Amazed by people buying new oil burners right now

Damien360

amadangomor wrote: »

No thanks, pass a Nissan leaf most days on the motorway and he/she is crawling along at 80kph which is ridiculous and dangerous.

I see this all over the country. Always Leaf. Not sure is it the age profile. Electric Kona and tesla drivers do normal speeds on motorway same as the vast majority. I have yet to see the same for Leaf owners.

Roger the cabin boy

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

Firstly I'd query the op and the nature of it.
Those buying diesel/petrol going to experience massive depreciation vs those in EVs.

But I'd agree with the posters here stating that running costs lower in EV into the future, along with other EV advantages, should lead most to buy new EV over petrol/diesel. But yet it doesn't.

Also. The thread is about new cars. Secondhand is a different discussion. Those buying 5k petrols, probably right still for their use.

Reasons for new sales to still be overwhelming diesel/petrol.
1. Familiarity. There are a cohort who won't change till they have to. They probably believe an EV will give up in the rain or that the battery will explode. Charging is an impossiblity to them.

2. Towing. Not sure how big this cohort but it's close to home. My father will buy new in the new year. It'll be diesel. He uses a trailer weekly.

3. The €30k crossover crew. This is big. Very big. What manufacturer is going to get them over. Manufacturers have spent 10 years convincing the population that they need height. In particular our most well off generation, the 50 and 60 year olds. Height for visibility, height for the dodgy hips, height for safety. There's no EV catering for them. I'd say this is 50% of the new car market.
They want to go PCP for something in the low 30s and repeat. A lot of them hardly do the mileage that a dearer EV will pay for the difference. The cheaper iD3 could catch a good lot, but gonna need to get them down to normal cars again.

4. Diesel cards. No idea how big or small a group. But I've one. There's nothing handy for my boss to get me to an EV. Much handier throw boys like me the card and we drive on.

5. Mileage. EVs in the lowest bracket. If I were getting mileage it's a secondhand diesel all the way.

6. The charging network. Seriously I worked on new petrol station builds 12 years ago. We were leaving ducts to charge points. They're still not in. The government needs to get money out now for charge points.

7. Tax. EV has the same car tax as small diesels. Was pretty obvious what happened in 2007 when the Greens went messing. Just announce new rates in new sales in 2022. 600 min on a diesel. 400 min on a petrol. Free on a new EV for 2022. Plan ahead for useage charges once diesel and petrol gone.

8. Maybe should be back at 4.
People with more than 2 kids in car seats...

Looking for a mid sized SUV for health reasons ATM. There really is nothing electric in that bracket.

I'll have to
be buying a used diesel Vovlo XC or Audi Q and wait for my next car cycle.

zinzan

https://www.driving.co.uk/news/energy-firms-seek-power-cut-off-electric-car-charging/

In the UK energy watchdog Ofgem is considering allowing electricity providers to cut power to electric vehicle (EV) chargers during periods of high demand.

If EV take off the way government hopes they will, no way infrastructure can keep up - EV not much us if you can't charge it when you need it - if everyone charges overnight, will that become a peak time?

cnocbui

celtic_oz wrote: »

Its as if the want to maximize their depreciation ahead of the electric avalanche

90% are legacy oil burners :eek:

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2020/1001/1168707-simi-car-registration-figures/

A far bigger issue, IMO, is why is the government maintaining it's misguided and health harming policy of a tax regime that still favours diesel over petrol? It's like someone driving up a motorway off-ramp - clearly seeing they are soon about to start driving head on into motorway traffic and deciding to not stop and turn around.

I am sure the government thinking is that they would rather potential buyers of petrol vehicles just went and bought an EV, but there are many reasons why they might not want one, such as not being able to afford it or just not wanting to sink that much money into a car. Then there are the drawbacks they might not want to put up with.

Personally, I tend to own and drive cars until they stop moving, so depreciation is never an issue.

scamalert

amadangomor wrote: »

No thanks, pass a Nissan leaf most days on the motorway and he/she is crawling along at 80kph which is ridiculous and dangerous.

+1 on that it will be prob 2050 before id consider EV, why the fck would anyone want to buy used EV that can prob still do 100km :cool:


this entire plug in every day watch your mileage speed crap is like having dying mobile phone that you need to charge daily nowadays like with every gadget.


if some can afford new i doubt they care if they run on rain forest fuel, or some mad tesla.


