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An argument for upgrading the Waterford-Limerick railway(or at least part of it)

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    I wasn't saying that more passengers would travel from south Tipperary to Carlow than the amount who would travel from south Tipperary to Dublin.
    I was saying that not all the passengers who would get on a train in south Tipperary would be travelling to Dublin. Dublin might be a much more popular destination than any one other intermediate town, but all the passengers who wouldn't be travelling to Dublin would add up to a significant number.

    Fair enough although I think the numbers would be low imo.

    I think this is part of the lines issues at hand with trying to offer connections to anywhere and everywhere. The service and timetable need to be kept simple and direct otherwise you lose focus on the purpose of the service in the first place as is the case now.


  • Registered Users Posts: 312 ✭✭ohographite


    IE 222 wrote: »
    The service and timetable need to be kept simple and direct otherwise you lose focus on the purpose of the service in the first place as is the case now.

    This is a very good point.
    I wouldn't agree with Waterford-Limerick junction trains connecting with Cork-Dublin trains to provide a connection to Dublin because it would mean there'd be 3 trains at Limerick junction station at the same time:*
    1 going to Dublin from Cork
    1 arriving from Waterford
    1 arriving from Limerick city.
    That would make it quite confusing for anyone changing trains.
    Almost anywhere where changing trains is done in Ireland at the moment, there are only two trains at the transfer station at a time, such as in Ballybrophy, Manulla junction and Mallow.
    It works this way in Limerick junction too, except the odd time when a Waterford train is in the station.

    You're absolutely right the current timetable and service aren't simple.
    The 4 south Tipperary towns on the Waterford-Limerick line currently have 3 trains a day to Dublin.
    2 require a 10 minute wait in Limerick junction for a connecting train
    1 requires a 1 hour wait in Waterford for a connecting train.
    Of course, to get from Waterford or the 4 south Tipperary towns to Limerick city, you need to wait in Limerick junction for 15 minutes for your connection.
    Travelling on this line is complicated unless you're just travelling from a south Tipperary town to another south Tipperary town, or to Waterford.

    A simpler to understand service for the Waterford-Limerick line would be either of the following:

    6 trains daily from Waterford to Limerick city, each departing Waterford just after a train from Dublin arrives, to create a connection there.

    6 trains daily from Waterford to Dublin via the Waterford-Limerick line, giving the 4 south Tipperary towns a direct train to Dublin.
    This option would be a problem for attracting passengers to take a train to Limerick city from Waterford or anywhere in between.
    It would need shuttle trains from Limerick junction to Limerick city to attract these passengers, and would attract less passengers than a direct train would. That's why I prefer the previous option.

    *This would also be a problem because all 3 trains would need to arrive in Limerick junction at the same time, and none could depart until all the others arrive.
    If one of these trains is delayed, all 3 will get delayed.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,337 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    This is a very good point.
    I wouldn't agree with Waterford-Limerick junction trains connecting with Cork-Dublin trains to provide a connection to Dublin because it would mean there'd be 3 trains at Limerick junction station at the same time:*
    1 going to Dublin from Cork
    1 arriving from Waterford
    1 arriving from Limerick city.
    That would make it quite confusing for anyone changing trains.
    Have you looked at the Limerick Junction-Waterford timetable at say 18.23-18.30 daily?


  • Registered Users Posts: 312 ✭✭ohographite


    dowlingm wrote: »
    Have you looked at the Limerick Junction-Waterford timetable at say 18.23-18.30 daily?

    I have.
    I have even been in Limerick junction at that time, waiting for a connecting train(I was travelling from Waterford to Cork).
    Between 18:23 and 18:30 the Waterford to Limerick junction train is at Limerick junction.
    During this time, a train from Limerick city arrives, a train from Cork to Dublin arrives and departs, a train from Dublin to Cork arrives and departs, and then a train to Limerick city departs.

    I don't mean to be rude, but I do not understand your point.
    Is it that there are already times where there are 3 trains in Limerick junction at the same time?
    If so, I accept that there are staff around who can guide you to your train, and that there is a voice announcement which tells you where each train goes.
    It's still less confusing if there are only 2 trains in the station at the same time, compared to when there are 3.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 367 ✭✭ExoPolitic


    I have.
    I have even been in Limerick junction at that time, waiting for a connecting train(I was travelling from Waterford to Cork).
    Between 18:23 and 18:30 the Waterford to Limerick junction train is at Limerick junction.
    During this time, a train from Limerick city arrives, a train from Cork to Dublin arrives and departs, a train from Dublin to Cork arrives and departs, and then a train to Limerick city departs.

