Amazed by people buying new oil burners right now

celtic_oz · 02-10-2020 11:34am #1

Its as if the want to maximize their depreciation ahead of the electric avalanche

Meanwhile, SIMI said that new car registrations for the month of September raced 66.3% higher to 5,685 when compared to September 2019 when 3,418 cars were registered. September also saw a huge jump in the number of electric vehicles registered with the numbers rising by 477% to 664 compared to 115 in September last year.

90% are legacy oil burners :eek:

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2020/1001/1168707-simi-car-registration-figures/

slave1 · 02-10-2020 11:37am

Why not, EV's are costly with huge limitations to those without home charging and the pubic charging infrastructure is appalling which further impacts range

biko · 02-10-2020 1:21pm

Not everyone is drinking the EV juice yet

Silent Running · 02-10-2020 1:25pm

celtic_oz wrote: »

Its as if the want to maximize their depreciation ahead of the electric avalanche

90% are legacy oil burners :eek:

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2020/1001/1168707-simi-car-registration-figures/

Whatever about buying an EV, or not, Diesel would be my last choice if I had to buy a fossil fuelled car.

DoctorEdgeWild · 02-10-2020 1:27pm

There's no short term cheap electric cars, there are loads of cheap petrol/diesel cars.

illumin · 02-10-2020 1:27pm

Silent Running wrote: »

Whatever about buying an EV, or not, Diesel would be my last choice if I had to buy a fossil fuelled car.

If you live in rural Ireland, not near any sort of public transport... I'm afraid it makes sense to a lot of people.

Silent Running · 02-10-2020 1:29pm

illumin wrote: »

If you live in rural Ireland, not near any sort of public transport... I'm afraid it makes sense to a lot of people.

I do. It still doesn't, to me anyway.

punisher5112 · 02-10-2020 1:30pm

It's ok the greens will add €10k onto cars....

theteal · 02-10-2020 1:32pm

Ah cars are just 3yr disposable subscriptions these days (the planet is fooked), they come with a guaranteed return figure after the term is up. EVs are still properly expensive. Maybe in 3yrs they'll make more sense.

irishgeo · 02-10-2020 1:32pm

Silent Running wrote: »

I do. It still doesn't, to me anyway.

The electrical vehicle tech is changing so fast now. You could be left with a worthless electric vehicle too. That no-one wants to buy.

kanuseeme · 02-10-2020 1:34pm

100 euro on top of the road tax for diesel cars would probably sway a lot of people from diesel, and hint at it that next year will be the same.

punisher5112 · 02-10-2020 1:39pm

kanuseeme wrote: »

100 euro on top of the road tax for diesel cars would probably sway a lot of people from diesel, and hint at it that next year will be the same.

Motor tax, €100 on top of €180 or €200 chape tax won't cause much fuss.

Silent Running · 02-10-2020 1:46pm

irishgeo wrote: »

The electrical vehicle tech is changing so fast now. You could be left with a worthless electric vehicle too. That no-one wants to buy.

What tech is changing fast?

Battery tech? Nope, nothing new or revolutionary on the horizon.

Motor tech? Nope, still the same old electric motor as there ever has been.

The rest of the car is just, well, a car.

Looking forward to your information, maybe I missed something.

eagerv · 02-10-2020 1:50pm

theteal wrote: »

Ah cars are just 3yr disposable subscriptions these days (the planet is fooked), they come with a guaranteed return figure after the term is up. EVs are still properly expensive. Maybe in 3yrs they'll make more sense.

Yes true to a certain extent, but so are petrol/diesel when new.

VW are pricing the ID.3 similar enough to an auto Golf Diesel from about €33K. (Or less when series production properly starts)

But I expect the total cost of ownership of the EV to be a lot less.

