An argument for upgrading the Waterford-Limerick railway(or at least part of it)

IE 222

ohographite wrote: »

This is a very good point.
I wouldn't agree with Waterford-Limerick junction trains connecting with Cork-Dublin trains to provide a connection to Dublin because it would mean there'd be 3 trains at Limerick junction station at the same time:*
1 going to Dublin from Cork
1 arriving from Waterford
1 arriving from Limerick city.
That would make it quite confusing for anyone changing trains.
Almost anywhere where changing trains is done in Ireland at the moment, there are only two trains at the transfer station at a time, such as in Ballybrophy, Manulla junction and Mallow.
It works this way in Limerick junction too, except the odd time when a Waterford train is in the station.

You're absolutely right the current timetable and service aren't simple.
The 4 south Tipperary towns on the Waterford-Limerick line currently have 3 trains a day to Dublin.
2 require a 10 minute wait in Limerick junction for a connecting train
1 requires a 1 hour wait in Waterford for a connecting train.
Of course, to get from Waterford or the 4 south Tipperary towns to Limerick city, you need to wait in Limerick junction for 15 minutes for your connection.
Travelling on this line is complicated unless you're just travelling from a south Tipperary town to another south Tipperary town, or to Waterford.

A simpler to understand service for the Waterford-Limerick line would be either of the following:

6 trains daily from Waterford to Limerick city, each departing Waterford just after a train from Dublin arrives, to create a connection there.

6 trains daily from Waterford to Dublin via the Waterford-Limerick line, giving the 4 south Tipperary towns a direct train to Dublin.
This option would be a problem for attracting passengers to take a train to Limerick city from Waterford or anywhere in between.
It would need shuttle trains from Limerick junction to Limerick city to attract these passengers, and would attract less passengers than a direct train would. That's why I prefer the previous option.

*This would also be a problem because all 3 trains would need to arrive in Limerick junction at the same time, and none could depart until all the others arrive.
If one of these trains is delayed, all 3 will get delayed.

Again I think solely focussing connections at one end is not going to improve things, I can't see passengers in Tipp or Cahir willing to travel to Dublin via Waterford. The primary operation of the line is Waterford - Limerick. A Dublin offering is only a secondary need. The line needs to work off offering services that best suit the needs of commuters between Waterford and Limerick and build connections in that way rather than working around arrival times at LJ or Waterford.

Without major upgrade works at LJ I don't think numbers to Dublin or elsewhere for that matter are going to see any notable gains.

With the current infrastructure I think the best offering would be 4 Limerick - Waterford services and 2 Waterford - Clonmel peak services worked between 2 sets. To make the service more attractive I believe the peak trains to and from Limerick should skip the Junction. Both Waterford and LJ should see 2 connections with Dublin services.

ohographite

IE 222 wrote: »

Again I think solely focussing connections at one end is not going to improve things, I can't see passengers in Tipp or Cahir willing to travel to Dublin via Waterford. The primary operation of the line is Waterford - Limerick. A Dublin offering is only a secondary need. The line needs to work off offering services that best suit the needs of commuters between Waterford and Limerick and build connections in that way rather than working around arrival times at LJ or Waterford.

Without major upgrade works at LJ I don't think numbers to Dublin or elsewhere for that matter are going to see any notable gains.

With the current infrastructure I think the best offering would be 4 Limerick - Waterford services and 2 Waterford - Clonmel peak services worked between 2 sets. To make the service more attractive I believe the peak trains to and from Limerick should skip the Junction. Both Waterford and LJ should see 2 connections with Dublin services.

I think it's important for the line to be used to provide Waterford to Limerick city direct trains, but also to provide a decent train service from the 4 south Tipperary towns to Dublin.
Both are equally as important, in my opinion.
A train service to Dublin works well for Sligo, so it can work well for Clonmel too, considering it's a town similar in size to Sligo.

Isambard

at a guess I would think that loadings Limerick to Waterford would at best be around the same as Limerick to Galway loadings. Thus bringing good Dublin connections or direct trains into the mix seems a good idea to me.

IE 222

ohographite wrote: »

I think it's important for the line to be used to provide Waterford to Limerick city direct trains, but also to provide a decent train service from the 4 south Tipperary towns to Dublin.
Both are equally as important, in my opinion.
A train service to Dublin works well for Sligo, so it can work well for Clonmel too, considering it's a town similar in size to Sligo.

Sligo has poor road infrastructure for the best part. Clonmel has Waterford, Limerick and Cork within its reach while it's just as quick to get to Dublin than anywhere else from Sligo for the likes of university's, major hospitals ect. I don't believe Clonmel will ever warrant the level of service Sligo does.

