An argument for upgrading the Waterford-Limerick railway(or at least part of it)

ohographite

IE 222 wrote: »

Yeah but not all of them. I don't think the line needs more than 3/4 full services a day with peak runs to and from Clonmel.

They should focus on connecting with the 7:50 ex Waterford and the 17:35 ex Dublin and a arrival/departure at LJ set around the Cork and Limerick services between 7:50-8:05am. Skip the junction if they want to run services onto Limerick that will knock 25 mins or so of the journey time.

I would agree with this. This would essentially create a train service from Dublin to South Tipperary via Waterford. It would also connect South Tipperary with a bigger population along the way than a train service which went via Limerick Junction, which is an advantage.
Dublin-South Tipp via Waterford would serve Thomastown, Kilkenny, Muine Beag, Carlow, Athy, Kildare(combined population c. 70,000)
Contrastly, Dublin-South Tipp via Limerick Junction would serve Thurles, Templemore, Portlaoise(combined population c. 30,000).
It would be slower to get from Dublin to south Tipperary via Waterford than via Limerick Junction, but that can be helped by changing how the some of the trains serve Kilkenny.
The Dublin-Waterford trains fed by Limerick-Waterford trains could bypass Kilkenny itself but a transfer station(a bit like Manulla Junction in Mayo)could be built where a shuttle train could transfer passengers to Kilkenny.
I wouldn't call for all Dublin-Waterford trains to bypass Kilkenny, only the ones fed by Limerick-Waterford trains.
Kilkenny could even get a few additional trains from Dublin to compensate for the lack of some direct trains.
Obviously all of this Kilkenny stuff would need more vehicles, which Irish Rail is short of, so it can't happen until Irish Rail gets more vehicles to use.

loyatemu

dowlingm wrote: »

Belview does containers. Bulk is done at Waterford Port. Could that line take ore trains without a bridge strengthening campaign?

their website suggests Bulk and Containers are both at Belview:
http://www.portofwaterford.com/facilities-and-quays/port-facilities

IE 222

ohographite wrote: »

I would agree with this. This would essentially create a train service from Dublin to South Tipperary via Waterford. It would also connect South Tipperary with a bigger population along the way than a train service which went via Limerick Junction, which is an advantage.
Dublin-South Tipp via Waterford would serve Thomastown, Kilkenny, Muine Beag, Carlow, Athy, Kildare(combined population c. 70,000)
Contrastly, Dublin-South Tipp via Limerick Junction would serve Thurles, Templemore, Portlaoise(combined population c. 30,000).
It would be slower to get from Dublin to south Tipperary via Waterford than via Limerick Junction, but that can be helped by changing how the some of the trains serve Kilkenny.
The Dublin-Waterford trains fed by Limerick-Waterford trains could bypass Kilkenny itself but a transfer station(a bit like Manulla Junction in Mayo)could be built where a shuttle train could transfer passengers to Kilkenny.
I wouldn't call for all Dublin-Waterford trains to bypass Kilkenny, only the ones fed by Limerick-Waterford trains.
Kilkenny could even get a few additional trains from Dublin to compensate for the lack of some direct trains.
Obviously all of this Kilkenny stuff would need more vehicles, which Irish Rail is short of, so it can't happen until Irish Rail gets more vehicles to use.

Yeah, personally I wouldn't be getting too bogged down with intermediate towns. It's not clear with the published data as to where exactly anyones final destination using the service as a connection is. The difference of offering a Dublin connection at either end could be the difference of 3 hours travelling time for some users not necessarily additional links. It's just a low cost short - medium term plan.

Ultimately i think the long term plan should split the line into 2 operations with Clonmel been the divider and becoming a terminal station with basing sets overnight there. It would require upgrades at LJ with a extension from the new platform and points for direct access to Dublin. A new platform is not essential but would still allow for connections between services to Dublin, Cork & Limerick and knock 30-35 mins off a Limerick service. Westbound from Clonmel could opertate 2 daily direct intercity services to both Dublin & Limerick and connect with a eastbound a bi-hourly regional/commuter Clonmel - Waterford service with new stations at Piltown/Fiddown and Kilsheelan provided the new transport hub and centre attracts a major increase in footfall.

andrewfaulk

loyatemu wrote: »

their website suggests Bulk and Containers are both at Belview:
http://www.portofwaterford.com/facilities-and-quays/port-facilities

It does but Belview is a tidal river port, so has limited depth alongside the quay wall. This limits the size of the vessels that can be used, to relatively small(in bulk terms) vessels, which are less economic to operate..