Granted it will take a while for more affordable second hand higher range EVs to filter down. But a car such as the Hyundai Ioniq would suit many average mileage (Or long commute) drivers. They can be got from around €18K with full warranty of around 2 years left. Plus a long battery warranty remaining.

micks_address · 02-10-2020 1:50pm

i would have been all for a EV before covid.. my mileage was about 26k km per year... now im working for home and tracking about 6k km this year... im happy i bought petrol in February.. to get a similar size car in ev id have had to spent at least 10k more... makes no financial sense

FaganJr · 02-10-2020 1:51pm

Was going to buy a 2015 leaf last year for around 15k
Imported a 2016 Astra from for 7k cleared
Money talks
Plenty of these cars will be around for decades to come.

liamog · 02-10-2020 1:52pm

theteal wrote: »

Ah cars are just 3yr disposable subscriptions these days (the planet is fooked), they come with a guaranteed return figure after the term is up. EVs are still properly expensive. Maybe in 3yrs they'll make more sense.

You do realise that after 3 years the car is sold on to another buyer, car's aren't scrapped at the end of a PCP. If too many cars enter the market as new, the price of second hand cars will reduce due to over supply, we're still importing a large number of second hand cars from the UK, which implies there are not enough new cars sold here to service the Irish demand for second hand vehicles.

BorneTobyWilde · 02-10-2020 1:52pm

They should not be selling diesel cars in 2020, lack of education, a lot of older people will buy their diesel like they have done for past 30 years.

BorneTobyWilde · 02-10-2020 1:54pm

Small diesel cars should be banned, no need for a Golf diesel, a 1.0 tsi is faster and more refined.

FaganJr · 02-10-2020 2:04pm

Silent Running wrote:

Battery tech? Nope, nothing new or revolutionary on the horizon.

You must have missed Tesla battery day

Silent Running · 02-10-2020 2:06pm

FaganJr wrote: »

You must have missed Tesla battery day

Thanks for making my point. Tesla battery day is widely seen as more of the same, even by the Tesla fanbase.

Was there something there that I missed? Do tell.

FaganJr · 02-10-2020 2:08pm

Silent Running wrote:

Was there something there that I missed? Do tell.

I took time out of my day to watch it, there were a number of new innovations.
But I'm not here to feed you info.

Silent Running · 02-10-2020 2:11pm

FaganJr wrote: »

I took time out of my day to watch it, there were a number of new innovations.
But I'm not here to feed you info.

I'll take it that you have no info to feed me then.

There were some proposed new battery chemistry changes. But nothing that I would call revolutionary.

Battery tech will evolve. Energy density and packaging solutions will emerge. But revolution? I just don't see it.

graememk · 02-10-2020 2:12pm

illumin wrote: »

If you live in rural Ireland, not near any sort of public transport... I'm afraid it makes sense to a lot of people.

Silent Running wrote: »

I do. It still doesn't, to me anyway.

I second Silent Runnings, Rural, and do at least 320km /week, can be up to 600, Saving a fortune on Fuel costs, Priced an auto Sportage at the same time as the e-niro, wasnt a huge difference. And we've already saved the difference in fuel+tax.

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Small diesel cars should be banned, no need for a Golf diesel, a 1.0 tsi is faster and more refined.

Business's cant claim the VAT back on petrol, but thats a taxation issue

FaganJr wrote: »

You must have missed Tesla battery day

Nothing Revolutionary there, Different internal batteries, maybe denser packed. Nothing really will change on the user side.

micks_address · 02-10-2020 2:12pm

FaganJr wrote: »

I took time out of my day to watch it, there were a number of new innovations.
But I'm not here to feed you info.

i think it was mostly regarded as a let down.. followed by steep decline in tesla share price.. they are talking about a cheaper car in 3 years... nothing to write home about... a million mile battery which really means nothing... who's going to keep a car for a tenth of that...

BorneTobyWilde · 02-10-2020 2:15pm

Need to change that then so then can claim vat on petrol. Also need to make it that petrol is ALWAYS cheaper at the pumps than diesel.

FaganJr · 02-10-2020 2:16pm

Silent Running wrote:

I'll take it that you have no info to feed me then.

OK mate ðŸ‘Œ

Busman Paddy Lasty · 02-10-2020 2:20pm

Silent Running wrote: »

What tech is changing fast?