Connection times at LJ or backwards travel to Waterford makes onwards travel to Dublin less attractive than what a direct Dublin - Clonmel would offer and for that reason I don't think connections to Dublin should prioritise and dictate service requirements between Limerick and Waterford. I've no doubt if the infrastructure was in place at LJ such a service would work well.

ohographite

IE 222 wrote: »

Sligo has poor road infrastructure for the best part. Clonmel has Waterford, Limerick and Cork within its reach while it's just as quick to get to Dublin than anywhere else from Sligo for the likes of university's, major hospitals ect. I don't believe Clonmel will ever warrant the level of service Sligo does.

The number of passengers travelling from it to Dublin may be limited by Clonmel's proximity to Limerick and Waterford, but this doesn't matter since it can have trains to Limerick and Waterford too. Clonmel train station could potentially be almost as busy as Sligo station, but it would just have less passengers travelling to Dublin than Sligo does, which there is nothing wrong with.

ohographite

Isambard wrote: »

at a guess I would think that loadings Limerick to Waterford would at best be around the same as Limerick to Galway loadings. Thus bringing good Dublin connections or direct trains into the mix seems a good idea to me.

I am controversially glad that Limerick and Galway became connected by railway, but I still think that the Waterford-Limerick line needs to have decent Dublin connections, as I bet it would put plenty more passengers on the trains.

IE 222

ohographite wrote: »

The number of passengers travelling from it to Dublin may be limited by Clonmel's proximity to Limerick and Waterford, but this doesn't matter since it can have trains to Limerick and Waterford too. Clonmel train station could potentially be almost as busy as Sligo station, but it would just have less passengers travelling to Dublin than Sligo does, which there is nothing wrong with.

Well the fact your operating the line to purposely meet Dublin services either end will hinder the lines potential. The low lying fruit is regional commuters into Waterford and Limerick.

It's a very limited line with 1 passing loop and a IE have very limited fleet capacity. The train can't compete with the bus via connections. I agree connections to Dublin should remain but not to the point that they are dictating the timetable. A peak connection each end is more than adequate for the level of demand.

Isambard

ohographite wrote: »

I am controversially glad that Limerick and Galway became connected by railway, but I still think that the Waterford-Limerick line needs to have decent Dublin connections, as I bet it would put plenty more passengers on the trains.

that's what I said

Isambard

IE 222 wrote: »

Well the fact your operating the line to purposely meet Dublin services either end will hinder the lines potential. The low lying fruit is regional commuters into Waterford and Limerick.

It's a very limited line with 1 passing loop and a IE have very limited fleet capacity. The train can't compete with the bus via connections. I agree connections to Dublin should remain but not to the point that they are dictating the timetable. A peak connection each end is more than adequate for the level of demand.

Limerick maybe but roads are very good to Waterford (on that route) now so I'm doubtful how many regional commuters could be gained particularly given the location of the station in Waterford.

ohographite

IE 222 wrote: »

Well the fact your operating the line to purposely meet Dublin services either end will hinder the lines potential. The low lying fruit is regional commuters into Waterford and Limerick.

It's a very limited line with 1 passing loop and a IE have very limited fleet capacity. The train can't compete with the bus via connections. I agree connections to Dublin should remain but not to the point that they are dictating the timetable. A peak connection each end is more than adequate for the level of demand.

It's reasonable to aim for more than one train a day from Dublin to the 4 south Tipperary towns.

Isambard

ohographite wrote: »

It's reasonable to aim for more than one train a day from Dublin to the 4 south Tipperary towns.

they're all pretty sizeable towns for that area and it does lead you to think a Clonmel/Cahir/Tipperary direct train to Dublin ought to attract passengers.

IE 222

Isambard wrote: »

Limerick maybe but roads are very good to Waterford (on that route) now so I'm doubtful how many regional commuters could be gained particularly given the location of the station in Waterford.

My point from the beginning was completely based on the new station been built in Waterford. I think any improvements should come in line with its opening as it's set to be a major destination for the South East in general. With offices and shopping all been located in the one location it should attract enough day trippers and commuters to justify a investment in local services.

IE 222

ohographite wrote: »

It's reasonable to aim for more than one train a day from Dublin to the 4 south Tipperary towns.

Yeah I'm suggesting 2. Ideally 1 in Waterford and 1 in LJ along with an evening connection in both.

ohographite

IE 222 wrote: »

Yeah I'm suggesting 2. Ideally 1 in Waterford and 1 in LJ along with an evening connection in both.

Apologies for misunderstanding your point.

