that drive this. OK, but if so then those attitudes have not gone away in any multicultural country in Europe, or anywhere else.

But the actual basic human nature reason for ghettoisation is quite simply people prefer to be around those most like themselves with a common culture, history, ethnicity and credo(and socioeconomic class too). This is regardless of "race". Go to any multicultural city(and diversity is almost entirely urban) and you will find... well take the US, you'll find a Jewish quarter, a Little China, little Italy, an Irish quarter, an African quarter etc. You see the same in France, the UK, Germany, Holland and so on. You see the same thing in Asia and Africa where there is more than one ethnicity going on. You can't change basic human nature by hope, or indeed legislation and planning. And it's already too late, even here in relatively low number and short time multicultural Ireland.

There is, but it only lasts for a short time for the most part has been overall consistent to some degree. And yes B the Ireland of today is mostly much better(and I kinda remember it in the 70's so... ), but it didn't need multiculturalism to do it. And I have no issue with a bit of diversity coming in, but there can be a tipping point and I don't want us to go there. I don't want to be like chunks of urban France, or Sweden, or even the UK and I would happily forego the possible pleasures of Kazakh yak steak stew to do so.

I don't think that there will be a tipping point for one as I think immigration has a natural level and let's be honest here the current numbers are tiny and even the UK which has had years of immigrants from non white nations the number is still 85% white.
You have just said yourself that ghettoisation is the cause of attitudes but then claim it is some sort of genetic code in people not learned behaviour which is false as ghettoisation is usually caused by a group being forced into what can be afforded. The immigrants of Kilburn would happily have lived in Richmond if they could have.

And having lived in so called predominantly black areas of London I would have no problems living in such an area again.

All your worries are just that worries based on fear of the unknown and every country will have its ghetto problems immigrants or not and the demographics won't change it a bit. It wasn't the immigration that got Veronica Guerin shot caused the feud in Limerick and it wasn't the immigrant who gave Ballymun or Mayfield a bad name

Mules

breezy1985 wrote: »

I don't think that there will be a tipping point for one as I think immigration has a natural level and let's be honest here the current numbers are tiny and even the UK which has had years of immigrants from non white nations the number is still 85% white.
You have just said yourself that ghettoisation is the cause of attitudes but then claim it is some sort of genetic code in people not learned behaviour which is false as ghettoisation is usually caused by a group being forced into what can be afforded. The immigrants of Kilburn would happily have lived in Richmond if they could have.

And having lived in so called predominantly black areas of London I would have no problems living in such an area again.

All your worries are just that worries based on fear of the unknown and every country will have its ghetto problems immigrants or not and the demographics won't change it a bit. It wasn't the immigration that got Veronica Guerin shot caused the feud in Limerick and it wasn't the immigrant who gave Ballymun or Mayfield a bad name

Over 17% of the population being foreign born is hardly tiny. That's higher than in the UK

Hamachi

breezy1985 wrote: »

I don't think that there will be a tipping point for one as I think immigration has a natural level and let's be honest here the current numbers are tiny and even the UK which has had years of immigrants from non white nations the number is still 85% white.
You have just said yourself that ghettoisation is the cause of attitudes but then claim it is some sort of genetic code in people not learned behaviour which is false as ghettoisation is usually caused by a group being forced into what can be afforded. The immigrants of Kilburn would happily have lived in Richmond if they could have.

And having lived in so called predominantly black areas of London I would have no problems living in such an area again.

All your worries are just that worries based on fear of the unknown and every country will have its ghetto problems immigrants or not and the demographics won't change it a bit. It wasn't the immigration that got Veronica Guerin shot caused the feud in Limerick and it wasn't the immigrant who gave Ballymun or Mayfield a bad name

Interesting that you’ve chosen the UK and London as the poster child for multiculturalism. Given that you’ve lived in London, I’m sure you’re aware that the White British population in London has dropped by 750,000 people throughout the last 15 years, plummeting from 59% of the total in 2001 to 44% in 2015. If the diversity of the British capital was truly as harmonious as we are lead to believe, surely this level of white flight would not be occurring? Shouldn’t white Britons be flocking to the capital to embrace its abundant diversity?