Battery tech? Nope, nothing new or revolutionary on the horizon.

Motor tech? Nope, still the same old electric motor as there ever has been.

The rest of the car is just, well, a car.

Looking forward to your information, maybe I missed something.

Don't forget your 7 year warranty.

blackbox · 02-10-2020 2:22pm

celtic_oz wrote: »

Its as if the want to maximize their depreciation ahead of the electric avalanche

90% are legacy oil burners :eek:

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2020/1001/1168707-simi-car-registration-figures/

I don't have access to the data myself, but the figure of 90% that you use must include petrol and hybrid cars, so I suspect the proportion of oil burners (diesels) is closer to 45%.

celtic_oz · 02-10-2020 3:56pm

blackbox wrote: »

I don't have access to the data myself, but the figure of 90% that you use must include petrol and hybrid cars, so I suspect the proportion of oil burners (diesels) is closer to 45%.

No as petrol is a byproduct of oil and hence is included in the class of oil burners.

Hybrids unless they are phevs get all their energy from fuel ( petrol = oil ) and thus are also oil burners ( whatever toyota say :rolleyes: )

I'll conceed phevs to round down to 85% are oil burners.

Was going to buy a 2015 leaf last year for around 15k
Imported a 2016 Astra from for 7k cleared
Money talks. Plenty of these cars will be around for decades to come.

Smart man, though this thread is about "Amazed by people buying new oil burners right now "

Why not, EV's are costly with huge limitations to those without home charging and the pubic charging infrastructure is appalling which further impacts range

Nothing new here .. just amazed people dont wait or buy second hand to limit their exposure.

Not everyone is drinking the EV juice yet

YET, indeed

Thierry12 · 02-10-2020 6:27pm

micks_address wrote: »

i would have been all for a EV before covid.. my mileage was about 26k km per year... now im working for home and tracking about 6k km this year... im happy i bought petrol in February.. to get a similar size car in ev id have had to spent at least 10k more... makes no financial sense

Very true

WFH has made a huge difference, know plenty of people that have became 1 car households now, no need for the 2nd car anymore

With WFH a €1,000 car will do me

Would love a quick EV like the ID3

Even if prices come down to €25,000 for a similar car in a few years it still won't make finacial sense for me, would just be me buying something nice for myself.

I spend about €20 a week on fuel now, i'll get a PS5 and get a copy of the new Gran Turismo to try out those cars instead :pac:

Idbatterim · 02-10-2020 7:25pm

as good as free motor tax on 99% of petrols and diesels sold, what a genius idea!

irishgeo · 03-10-2020 8:31am

Silent Running wrote: »

What tech is changing fast?

Battery tech? Nope, nothing new or revolutionary on the horizon.

Motor tech? Nope, still the same old electric motor as there ever has been.

The rest of the car is just, well, a car.

Looking forward to your information, maybe I missed something.

If the technology is so great why are they releasing new cars with better range. What's the range difference between the original leaf and a new one.

A diesel car is still cheaper and easier to run than a electric car over it lifetime. Until you can charge an electric car at a charging point in the same time it takes to fill a diesel tank. And the same amount of charging points as petrol stations exist now people won't change.

People don't want to plan their journeys with a 1hr break to charge up.

Gumbo · 03-10-2020 8:34am

irishgeo wrote: »

If the technology is so great why are they releasing new cars with better range. What's the range difference between the original leaf and a new one.

A diesel car is still cheaper and easier to run than a electric car over it lifetime. Until you can charge an electric car at a charging point in the same time it takes to fill a diesel tank. And the same amount of charging points as petrol stations exist now people won't change.

People don't want to plan their journeys with a 1hr break to charge up.

Nonsense argument by the ill informed.
You charge over night for the day ahead. You shouldn’t be relying on public charge points. They don’t need to be on every street corner.

Major routes around Ireland to facilitate cross country driving is fine.

Silly argument saying you need to fill a battery in 5 mins is just nonsense.