Is your suggestion the following?:
run 2 direct trains from Waterford to Limerick, each connecting with Dublin-Waterford trains and Cork-Dublin trains
run 2 direct trains from Limerick to Waterford, each connecting with Dublin-Cork trains and Waterford-Dublin trains.

Is that what you suggested?
I'm not sure if I understand.

Isambard

of course a direct Limerick to Cork stopping train would be good, and if you can do that, why not Waterford to Cork direct, perhaps with two units splitting/joining at the Junction.

Or is providing a good service that doesn't involve Dublin anathema to IE?

dowlingm

Isambard wrote: »

of course a direct Limerick to Cork stopping train would be good, and if you can do that, why not Waterford to Cork direct, perhaps with two units splitting/joining at the Junction.

Or is providing a good service that doesn't involve Dublin anathema to IE?

Because in a best case scenario the train would take 50 PERCENT longer than the 40 bus?

bobbyy gee

Limerick to Dublin

https://www.limerickpost.ie/2020/02/12/rail-journey-numbers-at-record-high-for-2019/

Isambard

dowlingm wrote: »

Because in a best case scenario the train would take 50 PERCENT longer than the 40 bus?

express buses just got kicked into touch, so probably no longer the case. IN any case the 40 doesn't serve the intermediate decent size towns being discussed.

L1011

Isambard wrote: »

express buses just got kicked into touch, so probably no longer the case. IN any case the 40 doesn't serve the intermediate decent size towns being discussed.

A very specific subset of Expressway services that don't cover this area have been suggested as being on the chopping block in an obvious attempt to get more state funding.

Isambard

L1011 wrote: »

A very specific subset of Expressway services that don't cover this area have been suggested as being on the chopping block in an obvious attempt to get more state funding.

indeed but we're discussing a train service specifically to benefit the intermediate towns

IE 222

ohographite wrote: »

Apologies for misunderstanding your point.

Is your suggestion the following?:
run 2 direct trains from Waterford to Limerick, each connecting with Dublin-Waterford trains and Cork-Dublin trains
run 2 direct trains from Limerick to Waterford, each connecting with Dublin-Cork trains and Waterford-Dublin trains.

Is that what you suggested?
I'm not sure if I understand.

No, it would be next to impossible to schedule such a timetable. Also, it would require a major overhaul for most of the Hueston side to implement. 1 delay knocks 3 - 4 trains out of schedule.

Realistically I'm talking 1 early am connection and a late morning- midday connect to Dublin and 2 evening connections from Dublin. If a Waterford - Limerick departure meets an arrival from Dublin, fine, but I wouldn't be drastically altering the timetable to do so otherwise your back were your started with unsuitable timings and connections been offered.

IE 222

Isambard wrote: »

of course a direct Limerick to Cork stopping train would be good, and if you can do that, why not Waterford to Cork direct, perhaps with two units splitting/joining at the Junction.

Or is providing a good service that doesn't involve Dublin anathema to IE?

What benefit would this offer. It would still require all the reversals ect at the jct. It would be just as quick connecting.

Isambard

through trains with no changes are much more attractive to passengers. we're talking of reviving a moribund line and improving the service.

dowlingm

Isambard wrote: »

through trains with no changes are much more attractive to passengers. we're talking of reviving a moribund line and improving the service.

this line doesn’t even have Sunday service and you want direct service to Cork via south Tipp. That’s dreaming in technicolor in earnest. The train should be about fast service or bulk service or both. This is spending tens of millions to make a small number of rail enthusiasts happy, rather than on Sunday service and increased frequency

IE 222

dowlingm wrote: »

this line doesn’t even have Sunday service and you want direct service to Cork via south Tipp. That’s dreaming in technicolor in earnest. The train should be about fast service or bulk service or both. This is spending tens of millions to make a small number of rail enthusiasts happy, rather than on Sunday service and increased frequency

Also any investment to that magnitude would be for direct services to Dublin not Cork.

Isambard

Clonmel to Dublin would be first in line of course . I read somewhere that Clonmel is amongst the largest inland towns in Ireland.

ohographite

If and when the DART+ is completed, some trains will be made available to use elsewhere on the rail network, so hopefully a few of them can be dedicated to the Waterford-Limerick line to make the service more frequent.

IE 222

ohographite wrote: »

If and when the DART+ is completed, some trains will be made available to use elsewhere on the rail network, so hopefully a few of them can be dedicated to the Waterford-Limerick line to make the service more frequent.

You'll also have the 41 additional ICR cars. That will free up more sets by reducing the number of doubling up. Between that and DART, regional and Intercity services will undoubtedly improve and expand.

Isambard

you have to wonder how the network became so short of stock.

L1011

An inability to hold Alstom and GM to account for poor quality kit + a love of the cutters torch