That’s great that you thrived living in predominantly black areas of London. Personally, I lived for several years in overwhelmingly Turkish/Arabic areas of Berlin. It’s not an experience I have any desire to repeat, nor do I wish to see that parallel Gesellschaft model replicated in Ireland.

Again, the spectacular arrogance in ‘the fear of the unknown’ assertion. I’ll wager that my career is significantly more international than yours and that I’ve spent far longer living outside Ireland than you. Has it ever occurred to you that many posters here have seen multicultural societies up close in their personal and professional lives and simply aren’t impressed?

The spurious references to Ballymun, Mayfield, Veronica Guerin etc.. are irrelevant. Nobody here is claiming that that a monocultural Ireland is utopia. Everybody is in agreement that we have many pre-existing social problems. That’s why inward migration needs to be highly selective. Permit access to the right caliber people, to ensure that we aren’t importing yet more social problems. How is this so difficult to comprehend?

Hamachi

Hamachi wrote: »

In 2016, just 40% of African-heritage people in Ireland were in full time employment.

Department of Social Protection, accessed via a FOI request.

Pleasantly *surprised at this (in a somewhat perverse way). Reads as if both children born in Ireland of African parentage, as well as those that were African born are counted in that stat.

* Surprised at the fact that both those who were born there, as well as 'the new Irish' seem to be included. Figured any excuse would be used to count 'The new Irish' as Irish, in an effort to lessen that percentage.

The cynic in me thinks the goalposts will be shifted though. I mean, in 2016, how many children of African parents would have been born in Ireland? Quite a few I'd imagine, but no doubt there's been an exponential increase year on year.
Next time they furnish stats the percentage will have probably decreased using the same 'African-Heritage' criteria, except I figure 'The new Irish' will not be included.

breezy1985

Mules wrote: »

Over 17% of the population being foreign born is hardly tiny. That's higher than in the UK

No it's not I said 85% white I didn't say foreign born. 92% of Ireland is white. A large part of the foreign born in both countries comes from each other so a fair bit of the 9.5% of the white non Irish are UK and a fair bit of that are from NI and these figures don't count no white Irish or travellers who are counted separately

Rodin

I don't see everyone who has an Irish passport as being Irish

Rodin

Rodin wrote: »

I don't see everyone who has an Irish passport as being Irish

More than likely neither do most of them themselves, and probably never will either.

breezy1985

breezy1985 wrote: »

I don't think that there will be a tipping point for one as I think immigration has a natural level and let's be honest here the current numbers are tiny and even the UK which has had years of immigrants from non white nations the number is still 85% white.

Normally, I would agree that immigration would have a natural level, but we don't live in "normal" times. Migration from Africa, M.East, and Asia is only going to increase, since in all three regions, they're suffering problems with Climate change, and political/religious upheavals, while also dealing with increased population growth.

Once again, it comes back to the classification of migrants. Skilled/educated migrants would fall within a natural level of immigration, but now, we're seeing a rise of immigration of people who wouldn't traditionally have met the requirements for entry into the country. Genuine Asylum claims are tiny, but we're seeing a regular rise in claims from both economic and refugee groups. Some leaving war-torn regions, others due to economic issues. That's only going to increase over time.

As for the UK, there's no comparison. Ireland has seen a dramatic change of close to 17% change over thirty years. Members of various political parties here have made statements wanting to bring in more migrants in the region of a million more than what we currently have. A million people is a rather significant change to the demographic, especially since we can be reasonably sure that they're not talking about Europeans, but rather non-westerners.

You have just said yourself that ghettoisation is the cause of attitudes but then claim it is some sort of genetic code in people not learned behaviour which is false as ghettoisation is usually caused by a group being forced into what can be afforded. The immigrants of Kilburn would happily have lived in Richmond if they could have.