Foynes is a deep water port, with no such limitations. It regularly handles large ocean going bulk vessels including inbound bauxite/ore carriers to Aughinish alumina, large vessels of coal to Moneypoint and bulk carriers bringing in animal feeds from South America.. Furthermore, these vessels would be available for the mine operator to reload with their ore for export, allowing them to get even cheaper shipping

andrewfaulk

IE 222 wrote: »

There was talk of a Derry flow as well wasn't there?

What volume would be coming out of Ennis?

Is there a reason why direct access was never sought from the beginning. Even cutting out a spur probably would of paid for itself by now.

Seen as they would likely need to build or source more if extra flows where to be gained, they could look at redesigning and shortening the "log cages" to fit 42 flats so they can be lifted onto trailers as well.

I think Derry was proposed to move timber from Donegal.. Donegal being where some of the timber that used to move via Sligo originated from.. Think it may be moving by sea via Port of Derry at the moment instead

East clare and South Galway would have enough forestry to support a train a week from Ennis.. But on a shorter haul, the economics probably don't stack up with road moves at both ends.. But if the plant had a siding, you would remove the cost in Waterford of the transhipment and drastically improve the economics.. There was a plan for a siding from the New Ross Line to the plant, i think a railway order may have been in prepartion but it didn't go ahead..

On wagons, I think there is about 30 62ft flats.. Should be enough to run 2 sets of 14 wagons if the CME can be convinced to surrender up a few wagons

IE 222

andrewfaulk wrote: »

I think Derry was proposed to move timber from Donegal.. Donegal being where some of the timber that used to move via Sligo originated from.. Think it may be moving by sea via Port of Derry at the moment instead

East clare and South Galway would have enough forestry to support a train a week from Ennis.. But on a shorter haul, the economics probably don't stack up with road moves at both ends.. But if the plant had a siding, you would remove the cost in Waterford of the transhipment and drastically improve the economics.. There was a plan for a siding from the New Ross Line to the plant, i think a railway order may have been in prepartion but it didn't go ahead..

On wagons, I think there is about 30 62ft flats.. Should be enough to run 2 sets of 14 wagons if the CME can be convinced to surrender up a few wagons

I wonder if IE could increase the train length to 18 wagons would it be viable for them to run the current Mayo timbers via WRC and Limerick-Waterford lines. It probably wouldn't be worth the hassle with the extra run arounds and added time shunting in Ennis ect.

I do think a LO/LO cage would help reduce costs at both ends and open up more flows. It's an industry the government are getting behind and investing in so maybe it wouldn't be too far fetched to request funding for the transportation of the logs.

It definitely warrants some sort of investment anyway. Another option could be storing logs in the port and bringing them on site as required. If they are bringing logs in by sea they'd already have a way of bringing them from the port.

Rootsblower

IE 222 wrote: »

I wonder if IE could increase the train length to 18 wagons would it be viable for them to run the current Mayo timbers via WRC and Limerick-Waterford lines. It probably wouldn't be worth the hassle with the extra run arounds and added time shunting in Ennis ect.

I do think a LO/LO cage would help reduce costs at both ends and open up more flows. It's an industry the government are getting behind and investing in so maybe it wouldn't be too far fetched to request funding for the transportation of the logs.

It definitely warrants some sort of investment anyway. Another option could be storing logs in the port and bringing them on site as required. If they are bringing logs in by sea they'd already have a way of bringing them from the port.

The logs from Derry I believe are unloaded at Rosslare and trucked the rest of the way.

Hard to believe the economics of that stack up but who knows!!!!

IE 222

Rootsblower wrote: »

The logs from Derry I believe are unloaded at Rosslare and trucked the rest of the way.