    I don't mean to be rude, but I do not understand your point.
    Is it that there are already times where there are 3 trains in Limerick junction at the same time?
    If so, I accept that there are staff around who can guide you to your train, and that there is a voice announcement which tells you where each train goes.
    It's still less confusing if there are only 2 trains in the station at the same time, compared to when there are 3.

    God forbid you go to Heuston station.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    Time was when 4 trains used to meet at Limerick Junction with no difficulties.


  • Registered Users Posts: 312 ✭✭ohographite


    ExoPolitic wrote: »
    God forbid you go to Heuston station.

    The less you have to figure out what platform your train is on, the more convenient a train journey is.

    Trains are not required to arrive and depart Heuston station at the same time. A Cork to Dublin train and a Waterford to Limerick city train are required to arrive and depart Limerick junction at the same time to provide a connection. Then a train from Limerick city also has to arrive at the same time to provide a connection.
    All 3 of those trains need to be timed to arrive at Limerick junction at the same time if their journey times are to be kept at a minimum.
    This means if one train is delayed, they all get delayed.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,483 ✭✭✭Curb Your Enthusiasm


    There's not even platform displays at Limerick Junction. I don't think having 3 trains in one station at the same time is the biggest of its problems. IE are the pits..


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,337 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    Del.Monte wrote: »
    Time was when 4 trains used to meet at Limerick Junction with no difficulties.
    weren’t the Limerick and Waterford services double berthing before the elevator construction? Now that the new Cork bound platform is in place it should be easy enough to have 4 trains again, no? But without a platform of its own and with having to cross the diamond, the Waterford train will doubtless continue to be first in, last out


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  • Registered Users Posts: 312 ✭✭ohographite


    dowlingm wrote: »
    weren’t the Limerick and Waterford services double berthing before the elevator construction? Now that the new Cork bound platform is in place it should be easy enough to have 4 trains again, no? But without a platform of its own and with having to cross the diamond, the Waterford train will doubtless continue to be first in, last out

    And that's why there needs to be a new platform somewhere in Limerick junction which the trains to and from Waterford can use.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    This is a very good point.
    I wouldn't agree with Waterford-Limerick junction trains connecting with Cork-Dublin trains to provide a connection to Dublin because it would mean there'd be 3 trains at Limerick junction station at the same time:*
    1 going to Dublin from Cork
    1 arriving from Waterford
    1 arriving from Limerick city.
    That would make it quite confusing for anyone changing trains.
    Almost anywhere where changing trains is done in Ireland at the moment, there are only two trains at the transfer station at a time, such as in Ballybrophy, Manulla junction and Mallow.
    It works this way in Limerick junction too, except the odd time when a Waterford train is in the station.

    You're absolutely right the current timetable and service aren't simple.
    The 4 south Tipperary towns on the Waterford-Limerick line currently have 3 trains a day to Dublin.
    2 require a 10 minute wait in Limerick junction for a connecting train
    1 requires a 1 hour wait in Waterford for a connecting train.
    Of course, to get from Waterford or the 4 south Tipperary towns to Limerick city, you need to wait in Limerick junction for 15 minutes for your connection.
    Travelling on this line is complicated unless you're just travelling from a south Tipperary town to another south Tipperary town, or to Waterford.

    A simpler to understand service for the Waterford-Limerick line would be either of the following:

    6 trains daily from Waterford to Limerick city, each departing Waterford just after a train from Dublin arrives, to create a connection there.

    6 trains daily from Waterford to Dublin via the Waterford-Limerick line, giving the 4 south Tipperary towns a direct train to Dublin.
    This option would be a problem for attracting passengers to take a train to Limerick city from Waterford or anywhere in between.
    It would need shuttle trains from Limerick junction to Limerick city to attract these passengers, and would attract less passengers than a direct train would. That's why I prefer the previous option.

    *This would also be a problem because all 3 trains would need to arrive in Limerick junction at the same time, and none could depart until all the others arrive.
    If one of these trains is delayed, all 3 will get delayed.


    Again I think solely focussing connections at one end is not going to improve things, I can't see passengers in Tipp or Cahir willing to travel to Dublin via Waterford. The primary operation of the line is Waterford - Limerick. A Dublin offering is only a secondary need. The line needs to work off offering services that best suit the needs of commuters between Waterford and Limerick and build connections in that way rather than working around arrival times at LJ or Waterford.