2/5 mins in any station will beat EVs for long time given most towns dont have proper infrastructure where 1-2 points constantly being hugged, whole home install for charge diff adapters from every diff manufacturer and time, battery degrade, nothing short of lots of wasted time.


theres plenty depreciation on eletrics once they hit 5yr mark, and way they are built its slow death creating more waste.


Not hatting EVs, but for me it seems like a lifestyle one has to adapt to owning one, instead of having plain fuel car where you dont think about any of issues that EV owners need to constantly think in advance.

nogoodnamesleft

I think people may think that EV vehicles are the messiah for transport needs are overlooking the infrastructure element. Its not just the case of putting in a large quantity of charging points and expecting them to just work.

Since the electrical network was designed and installed in an era where there was no EV vehicles and the electrical demand on residential estates was just for housing needs where the largest load per house would be the likes of the immersion heater/electric shower etc. (so the house main fuse in Ireland is sized to the service cable (single phase) feeding the house in the region of 60/80/100A).

Tesla charger can charge at 150kW. That will require three phase supply to feed it so upgrading the service cable. Then if you account for another few neighbors getting another few Testlas. The main cable feeding the housing estate may become over loaded as well as the LV distribution transformers (I believe the ESB network is 22kV/ 400V). That will come at a cost and it will grow and grow and grow. As it will become standard to start installing three phase supplies on houses as well as "balancing" those phases from the load perspective. Never mind the additional generation element required. Solar and Wind are intermittent therefore not always available so how to balance the generation with the demand of everyone in an era coming home after work and plugging in their car expecting it to charge (additional cost of fast reserve capacity (fast gas turbine). This introduces power flows and congestion of the network into the mix. Again this area was designed in an era where EVs didn't exist so more investment required to upgrade (so peoples electrical bill will increase to pay for the infrastructure to feed EVs)

It may be interesting to note that the UK has recently proposed that the electrical distribution network may disconnect consumer devices (i.e. EV) to manage the demand to prevent overloads on the network occurring.

https://www.dcusa.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/DCP-371_Last-resort-arrangements-for-Distributors-to-manage-specific-consumer-connected-devices.pdf

Obviously it would be preferential to disconnect devices such as EVs which consume large quantities of electricity first before taking thousands of houses off supply never mind vulnerable customers who may depend on electricity for medical needs (fridges for insulin, dialysis machines etc).

So the lights will stay on so to speak but your EV may have a flat battery come morning time.

amadangomor

Gumbo wrote: »

And that’s your right to make a personal choice.

80 on motorway is quite low especially if limit is 120. What motorway is it?
Not so bad on M50 when there’s 3 lanes, you can sit on the inside and the limit is 100. Maybe that person has calculated that sticking to 80 means the journey can be done without stopping for a charge. I can respect that.

My car has a rated range of 400+ but I drive it like any other car so do t need to Molly colly it at all. But again, that suits me, maybe not you.

The M4.

cnocbui

amadangomor wrote: »

Nothing to do about lack of education it's running costs. Why would someone be buying a petrol and paying 30/40% more in fuel costs.

EVs are bonkers prices. It's like the companies have added 10 grand as that is what the government is giving in incentives.

Petrol costs more because of government policy. Without government intervention, the 'natural' price of petrol is a lot less than diesel. When you refine a barrel of oil - 46% is petrol and 26% is diesel.

s8n

whats an oil burner ??

Gumbo

Damien360 wrote: »

I see this all over the country. Always Leaf. Not sure is it the age profile. Electric Kona and tesla drivers do normal speeds on motorway same as the vast majority. I have yet to see the same for Leaf owners.

Early Leaf was notorious on the motorway.
My old one done 100km once you kept to 100kmph at motorway driving. That was the benchmark when I had one.

Gumbo

Roger the cabin boy wrote: »

Looking for a mid sized SUV for health reasons ATM. There really is nothing electric in that bracket.

I'll have to
be buying a used diesel Vovlo XC or Audi Q and wait for my next car cycle.

Health reasons and diesel in the same sentence

Gumbo

amadangomor wrote: »

The M4.

Yes portions of that road is 80 but mostly 120 from memory.
Once they are in the inside lane they are not that much of a problem. The biggest issue is trucks, you should at least be keeping up with the trucks and they do 90ish I think.

cnocbui

s8n wrote: »

whats an oil burner ??

Diesel?

liamog

nogoodnamesleft wrote: »

I think people may think that EV vehicles are the messiah for transport needs are overlooking the infrastructure element. Its not just the case of putting in a large quantity of charging points and expecting them to just work.