Hard to believe the economics of that stack up but who knows!!!!

Now that you mention it I've seen logs stacked up in Rosslare before, would never of expected them to be from Derry. Would be a very odd way of doing it. Wouldn't of thought chartering a ship would be cheap. The Derry line runs through the port as well.

Maybe Brexit will bring Sligo back into play.

loyatemu

Rootsblower wrote: »

The logs from Derry I believe are unloaded at Rosslare and trucked the rest of the way.

the rest of the way to where?

Rootsblower

loyatemu wrote: »

the rest of the way to where?

Timber factory in Belview

esposito

On a side note - how is there no rail freight to/from Rosslare port. Really think this should be addressed

Del.Monte

esposito wrote: »

On a side note - how is there no rail freight to/from Rosslare port. Really think this should be addressed

There's no rail freight on most of the Irish railway system so why should Rosslare be a special case?

IE 222

esposito wrote: »

On a side note - how is there no rail freight to/from Rosslare port. Really think this should be addressed

It's a RO/RO port. Even if IE had the ability to transport trailers I doubt there would be much business to be had. The high number and close proximity of ports here also doesn't help rail freight.

Jamie2k9

IE 222 wrote: »

There was talk of a Derry flow as well wasn't there?

What volume would be coming out of Ennis?

Is there a reason why direct access was never sought from the beginning. Even cutting out a spur probably would of paid for itself by now.

Seen as they would likely need to build or source more if extra flows where to be gained, they could look at redesigning and shortening the "log cages" to fit 42 flats so they can be lifted onto trailers as well.

Well I guess its a new operation and both sides didn't know if it would work. Open to correction but after the timber started they stopped for a while as IE doubled fees but returned again and has been going continuously since.

Anyone know who unloads in Waterford, is it IE staff or the company themselves. If its IE then I guess there is no incentive for the company look at a direct link as its included in the fess already though they do have the lorry cost but its probably relatively low cost to them. On the other side IE have no incentive to invest in the direct link if they can't get extra money from the operation.

ohographite

IE 222 wrote: »

Yeah, personally I wouldn't be getting too bogged down with intermediate towns. It's not clear with the published data as to where exactly anyones final destination using the service as a connection is. The difference of offering a Dublin connection at either end could be the difference of 3 hours travelling time for some users not necessarily additional links. It's just a low cost short - medium term plan.

Ultimately i think the long term plan should split the line into 2 operations with Clonmel been the divider and becoming a terminal station with basing sets overnight there. It would require upgrades at LJ with a extension from the new platform and points for direct access to Dublin. A new platform is not essential but would still allow for connections between services to Dublin, Cork & Limerick and knock 30-35 mins off a Limerick service. Westbound from Clonmel could opertate 2 daily direct intercity services to both Dublin & Limerick and connect with a eastbound a bi-hourly regional/commuter Clonmel - Waterford service with new stations at Piltown/Fiddown and Kilsheelan provided the new transport hub and centre attracts a major increase in footfall.

I think the combined population of all intermediate towns is something to consider to a certain extent. If there is a decent train service set up from Dublin to South Tipperary via Waterford, I'd say that a significant chunk of the passengers using it to get to/from South Tipperary would be using it to get to/from an intermediate town, such as Carlow.
If a direct train ran from Dublin to Clonmel via Waterford, and stopped only at Carrick-on-Suir and Waterford along the way, it would probably be used by less people than a train which took the same route and stopped in more towns in between.

I think it's also reasonable for Clonmel to get more than 2 trains daily to Dublin.
It's OK if some of them require a change of trains as long as changing trains is quick, and doesn't require waiting more than 5 minutes in the transfer station. I think 6 trains daily from Clonmel to Dublin would be a reasonable ask, as that's still less than the 7 trains daily Sligo has to Dublin.

dowlingm

loyatemu wrote: »

their website suggests Bulk and Containers are both at Belview:
http://www.portofwaterford.com/facilities-and-quays/port-facilities

Thanks for that - was relying on my recollection of an old study of Waterford/New Ross/Belview which is clearly no longer current

IE 222

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Well I guess its a new operation and both sides didn't know if it would work. Open to correction but after the timber started they stopped for a while as IE doubled fees but returned again and has been going continuously since.