Del2005 · 03-10-2020 8:37am

Gumbo wrote: »

Nonsense argument by the ill informed.
You charge over night for the day ahead. You shouldn’t be relying on public charge points. They don’t need to be on every street corner.

And this is why people are still buying oil burners. Not everyone has access to home charging so nearly all the benefits of BEV are lost to them.

Gumbo · 03-10-2020 8:40am

Del2005 wrote: »

And this is why people are still buying oil burners. Not everyone has access to home charging so nearly all the benefits of BEV are lost to them.

Agree. EV’s not for everyone as mentioned on this forum hundreds of times.

graememk · 03-10-2020 8:41am

irishgeo wrote: »

If the technology is so great why are they releasing new cars with better range. What's the range difference between the original leaf and a new one.

A diesel car is still cheaper and easier to run than a electric car over it lifetime. Until you can charge an electric car at a charging point in the same time it takes to fill a diesel tank. And the same amount of charging points as petrol stations exist now people won't change.

People don't want to plan their journeys with a 1hr break to charge up.

Electric car is cheaper and easier to run. When we had 12k km done on ours we had already saved 700 odd euro on fuel costs alone, and thats at the record low covid prices for fuel never mind 1.50 a litre.

Have to charge the car every few days and the car is warm in the morning. No more visits to petrol stations!

The battery tech has come on a lot since the original leaf, which was only 24kwh, 10years ago.

Battery tech has stabilised.

Most other cars now have actively cooled/heated batteries now too with the average size now sitting around 50kwh.

Bigger cars will have bigger batteries as they arent as efficient as a small car, (also the case with ice cars!)

_Brian · 03-10-2020 8:45am

I’ll be open to changing from diesel to electric when there’s a suitable vehicle and suitable infrastructure available.

I’m doing 40k a year. Regularly towing 1.5ton behind. I make maybe 6-8 different stops a day many rural sites.

There’s currently no electric vehicle to fit my needs. When there is and it’s affordable I will change.

Currently use a 2.0 diesel Kuga when towing or a 1.6 diesel Peugeot partner when I’m not towing.

L'prof · 03-10-2020 8:47am

Gumbo wrote: »

Nonsense argument by the ill informed.
You charge over night for the day ahead. You shouldn’t be relying on public charge points. They don’t need to be on every street corner.

Major routes around Ireland to facilitate cross country driving is fine.

Silly argument saying you need to fill a battery in 5 mins is just nonsense.

What if you want to take a drive around the country staying in different places along the way where you don’t have the convenience of charging at home. You then have to spend hours upon hours at petrol stations recharging. It’s very hard for people to accept this type of change to their normal driving habits. I’m not against EV at all but limitations like this would definitely scare me off buying one in a single car household. As a 2nd car for tipping in and out of work and town it would be fine for me right now but I’m not in the market right now, nor am I ever likely to be, to buy a new/almost new secondary car

Gumbo · 03-10-2020 8:47am

_Brian wrote: »

I’ll be open to changing from diesel to electric when there’s a suitable vehicle and suitable infrastructure available.

I’m doing 40k a year. Regularly towing 1.5ton behind. I make maybe 6-8 different stops a day many rural sites.

There’s currently no electric vehicle to fit my needs. When there is and it’s affordable I will change.

Currently use a 2.0 diesel Kuga when towing or a 1.6 diesel Peugeot partner when I’m not towing.

Do you tow for 40k a year?
There’s a few EV owners on here that do well more miles per year than you in an EV.

Gumbo · 03-10-2020 8:49am

L'prof wrote: »

What if you want to take a drive around the country staying in different places along the way where you don’t have the convenience of charging at home. You then have to spend hours upon hours at petrol stations recharging. It’s very hard for people to accept this type of change to their normal driving habits. I’m not against EV at all but limitations like this would definitely scare me off buying one in a single car household. As a 2nd car for tipping in and out of work and town it would be fine for me right now but I’m not in the market right now, nor am I ever likely to be, to buy a new/almost new secondary car

Yeah loads of what if and buts.
EV’s not for everyone.