    Without major upgrade works at LJ I don't think numbers to Dublin or elsewhere for that matter are going to see any notable gains.

    With the current infrastructure I think the best offering would be 4 Limerick - Waterford services and 2 Waterford - Clonmel peak services worked between 2 sets. To make the service more attractive I believe the peak trains to and from Limerick should skip the Junction. Both Waterford and LJ should see 2 connections with Dublin services.


  • Registered Users Posts: 312 ✭✭ohographite


    IE 222 wrote: »
    Again I think solely focussing connections at one end is not going to improve things, I can't see passengers in Tipp or Cahir willing to travel to Dublin via Waterford. The primary operation of the line is Waterford - Limerick. A Dublin offering is only a secondary need. The line needs to work off offering services that best suit the needs of commuters between Waterford and Limerick and build connections in that way rather than working around arrival times at LJ or Waterford.

    Without major upgrade works at LJ I don't think numbers to Dublin or elsewhere for that matter are going to see any notable gains.

    With the current infrastructure I think the best offering would be 4 Limerick - Waterford services and 2 Waterford - Clonmel peak services worked between 2 sets. To make the service more attractive I believe the peak trains to and from Limerick should skip the Junction. Both Waterford and LJ should see 2 connections with Dublin services.

    I think it's important for the line to be used to provide Waterford to Limerick city direct trains, but also to provide a decent train service from the 4 south Tipperary towns to Dublin.
    Both are equally as important, in my opinion.
    A train service to Dublin works well for Sligo, so it can work well for Clonmel too, considering it's a town similar in size to Sligo.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,795 ✭✭✭Isambard


    at a guess I would think that loadings Limerick to Waterford would at best be around the same as Limerick to Galway loadings. Thus bringing good Dublin connections or direct trains into the mix seems a good idea to me.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    I think it's important for the line to be used to provide Waterford to Limerick city direct trains, but also to provide a decent train service from the 4 south Tipperary towns to Dublin.
    Both are equally as important, in my opinion.
    A train service to Dublin works well for Sligo, so it can work well for Clonmel too, considering it's a town similar in size to Sligo.

    Sligo has poor road infrastructure for the best part. Clonmel has Waterford, Limerick and Cork within its reach while it's just as quick to get to Dublin than anywhere else from Sligo for the likes of university's, major hospitals ect. I don't believe Clonmel will ever warrant the level of service Sligo does.

    Connection times at LJ or backwards travel to Waterford makes onwards travel to Dublin less attractive than what a direct Dublin - Clonmel would offer and for that reason I don't think connections to Dublin should prioritise and dictate service requirements between Limerick and Waterford. I've no doubt if the infrastructure was in place at LJ such a service would work well.


  • Registered Users Posts: 312 ✭✭ohographite


    IE 222 wrote: »
    Sligo has poor road infrastructure for the best part. Clonmel has Waterford, Limerick and Cork within its reach while it's just as quick to get to Dublin than anywhere else from Sligo for the likes of university's, major hospitals ect. I don't believe Clonmel will ever warrant the level of service Sligo does.

    The number of passengers travelling from it to Dublin may be limited by Clonmel's proximity to Limerick and Waterford, but this doesn't matter since it can have trains to Limerick and Waterford too. Clonmel train station could potentially be almost as busy as Sligo station, but it would just have less passengers travelling to Dublin than Sligo does, which there is nothing wrong with.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 312 ✭✭ohographite


    Isambard wrote: »
    at a guess I would think that loadings Limerick to Waterford would at best be around the same as Limerick to Galway loadings. Thus bringing good Dublin connections or direct trains into the mix seems a good idea to me.

    I am controversially glad that Limerick and Galway became connected by railway, but I still think that the Waterford-Limerick line needs to have decent Dublin connections, as I bet it would put plenty more passengers on the trains.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    The number of passengers travelling from it to Dublin may be limited by Clonmel's proximity to Limerick and Waterford, but this doesn't matter since it can have trains to Limerick and Waterford too. Clonmel train station could potentially be almost as busy as Sligo station, but it would just have less passengers travelling to Dublin than Sligo does, which there is nothing wrong with.


    Well the fact your operating the line to purposely meet Dublin services either end will hinder the lines potential. The low lying fruit is regional commuters into Waterford and Limerick.