Anyone know who unloads in Waterford, is it IE staff or the company themselves. If its IE then I guess there is no incentive for the company look at a direct link as its included in the fess already though they do have the lorry cost but its probably relatively low cost to them. On the other side IE have no incentive to invest in the direct link if they can't get extra money from the operation.

Yeah I can understand not making large investments at the beginning but still begs the question as to why Sally Park over Belview. Secondly the contract must of been revised/renewed many times over with both sides having a fair indication as to the long term viability of the operation and other potential runs. Surely it's been known what the life cycle of such flows is going to be early on. Its wouldn't make much business sense to be renewing contracts regularly.

IE 222

ohographite wrote: »

I think the combined population of all intermediate towns is something to consider to a certain extent. If there is a decent train service set up from Dublin to South Tipperary via Waterford, I'd say that a significant chunk of the passengers using it to get to/from South Tipperary would be using it to get to/from an intermediate town, such as Carlow.
If a direct train ran from Dublin to Clonmel via Waterford, and stopped only at Carrick-on-Suir and Waterford along the way, it would probably be used by less people than a train which took the same route and stopped in more towns in between.

I think it's also reasonable for Clonmel to get more than 2 trains daily to Dublin.
It's OK if some of them require a change of trains as long as changing trains is quick, and doesn't require waiting more than 5 minutes in the transfer station. I think 6 trains daily from Clonmel to Dublin would be a reasonable ask, as that's still less than the 7 trains daily Sligo has to Dublin.

Yeah but don't forget to factor in the journey to Waterford also. The bus will prove to be quicker with shorter direct hops, we could talking up to an hour in the difference between bus and train. The lack of bus and trains services currently linking such towns would suggest demand is low to none. I can't see Carlow having a bigger preference than Dublin. A connection at Waterford is solely for a speedier connection to Dublin for people east of Clonmel. Any other gains is just coincidental benefit.

andrewfaulk

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Well I guess its a new operation and both sides didn't know if it would work. Open to correction but after the timber started they stopped for a while as IE doubled fees but returned again and has been going continuously since.

Anyone know who unloads in Waterford, is it IE staff or the company themselves. If its IE then I guess there is no incentive for the company look at a direct link as its included in the fess already though they do have the lorry cost but its probably relatively low cost to them. On the other side IE have no incentive to invest in the direct link if they can't get extra money from the operation.

Kilcroney haulage under contract to Coillte.. IE only provide a railhead/railhead service

ohographite

IE 222 wrote: »

Yeah but don't forget to factor in the journey to Waterford also. The bus will prove to be quicker with shorter direct hops, we could talking up to an hour in the difference between bus and train. The lack of bus and trains services currently linking such towns would suggest demand is low to none. I can't see Carlow having a bigger preference than Dublin. A connection at Waterford is solely for a speedier connection to Dublin for people east of Clonmel. Any other gains is just coincidental benefit.

I wasn't saying that more passengers would travel from south Tipperary to Carlow than the amount who would travel from south Tipperary to Dublin.
I was saying that not all the passengers who would get on a train in south Tipperary would be travelling to Dublin. Dublin might be a much more popular destination than any one other intermediate town, but all the passengers who wouldn't be travelling to Dublin would add up to a significant number.

IE 222

ohographite wrote: »

I wasn't saying that more passengers would travel from south Tipperary to Carlow than the amount who would travel from south Tipperary to Dublin.
I was saying that not all the passengers who would get on a train in south Tipperary would be travelling to Dublin. Dublin might be a much more popular destination than any one other intermediate town, but all the passengers who wouldn't be travelling to Dublin would add up to a significant number.

Fair enough although I think the numbers would be low imo.

I think this is part of the lines issues at hand with trying to offer connections to anywhere and everywhere. The service and timetable need to be kept simple and direct otherwise you lose focus on the purpose of the service in the first place as is the case now.

ohographite

IE 222 wrote: »

The service and timetable need to be kept simple and direct otherwise you lose focus on the purpose of the service in the first place as is the case now.