It's not genetics, it's social science and group psychology. You could consider what he said before trying to twist it.

And having lived in so called predominantly black areas of London I would have no problems living in such an area again.

Sure, neither would I. Depending on the area. I've lived extensively among other racial groups, and it's naive to consider them any less likely to produce dangerous neighborhoods, than white people do. But the socio-economic aspects of migrants has a strong bearing on the situation in such neighborhoods. Better paid people with a quality lifestyle are more likely to seek to establish a safe community... migrants though, typically, end up on the lowest rung of employment, and so, won't have that sense of pride in what they have.

All your worries are just that worries based on fear of the unknown and every country will have its ghetto problems immigrants or not and the demographics won't change it a bit. It wasn't the immigration that got Veronica Guerin shot caused the feud in Limerick and it wasn't the immigrant who gave Ballymun or Mayfield a bad name

It's not fear of the unknown, since this immigrant Ghetto experiment has been played out in France, Germany, Sweden, etc over the last thirty years, all with similar results.

positron

Hamachi wrote: »

4. In 2016, just 40% of African-heritage people in Ireland were in full time employment.

Genuinely curious, is this 40% of working age people of African-heritage, or 40% of all the population (including elderly, children etc)? Also curious how it compares to various other groups, including native Irish people. Thanks a million!

breezy1985

Hamachi wrote: »

Interesting that you’ve chosen the UK and London as the poster child for multiculturalism. Given that you’ve lived in London, I’m sure you’re aware that the White British population in London has dropped by 750,000 people throughout the last 15 years, plummeting from 59% of the total in 2001 to 44% in 2015. If the diversity of the British capital was truly as harmonious as we are lead to believe, surely this level of white flight would not be occurring? Shouldn’t white Britons be flocking to the capital to embrace its abundant diversity?

That’s great that you thrived living in predominantly black areas of London. Personally, I lived for several years in overwhelmingly Turkish/Arabic areas of Berlin. It’s not an experience I have any desire to repeat, nor do I wish to see that parallel Gesellschaft model replicated in Ireland.

Again, the spectacular arrogance in ‘the fear of the unknown’ assertion. I’ll wager that my career is significantly more international than yours and that I’ve spent far longer living outside Ireland than you. Has it ever occurred to you that many posters here have seen multicultural societies up close in their personal and professional lives and simply aren’t impressed?

The spurious references to Ballymun, Mayfield, Veronica Guerin etc.. are irrelevant. Nobody here is claiming that that a monocultural Ireland is utopia. Everybody is in agreement that we have many pre-existing social problems. That’s why inward migration needs to be highly selective. Permit access to the right caliber people, to ensure that we aren’t importing yet more social problems. How is this so difficult to comprehend?

White flight has alot to do with what you call London. White British people moved further out into the commuter belt for better houses and quality of life but still work in London and leaving the cramped flat for us immigrants.

And do you ever think that maybe it was your attitude and preconceptions that made integration hard for you in Berlin

And no those links are not spurious. Every country has deprived areas with high crime and nothing but your fear points to a future that Ireland will have more of them after more multiculturalism. The UK France Germany and Italy all had crime problems before multiculturalism and yes the skin colour may have changed on some perpetrators but the crime level doesn't change by changing the demographics anywhere in the world

positron

positron wrote: »

Genuinely curious, is this 40% of working age people of African-heritage, or 40% of all the population (including elderly, children etc)? Also curious how it compares to various other groups, including native Irish people. Thanks a million!

Aren't employment/unemployment stats usually based on the total regardless of age?

Cordell

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-cp11eoi/cp11eoi/lfnmfl/
It clearly shows who's here to work and who's here for the free ride.

jmreire

breezy1985 wrote: »

Quote:
"And no those links are not spurious. Every country has deprived areas with high crime and nothing but your fear points to a future that Ireland will have more of them after more multiculturalism. The UK France Germany and Italy all had crime problems before multiculturalism and yes the skin colour may have changed on some perpetrators but the crime level doesn't change by changing the demographics anywhere in the world

Sure all Country's have crime level's, but some are worse that other's. And we can well do without importing citizens from Country's which make our home grown ( Ordinary Decent Criminals or ODC, if you prefer ) look like amateur's. And believe me, they do exist. How much have you travelled around the world breezy? What Country's have you lived in ( excluding Europe) Say Pakistan, Afghanistan etc? or Africa / Asia?