    It's a very limited line with 1 passing loop and a IE have very limited fleet capacity. The train can't compete with the bus via connections. I agree connections to Dublin should remain but not to the point that they are dictating the timetable. A peak connection each end is more than adequate for the level of demand.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,795 ✭✭✭Isambard


    I am controversially glad that Limerick and Galway became connected by railway, but I still think that the Waterford-Limerick line needs to have decent Dublin connections, as I bet it would put plenty more passengers on the trains.

    that's what I said


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,795 ✭✭✭Isambard


    IE 222 wrote: »
    Well the fact your operating the line to purposely meet Dublin services either end will hinder the lines potential. The low lying fruit is regional commuters into Waterford and Limerick.

    It's a very limited line with 1 passing loop and a IE have very limited fleet capacity. The train can't compete with the bus via connections. I agree connections to Dublin should remain but not to the point that they are dictating the timetable. A peak connection each end is more than adequate for the level of demand.

    Limerick maybe but roads are very good to Waterford (on that route) now so I'm doubtful how many regional commuters could be gained particularly given the location of the station in Waterford.


  • Registered Users Posts: 312 ✭✭ohographite


    IE 222 wrote: »
    Well the fact your operating the line to purposely meet Dublin services either end will hinder the lines potential. The low lying fruit is regional commuters into Waterford and Limerick.

    It's a very limited line with 1 passing loop and a IE have very limited fleet capacity. The train can't compete with the bus via connections. I agree connections to Dublin should remain but not to the point that they are dictating the timetable. A peak connection each end is more than adequate for the level of demand.

    It's reasonable to aim for more than one train a day from Dublin to the 4 south Tipperary towns.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,795 ✭✭✭Isambard


    It's reasonable to aim for more than one train a day from Dublin to the 4 south Tipperary towns.

    they're all pretty sizeable towns for that area and it does lead you to think a Clonmel/Cahir/Tipperary direct train to Dublin ought to attract passengers.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    Isambard wrote: »
    Limerick maybe but roads are very good to Waterford (on that route) now so I'm doubtful how many regional commuters could be gained particularly given the location of the station in Waterford.

    My point from the beginning was completely based on the new station been built in Waterford. I think any improvements should come in line with its opening as it's set to be a major destination for the South East in general. With offices and shopping all been located in the one location it should attract enough day trippers and commuters to justify a investment in local services.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    It's reasonable to aim for more than one train a day from Dublin to the 4 south Tipperary towns.

    Yeah I'm suggesting 2. Ideally 1 in Waterford and 1 in LJ along with an evening connection in both.


  • Registered Users Posts: 312 ✭✭ohographite


    IE 222 wrote: »
    Yeah I'm suggesting 2. Ideally 1 in Waterford and 1 in LJ along with an evening connection in both.

    Apologies for misunderstanding your point.

    Is your suggestion the following?:
    run 2 direct trains from Waterford to Limerick, each connecting with Dublin-Waterford trains and Cork-Dublin trains
    run 2 direct trains from Limerick to Waterford, each connecting with Dublin-Cork trains and Waterford-Dublin trains.

    Is that what you suggested?
    I'm not sure if I understand.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,795 ✭✭✭Isambard


    of course a direct Limerick to Cork stopping train would be good, and if you can do that, why not Waterford to Cork direct, perhaps with two units splitting/joining at the Junction.

    Or is providing a good service that doesn't involve Dublin anathema to IE?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,337 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    Isambard wrote: »
    of course a direct Limerick to Cork stopping train would be good, and if you can do that, why not Waterford to Cork direct, perhaps with two units splitting/joining at the Junction.

    Or is providing a good service that doesn't involve Dublin anathema to IE?
    Because in a best case scenario the train would take 50 PERCENT longer than the 40 bus?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,306 ✭✭✭bobbyy gee




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,795 ✭✭✭Isambard


    dowlingm wrote: »
    Because in a best case scenario the train would take 50 PERCENT longer than the 40 bus?

    express buses just got kicked into touch, so probably no longer the case. IN any case the 40 doesn't serve the intermediate decent size towns being discussed.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,172 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Isambard wrote: »
    express buses just got kicked into touch, so probably no longer the case. IN any case the 40 doesn't serve the intermediate decent size towns being discussed.