If traveling around Ireland then that’s where you need to rely on public points.
Or you charge over night at the hotel, many have destination chargers now and at worse a 3 pin plug will provide enough to get you going the next morning.

Silent Running · 03-10-2020 8:49am

irishgeo wrote: »

If the technology is so great why are they releasing new cars with better range. What's the range difference between the original leaf and a new one.

A diesel car is still cheaper and easier to run than a electric car over it lifetime. Until you can charge an electric car at a charging point in the same time it takes to fill a diesel tank. And the same amount of charging points as petrol stations exist now people won't change.

People don't want to plan their journeys with a 1hr break to charge up.

Oh dear, Where to start.

New cars have bigger batteries. Leaf, 24kWh in the original, 62kWh in the new.

A diesel car is cheaper to run over it's lifetime? Seriously? I'm going to need some kind of evidence to back this claim up. I've owned both and my experience is that your contention is rubbish.

You can't compare refuelling a fossil fuel car to an EV. For example: can you refill your diesel car at night, at home while you sleep, and for a tenth of the cost of refuelling your diesel? Can you refuel your diesel car during the day, free with solar energy? The same amount of charging stations as petrol stations isn't necessary as most cars will charge at home.

My EV will drive at least 300km of motorway before I recharge it. A rest stop at that distance is perfect for me. Eat a bit of food, use the loo and my car is ready for another 300kms. This isn't guesswork. Before Covid, I did this regularly.

I suggest you educate yourself, or you risk looking like a fool.

_Brian · 03-10-2020 9:01am

Gumbo wrote: »

Do you tow for 40k a year?
There’s a few EV owners on here that do well more miles per year than you in an EV.

No I don’t tow for all of it.
But it might be one day a week or 2 weeks of towing every day.
And I don’t have time to charge during the day.
When I’m not towing I could have 100kg or 400kg in the van.

irishgeo · 03-10-2020 9:15am

Silent Running wrote: »

Oh dear, Where to start.

New cars have bigger batteries. Leaf, 24kWh in the original, 62kWh in the new.

A diesel car is cheaper to run over it's lifetime? Seriously? I'm going to need some kind of evidence to back this claim up. I've owned both and my experience is that your contention is rubbish.

You can't compare refuelling a fossil fuel car to an EV. For example: can you refill your diesel car at night, at home while you sleep, and for a tenth of the cost of refuelling your diesel? Can you refuel your diesel car during the day, free with solar energy? The same amount of charging stations as petrol stations isn't necessary as most cars will charge at home.

My EV will drive at least 300km of motorway before I recharge it. A rest stop at that distance is perfect for me. Eat a bit of food, use the loo and my car is ready for another 300kms. This isn't guesswork. Before Covid, I did this regularly.

I suggest you educate yourself, or you risk looking like a fool.

How much was your EV?

kippy · 03-10-2020 9:20am

EVs are still far too expensive. There's less actual engineering in them I'd say and generally a lower cost manufacturing process so I'd say most of this cost is R and D. Costs have to come down either way.
There are far too few public charging points nationally. Imagine more people did get EVs, those with them now would find it even harder to find an available/working public charge point.
There's the battery side of it too. Battery tech is changing and improving. Why buy an older car with lesser range/degrading battery while there are still options?

Petrol/diesel is widely available. Second hand cars are relatively cheap. Until that changes or any of the above improve, that's gonna be the way it is.

meeeeh · 03-10-2020 9:33am

I changed my car two years ago. Any electrical car in price bracket I was prepared to spend just isn't attractive enough. So I ended with 3 years old diesel with all the mod cons and automatic gearbox. I would buy petrol but I couldn't find one with spec good enough. I'm aware ice cars are on the way out so I have no desire to buy new one. I have also no desire to buy whatever latest design abomination Hyundai or Nissan produced. Especially Nissan, they own half of French car industry and yet they must have employed someone who designs camper vans to design their cars (all of them).