Hamachi

positron wrote: »

Genuinely curious, is this 40% of working age people of African-heritage, or 40% of all the population (including elderly, children etc)? Also curious how it compares to various other groups, including native Irish people. Thanks a million!

From recollection and admittedly, I need to dig out the link, it is 40% of the entire African population, not just the working age cohort. Again, from recollection, the equivalent figure for the all-up indigenous Irish population is 66%.

For balance, the % of African-origin people less than 18 years old is higher than the indigenous Irish % in that age cohort. However, the number of Africans of retirement age is negligible, whereas as 12%-13% of indigenous Irish are > 65 years old.

I don’t recall the precise numbers for EU nationals, but I’m pretty sure that the % in full time employment was higher than indigenous Irish.

The numbers for the African-heritage population were certainly statistically significant.

Rodin

jmreire wrote: »

Sure all Country's have crime level's, but some are worse that other's. And we can well do without importing citizens from Country's which make our home grown ( Ordinary Decent Criminals or ODC, if you prefer ) look like amateur's. And believe me, they do exist. How much have you travelled around the world breezy? What Country's have you lived in ( excluding Europe) Say Pakistan, Afghanistan etc? or Africa / Asia?

Jesus you've got the horn on for apostrophes!
Plurals do not needs apostrophies. Recognise. Please.

jmreire

Rodin wrote: »

Jesus you've got the horn on for apostrophes!
Plurals do not needs apostrophies. Recognise. Please.

Seems that you are more interested in the grammar than the point I am trying to make Rodin...strange given that apostrophies (your spelling, not mine ) seems to to be misspelt according to Google autocorrect anyway ???
But anyway, thanks for the advice...;)

Hamachi

breezy1985 wrote: »

White flight has alot to do with what you call London. White British people moved further out into the commuter belt for better houses and quality of life but still work in London and leaving the cramped flat for us immigrants.

And do you ever think that maybe it was your attitude and preconceptions that made integration hard for you in Berlin

And no those links are not spurious. Every country has deprived areas with high crime and nothing but your fear points to a future that Ireland will have more of them after more multiculturalism. The UK France Germany and Italy all had crime problems before multiculturalism and yes the skin colour may have changed on some perpetrators but the crime level doesn't change by changing the demographics anywhere in the world

So that’s why towns like Bournemouth are heaving with ex-Londoners. They must have moved two hours away for the sea air. ‘Course they did..

I integrated brilliantly in Berlin thanks. Have a lot of German friends, was at a wedding over there before lockdown, and speak the language pretty well. Pretty different to some of my third generation neighbors in Neu Koeln, whose grandparents migrated to Germany in the ‘50s and ‘60s, yet can barely manage a rudimentary conversation in the language, native to their country of birth. You clearly have no idea what a parallel Gesellschaft means.

Yes; those links are incredibly spurious and your argument is whataboutery in the extreme. You know full well that people of particular ethnic backgrounds are far more likely to coalesce at the bottom of the socioeconomic pyramid and are equally likely to be condemned to life in deprived estates. The point that I have reiterated time and again is that we need to be selective in who is admitted to Ireland. We should be restricting access to those who have the proven skillset to be an economic asset to this country. This has nothing to do with Ballymun, Mayfield or whatever disingenuous analogy you are trotting out.

Strumms

The EU need to reform immigration policy.

It was set up and implemented in a NON covid world.

As things are now, we simply cannot afford to accept more people into the country. Regardless of why they need or want to arrive.