    A very specific subset of Expressway services that don't cover this area have been suggested as being on the chopping block in an obvious attempt to get more state funding.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,795 ✭✭✭Isambard


    L1011 wrote: »
    A very specific subset of Expressway services that don't cover this area have been suggested as being on the chopping block in an obvious attempt to get more state funding.

    indeed but we're discussing a train service specifically to benefit the intermediate towns


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    Apologies for misunderstanding your point.

    Is your suggestion the following?:
    run 2 direct trains from Waterford to Limerick, each connecting with Dublin-Waterford trains and Cork-Dublin trains
    run 2 direct trains from Limerick to Waterford, each connecting with Dublin-Cork trains and Waterford-Dublin trains.

    Is that what you suggested?
    I'm not sure if I understand.

    No, it would be next to impossible to schedule such a timetable. Also, it would require a major overhaul for most of the Hueston side to implement. 1 delay knocks 3 - 4 trains out of schedule.

    Realistically I'm talking 1 early am connection and a late morning- midday connect to Dublin and 2 evening connections from Dublin. If a Waterford - Limerick departure meets an arrival from Dublin, fine, but I wouldn't be drastically altering the timetable to do so otherwise your back were your started with unsuitable timings and connections been offered.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    Isambard wrote: »
    of course a direct Limerick to Cork stopping train would be good, and if you can do that, why not Waterford to Cork direct, perhaps with two units splitting/joining at the Junction.

    Or is providing a good service that doesn't involve Dublin anathema to IE?

    What benefit would this offer. It would still require all the reversals ect at the jct. It would be just as quick connecting.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,795 ✭✭✭Isambard


    through trains with no changes are much more attractive to passengers. we're talking of reviving a moribund line and improving the service.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,337 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    Isambard wrote: »
    through trains with no changes are much more attractive to passengers. we're talking of reviving a moribund line and improving the service.
    this line doesn’t even have Sunday service and you want direct service to Cork via south Tipp. That’s dreaming in technicolor in earnest. The train should be about fast service or bulk service or both. This is spending tens of millions to make a small number of rail enthusiasts happy, rather than on Sunday service and increased frequency


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    dowlingm wrote: »
    this line doesn’t even have Sunday service and you want direct service to Cork via south Tipp. That’s dreaming in technicolor in earnest. The train should be about fast service or bulk service or both. This is spending tens of millions to make a small number of rail enthusiasts happy, rather than on Sunday service and increased frequency

    Also any investment to that magnitude would be for direct services to Dublin not Cork.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,795 ✭✭✭Isambard


    Clonmel to Dublin would be first in line of course . I read somewhere that Clonmel is amongst the largest inland towns in Ireland.


  • Registered Users Posts: 312 ✭✭ohographite


    If and when the DART+ is completed, some trains will be made available to use elsewhere on the rail network, so hopefully a few of them can be dedicated to the Waterford-Limerick line to make the service more frequent.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    If and when the DART+ is completed, some trains will be made available to use elsewhere on the rail network, so hopefully a few of them can be dedicated to the Waterford-Limerick line to make the service more frequent.

    You'll also have the 41 additional ICR cars. That will free up more sets by reducing the number of doubling up. Between that and DART, regional and Intercity services will undoubtedly improve and expand.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,795 ✭✭✭Isambard


    you have to wonder how the network became so short of stock.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,172 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    An inability to hold Alstom and GM to account for poor quality kit + a love of the cutters torch


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    Isambard wrote: »
    you have to wonder how the network became so short of stock.

    The only shortage is in Dublin commuter stock.

    What was the poor quality GM stock.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,795 ✭✭✭Isambard


    IE 222 wrote: »
    The only shortage is in Dublin commuter stock.

    What was the poor quality GM stock.

    shortage of stock is often trotted out as the reason for bustitution on the line in question


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 438 ✭✭andrewfaulk


    How about:

    The lack of rolling stock orders in the 2010s with a few small exceptions, coupled with unexpected growth in passenger numbers.. Both of which are issues for the NTA


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    Isambard wrote: »
    shortage of stock is often trotted out as the reason for bustitution on the line in question

    That's going to happen from time to time. In general its only a Dublin shortage.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,785 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Isambard wrote: »
    shortage of stock is often trotted out as the reason for bustitution on the line in question

    Thats not true. Its no drivers usually or major works.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,172 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    IE 222 wrote: »
    The only shortage is in Dublin commuter stock.

    What was the poor quality GM stock.

    There's a shortage of everything.

    The 201s were not fit for purpose and exceptionally unreliable in certain use cases which they were bought for. Much of the fleet sits up never to work again either through unsuitability or failures.