Since the electrical network was designed and installed in an era where there was no EV vehicles and the electrical demand on residential estates was just for housing needs where the largest load per house would be the likes of the immersion heater/electric shower etc. (so the house main fuse in Ireland is sized to the service cable (single phase) feeding the house in the region of 60/80/100A).

I think you have a large misunderstanding as to the charging requirements for EVs in a domestic setting.
The power requirement for an average domestic EVSE (home charge point) is 32A, that's less than the average electric shower.
If you work out how much power is supplied during a week of charging at a 32A EVSE for 8 hours per night, applying a 90% factor due to charging losses, a car could receive approx 370kWh of electricity. That's enough to travel around 2,300km per week.
The average Irish car travels just 326km per week, meaning it really only needs to charge for 8 hours instead of 56.

Wildly Boaring

Gumbo wrote: »

Yes portions of that road is 80 but mostly 120 from memory.
Once they are in the inside lane they are not that much of a problem. The biggest issue is trucks, you should at least be keeping up with the trucks and they do 90ish I think.

Thread is about new purchases of diesel and petrol staying much ahead of EV.

The talk of 80 in a 120 is talk that would keep a fairly serious percentage well clear of EVs.

Especially when it doesn't apply to new EVs.

And if it does I'm not buying one until it doesn't

MrMusician18

celtic_oz wrote: »

No as petrol is a byproduct of oil and hence is included in the class of oil burners.

Hybrids unless they are phevs get all their energy from fuel ( petrol = oil ) and thus are also oil burners ( whatever toyota say :rolleyes: )

I'll conceed phevs to round down to 85% are oil burners.




Smart man, though this thread is about "Amazed by people buying new oil burners right now "




Nothing new here .. just amazed people dont wait or buy second hand to limit their exposure.



YET, indeed

I know you've designed this thread to get up people's noses, but EVs in Ireland are largely coal and gas burners.
Up until recently they were peat burners too.

That ivory tower of environmentalism that some EV drivers occupy isn't that sturdy.

Gumbo

nogoodnamesleft wrote: »

I think people may think that EV vehicles are the messiah for transport needs are overlooking the infrastructure element. Its not just the case of putting in a large quantity of charging points and expecting them to just work.

Since the electrical network was designed and installed in an era where there was no EV vehicles and the electrical demand on residential estates was just for housing needs where the largest load per house would be the likes of the immersion heater/electric shower etc. (so the house main fuse in Ireland is sized to the service cable (single phase) feeding the house in the region of 60/80/100A).

Tesla charger can charge at 150kW. That will require three phase supply to feed it so upgrading the service cable. Then if you account for another few neighbors getting another few Testlas. The main cable feeding the housing estate may become over loaded as well as the LV distribution transformers (I believe the ESB network is 22kV/ 400V). That will come at a cost and it will grow and grow and grow. As it will become standard to start installing three phase supplies on houses as well as "balancing" those phases from the load perspective. Never mind the additional generation element required. Solar and Wind are intermittent therefore not always available so how to balance the generation with the demand of everyone in an era coming home after work and plugging in their car expecting it to charge (additional cost of fast reserve capacity (fast gas turbine). This introduces power flows and congestion of the network into the mix. Again this area was designed in an era where EVs didn't exist so more investment required to upgrade (so peoples electrical bill will increase to pay for the infrastructure to feed EVs)

It may be interesting to note that the UK has recently proposed that the electrical distribution network may disconnect consumer devices (i.e. EV) to manage the demand to prevent overloads on the network occurring.

https://www.dcusa.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/DCP-371_Last-resort-arrangements-for-Distributors-to-manage-specific-consumer-connected-devices.pdf

Obviously it would be preferential to disconnect devices such as EVs which consume large quantities of electricity first before taking thousands of houses off supply never mind vulnerable customers who may depend on electricity for medical needs (fridges for insulin, dialysis machines etc).

So the lights will stay on so to speak but your EV may have a flat battery come morning time.

You need to go back to electricians school.

Electric shower pulls 9kw.
My Tesla pulls 7kw.

The 150kw charging your talking about are at Tesla super chargers. No domestic setting in the world will have this set up.

liamog

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

The talk of 80 in a 120 is talk that would keep a fairly serious percentage well clear of EVs.

It's a legacy Leaf thing, you don't see it with any other model of EV. I run the car at 130km/h indicated on the cruise control which is about 125km/h actual.

Gumbo

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

Thread is about new purchases of diesel and petrol staying much ahead of EV.