Anyway no desire to get rid of my old car anytime soon and after that hopefully electric cars will get nicer at a reasonable price bracket. Environmentally keeping your car longer is probably the soundest thing to do anyway.

Icyseanfitz · 03-10-2020 9:41am

My biggest issue with EVs is the throw away nature of them, you have to buy nearly new to get the stated range etc out of them as batteries diminish with age.

murphyebass · 03-10-2020 9:42am

We run two cars both diesel. The Corolla diesel was the main car then a third child came so bought a galaxy diesel.

Now the Corolla diesel is completely unnecessary. An EV would make way more sense as it’s only used for short spins but it just doesn’t make any sense financially to change.

I’d go for an EV bus if you can show me one the same size as a galaxy..oh that’s right it doesn’t exist.

Ultimately we’re miles off a nation of EV’s.

Vittu · 03-10-2020 9:49am

If we all changed to EV cars, buses etc. These need to be charged overnight I presume for the next day. So is our electrical grid up to the task of such a demand at night for everyone. What about times when storms knock out the power for hours/days, what then? What will happen the cost of electricity, the ESB will be massive game players in the future.

Busman Paddy Lasty · 03-10-2020 10:03am

Vittu wrote: »

If we all changed to EV cars, buses etc. These need to be charged overnight I presume for the next day. So is our electrical grid up to the task of such a demand at night for everyone. What about times when storms knock out the power for hours/days, what then? What will happen the cost of electricity, the ESB will be massive game players in the future.

More knowledgeable posters than myself have discussed this before and linked to Eirgrid dashboard. Check out the 24hr consumption trend, night time can be almost half the consumption of daytime usage. Plenty of scope for night charging. It's also the time of the 24 hour day that the grid will have proportion of renewables mainly from wind.

http://smartgriddashboard.eirgrid.com/#roi/demand

Look at the demand drop off at night. When time-of-use billing comes online electricity will be cheaper again during these low demand hours.

Wildly Boaring · 03-10-2020 10:48am

Firstly I'd query the op and the nature of it.
Those buying diesel/petrol going to experience massive depreciation vs those in EVs.

But I'd agree with the posters here stating that running costs lower in EV into the future, along with other EV advantages, should lead most to buy new EV over petrol/diesel. But yet it doesn't.

Also. The thread is about new cars. Secondhand is a different discussion. Those buying 5k petrols, probably right still for their use.

Reasons for new sales to still be overwhelming diesel/petrol.
1. Familiarity. There are a cohort who won't change till they have to. They probably believe an EV will give up in the rain or that the battery will explode. Charging is an impossiblity to them.

2. Towing. Not sure how big this cohort but it's close to home. My father will buy new in the new year. It'll be diesel. He uses a trailer weekly.

3. The €30k crossover crew. This is big. Very big. What manufacturer is going to get them over. Manufacturers have spent 10 years convincing the population that they need height. In particular our most well off generation, the 50 and 60 year olds. Height for visibility, height for the dodgy hips, height for safety. There's no EV catering for them. I'd say this is 50% of the new car market.
They want to go PCP for something in the low 30s and repeat. A lot of them hardly do the mileage that a dearer EV will pay for the difference. The cheaper iD3 could catch a good lot, but gonna need to get them down to normal cars again.

4. Diesel cards. No idea how big or small a group. But I've one. There's nothing handy for my boss to get me to an EV. Much handier throw boys like me the card and we drive on.

5. Mileage. EVs in the lowest bracket. If I were getting mileage it's a secondhand diesel all the way.

6. The charging network. Seriously I worked on new petrol station builds 12 years ago. We were leaving ducts to charge points. They're still not in. The government needs to get money out now for charge points.

7. Tax. EV has the same car tax as small diesels. Was pretty obvious what happened in 2007 when the Greens went messing. Just announce new rates in new sales in 2022. 600 min on a diesel. 400 min on a petrol. Free on a new EV for 2022. Plan ahead for useage charges once diesel and petrol gone.

8. Maybe should be back at 4.
People with more than 2 kids in car seats...

Amazed by people buying new oil burners right now

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