    The Dutch have shown what you do with something as bad as the 2700s or 8200s - send it back. The V250s were taken out of service and dumped back to AnsaledoBreda.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    L1011 wrote: »
    There's a shortage of everything.

    The 201s were not fit for purpose and exceptionally unreliable in certain use cases which they were bought for. Much of the fleet sits up never to work again either through unsuitability or failures.

    The Dutch have shown what you do with something as bad as the 2700s or 8200s - send it back. The V250s were taken out of service and dumped back to AnsaledoBreda.

    And it all relates back to a shortage of Dublin commuter stock. In fairness to IE they've been requesting this Dart order since the 00s.

    Doesn't mean the 201s were poor quality. They were too big and heavy and overkill for what they needed to do. The HEP was it's only real problem and that's more a short coming on IE than GM. There not designed for running at max power continuously. Part of the fleet has been made redundant for preference of a push pull fleet. Only 10 have been officially withdrawn. There still a good few years left in them and enough work to keep them going.

    Reading up on the v250 it's not surprising they sent them back. They were riddled with problems from day 1 and the regulator suspended them from operating after just a month in service. I'm not sure when IE started having serious issues with the Alstom stock but it would be difficult to return something after 5-10 years service. Was there a particular reason given as to why the 2700 and 8200 where purchased from Alstom. Everything else at the time was Japanese and they were incompatible with that stock.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,151 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    L1011 wrote: »
    There's a shortage of everything.

    The 201s were not fit for purpose and exceptionally unreliable in certain use cases which they were bought for. Much of the fleet sits up never to work again either through unsuitability or failures.

    The Dutch have shown what you do with something as bad as the 2700s or 8200s - send it back. The V250s were taken out of service and dumped back to AnsaledoBreda.

    The Intercity situation will be addressed by the arrival of the 41 intermediate cars for the ICRs - that will allow for most of the currently doubled up sets to become separate trains.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,172 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    IE 222 wrote: »
    Doesn't mean the 201s were poor quality. They were too big and heavy and overkill for what they needed to do. The HEP was it's only real problem and that's more a short coming on IE than GM. There not designed for running at max power continuously. Part of the fleet has been made redundant for preference of a push pull fleet. Only 10 have been officially withdrawn. There still a good few years left in them and enough work to keep them going.

    Reading up on the v250 it's not surprising they sent them back. They were riddled with problems from day 1 and the regulator suspended them from operating after just a month in service. I'm not sure when IE started having serious issues with the Alstom stock but it would be difficult to return something after 5-10 years service. Was there a particular reason given as to why the 2700 and 8200 where purchased from Alstom. Everything else at the time was Japanese and they were incompatible with that stock.

    Something being unfit for the purpose it was sold/bought means it is poor quality; also GM sold them as HEP capable. They were a bad purchase and should have been fired back at GM as the wrong product - GM didn't have to offer them.

    The 2700s at least were troublesome from day one. There was a LOT of warranty work done on them and it didn't fix everything.

    Tendering rules explain purchases. I believe the 8200s are compatible with the other kit for multiple working.
    LXFlyer wrote: »
    The Intercity situation will be addressed by the arrival of the 41 intermediate cars for the ICRs - that will allow for most of the currently doubled up sets to become separate trains.

    The demands on the extra sets created are going to come from all over the system though - its a start, of course, but I would expect everything to be as stressed as usual very quickly.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    L1011 wrote: »
    Something being unfit for the purpose it was sold/bought means it is poor quality; also GM sold them as HEP capable. They were a bad purchase and should have been fired back at GM as the wrong product - GM didn't have to offer them.

    The 2700s at least were troublesome from day one. There was a LOT of warranty work done on them and it didn't fix everything.

    Tendering rules explain purchases. I believe the 8200s are compatible with the other kit for multiple working.



    The demands on the extra sets created are going to come from all over the system though - its a start, of course, but I would expect everything to be as stressed as usual very quickly.

    No it doesn't, it means it was bad buying. Unless you have the full details between IE and GM we don't know what promises GM offered in terms of HEP been successful long term. It worked but just wasn't sustainable on top continuous of max power running. IE didn't have to buy them either.

    I don't know much about the 2700s in there early days but accept they weren't great performers overall. Maybe they offered a better deal on the 8200s as a result of it.

    Your right, I think 8200s could but only with the 8500/10s and a number of the 8100s could form a 6 car with the 8500 fleet.


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