The talk of 80 in a 120 is talk that would keep a fairly serious percentage well clear of EVs.

Especially when it doesn't apply to new EVs.

And if it does I'm not buying one until it doesn't

This particular sub conversation is about the early leaf 24 kWh.

celtic_oz

celtic_oz wrote: »

Its as if the want to maximize their depreciation ahead of the electric avalanche



90% are legacy oil burners :eek:




https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2020/1001/1168707-simi-car-registration-figures/

How is electricity generated?

Gumbo

MrMusician18 wrote: »

I know you've designed this thread to get up people's noses, but EVs in Ireland are largely coal and gas burners.
Up until recently they were peat burners too.

That ivory tower of environmentalism that some EV drivers occupy isn't that sturdy.

Agh the aul ivory tower comment. First impressions and all that

Gumbo

Deleted User wrote: »

How is electricity generated?

How is diesel generated?



This can go round in circles all day long.

graememk

nogoodnamesleft wrote: »

Since the electrical network was designed and installed in an era where there was no EV vehicles and the electrical demand on residential estates was just for housing needs where the largest load per house would be the likes of the immersion heater/electric shower etc. (so the house main fuse in Ireland is sized to the service cable (single phase) feeding the house in the region of 60/80/100A).

The most you can charge an EV at at home is 7kW, if you have a high load such as a electric shower or heatpump you would normally fit a charge point that either has a priority switch attached to it or one that can load balance.

Heat pumps for houses are coming too, so the grid has to be prepared for that

nogoodnamesleft wrote: »

Tesla charger can charge at 150kW. That will require three phase supply to feed it so upgrading the service cable. Then if you account for another few neighbors getting another few Testlas.

Tesla can only charge at 7kw on a single phase supply. The 150kw+ is only at a DC fast charger, which would have its own supply arranged by whoever installs it. Be it Tesla,Easygo, ESB or Ionity.

Yes the UK is bringing in regulations that could allow a DNO to throttle an EV charger, but thats by consent of the customer. Sure they even have flexible tariffs there at for certain times of the day/night they pay you for the electricity you use.

Getting paid to charge your car? id be all over that

Thread is getting wildly off topic tho!, yes there isnt an EV for everyone, that will change, 2020 seen the first real choice in the EV market, With mass availability of alternatives to the leaf/Zoe/ionic, with the actual decent availability of the likes of the ENiro, Kona, E208, ECorsa, id3, Tesla m3.

There is more in the pipeline, id4, enyaq, polestar.

While these are all new, they will be second hand ones coming into the system in a few years time, Just like traditional ICE cars, Second hand cars have to bought new at some point.

The Pickup, Big SUV, Saloon ie passat, avensus etc, People Carrier, Van market still has to be addressed.

Gumbo

Gumbo wrote: »

How is diesel generated?



This can go round in circles all day long.

My point exactly. Is electric that much more eco friendly than diesel or petrol?

Black_Knight

MrMusician18 wrote: »

I know you've designed this thread to get up people's noses, but EVs in Ireland are largely coal and gas burners.
Up until recently they were peat burners too.

That ivory tower of environmentalism that some EV drivers occupy isn't that sturdy.

Is this thread about being environmental or that petrol/diesel cars make less and less sense to buy now?

I'd like to be better for the environment, but my decision to go EV was based on a few things. Cheaper to run. Wasn't doing the mileage for my old diesel. Not having to run the car in the driveway in the morning to defrost the car, with my daughter running around at exhaust height. That's about as environmental as I thought.

Ireland also provides lots of wind energy, and at night, when cars are mostly charging.

TexasTornado

kanuseeme wrote: »

100 euro on top of the road tax for diesel cars would probably sway a lot of people from diesel, and hint at it that next year will be the same.

I'll just pay the extra 100 tbh. Easier than finding crazy money for an electric car

Wildly Boaring

Gumbo wrote: »

This particular sub conversation is about the early leaf 24 kWh.

I know.
But this type of talk seeps into the discussions you get about EVs from the ill-informed.

Really it has no bearing on new purchases, except frightening of those who should be buying EV

Black_Knight

[Deleted User] wrote: »

My point exactly. Is electric that much more eco friendly than diesel or petrol?

EVs have the opportunity to charge via solar, but also wind overnight. I'm pretty sure coal/peat power stations are more efficient than a cars combustion engine.

Wildly Boaring

Black_Knight wrote: »

with my daughter running around at exhaust height.

Really stretching
She got no seat?

Black_Knight

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

Really stretching
She got no seat?

Clever.