Non covid? All well and good, now ? No ! We don’t have the cash or the resources to help. We may have a LOT of Irish people trying to relocate back if things go tits up elsewhere covid wise or potentially economy wise. As Irish people and holders of Irish passports that’s their entitlement.

We can’t be extending generosity far beyond our passport holders unfortunately in this climate.

Hamachi

Cordell wrote: »

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-cp11eoi/cp11eoi/lfnmfl/
It clearly shows who's here to work and who's here for the free ride.

Figure 3.4 is certainly eye opening. It is actually the working age population > 15 years old. Some of those unemployment rates are genuinely depressing.

Wibbs

breezy1985 wrote: »

You have just said yourself that ghettoisation is the cause of attitudes but then claim it is some sort of genetic code in people not learned behaviour which is false as ghettoisation is usually caused by a group being forced into what can be afforded.

No. No I did not say that. Read it again. This time please take the preconceived blinkers off. I said if you were correct and it was down to attitudes then those attitudes have not gone away and won't anytime soon, and not just among the native populations.

However I went on to say that the actual reason for ghettoisation, or enclaves if that's a better term, of all forms is the basic human nature tendency to feel better being around those who are closest to you in ethnicity, culture, religion etc. Something that is repeated everywhere you care to look and throughout history(with a few outliers like ancient Rome).

The immigrants of Kilburn would happily have lived in Richmond if they could have.

But why Kilburn? They could have lived in any number of similar areas based on their economics, but they tended to drift towards their own, which tended to be in Kilburn. Both the so called "left" and "right" are obsessed by and see the explanation of human nature as economic. It's not, or to a much lesser degree. So for example how do you explain groups like Jewish and Chinese folks? Demographics that on average have more personal wealth and education than the background population who still tend to drift towards living among their own. Jewish Londoners first started to coalesce around the East End then when they went up in the world drifted towards Golders Green. Chinatowns across the western world are on average wealthier than surrounding areas and demographics, yet...

Again this is really basic human nature stuff, stuff you can't legislate for or naively wish away. This is a common issue with the "left", they tend to buy into the 60/70's nurture and culture is everything and nature is minimal and can be changed. This time.(the "right" go the opposite extreme and tend to see everything as nature, both silly positions).

All your worries are just that worries based on fear of the unknown and every country will have its ghetto problems immigrants or not and the demographics won't change it a bit. It wasn't the immigration that got Veronica Guerin shot caused the feud in Limerick and it wasn't the immigrant who gave Ballymun or Mayfield a bad name

As has been pointed out several times in this thread there is nothing "unknown" about how this tends to play out everywhere and there are countless examples of it from everywhere modern multiculturalism plays out. Existing social problems are added to, with the twist of ethnic and racial divide as the cherry on top.

kildare lad

Cordell wrote: »

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-cp11eoi/cp11eoi/lfnmfl/
It clearly shows who's here to work and who's here for the free ride.

They hardly needy to do a study to tell you that , outside of taxi driving and the odd security guard you'd be lucky to find them working . Let's be honest here , they didn't come here to work. If we didn't have an overly generous Welfare system before they changed the anchor baby laws they wouldn't have travel this far to live . Sure intel should start employing all the unemployed ones , since diversity makes companies more successful.

Mules

One of the really taking the piss things is the amount of Saudi's claiming asylum. I couldn't understand it until I read a piece in the Times about a Pakistani family who moved to Saudi years earlier but moved to Ireland to claim asylum after Saudi recently brought in taxes. Obviously Irish taxes are a hell of a lot more than Saudi taxes so you'd wonder are they planning to work here at all. The mad thing was the man being interviewed didn't even say anything that would indicate a legitimate asylum claim. He just came straight out and said it was because he didn't want to pay tax.

Gervais08

Rodin wrote: »

I don't see everyone who has an Irish passport as being Irish

I think there has to be a distinction between those with a long defined Irish lineage, who make our home here; work and pay taxes but who through no fault of our own were born in the U.K. (but conceived here!!) - and some Johnny or Jane come lately who stays a bit; pays 2 grand and gets a cert and a passport.