This is a very good point.
I wouldn't agree with Waterford-Limerick junction trains connecting with Cork-Dublin trains to provide a connection to Dublin because it would mean there'd be 3 trains at Limerick junction station at the same time:*
1 going to Dublin from Cork
1 arriving from Waterford
1 arriving from Limerick city.
That would make it quite confusing for anyone changing trains.
Almost anywhere where changing trains is done in Ireland at the moment, there are only two trains at the transfer station at a time, such as in Ballybrophy, Manulla junction and Mallow.
It works this way in Limerick junction too, except the odd time when a Waterford train is in the station.

You're absolutely right the current timetable and service aren't simple.
The 4 south Tipperary towns on the Waterford-Limerick line currently have 3 trains a day to Dublin.
2 require a 10 minute wait in Limerick junction for a connecting train
1 requires a 1 hour wait in Waterford for a connecting train.
Of course, to get from Waterford or the 4 south Tipperary towns to Limerick city, you need to wait in Limerick junction for 15 minutes for your connection.
Travelling on this line is complicated unless you're just travelling from a south Tipperary town to another south Tipperary town, or to Waterford.

A simpler to understand service for the Waterford-Limerick line would be either of the following:

6 trains daily from Waterford to Limerick city, each departing Waterford just after a train from Dublin arrives, to create a connection there.

6 trains daily from Waterford to Dublin via the Waterford-Limerick line, giving the 4 south Tipperary towns a direct train to Dublin.
This option would be a problem for attracting passengers to take a train to Limerick city from Waterford or anywhere in between.
It would need shuttle trains from Limerick junction to Limerick city to attract these passengers, and would attract less passengers than a direct train would. That's why I prefer the previous option.

*This would also be a problem because all 3 trains would need to arrive in Limerick junction at the same time, and none could depart until all the others arrive.
If one of these trains is delayed, all 3 will get delayed.

dowlingm

ohographite wrote: »

This is a very good point.
I wouldn't agree with Waterford-Limerick junction trains connecting with Cork-Dublin trains to provide a connection to Dublin because it would mean there'd be 3 trains at Limerick junction station at the same time:*
1 going to Dublin from Cork
1 arriving from Waterford
1 arriving from Limerick city.
That would make it quite confusing for anyone changing trains.

Have you looked at the Limerick Junction-Waterford timetable at say 18.23-18.30 daily?

ohographite

dowlingm wrote: »

Have you looked at the Limerick Junction-Waterford timetable at say 18.23-18.30 daily?

I have.
I have even been in Limerick junction at that time, waiting for a connecting train(I was travelling from Waterford to Cork).
Between 18:23 and 18:30 the Waterford to Limerick junction train is at Limerick junction.
During this time, a train from Limerick city arrives, a train from Cork to Dublin arrives and departs, a train from Dublin to Cork arrives and departs, and then a train to Limerick city departs.

I don't mean to be rude, but I do not understand your point.
Is it that there are already times where there are 3 trains in Limerick junction at the same time?
If so, I accept that there are staff around who can guide you to your train, and that there is a voice announcement which tells you where each train goes.
It's still less confusing if there are only 2 trains in the station at the same time, compared to when there are 3.

ExoPolitic

ohographite wrote: »

I have.
I have even been in Limerick junction at that time, waiting for a connecting train(I was travelling from Waterford to Cork).
Between 18:23 and 18:30 the Waterford to Limerick junction train is at Limerick junction.
During this time, a train from Limerick city arrives, a train from Cork to Dublin arrives and departs, a train from Dublin to Cork arrives and departs, and then a train to Limerick city departs.

I don't mean to be rude, but I do not understand your point.
Is it that there are already times where there are 3 trains in Limerick junction at the same time?
If so, I accept that there are staff around who can guide you to your train, and that there is a voice announcement which tells you where each train goes.
It's still less confusing if there are only 2 trains in the station at the same time, compared to when there are 3.

God forbid you go to Heuston station.

Del.Monte

Time was when 4 trains used to meet at Limerick Junction with no difficulties.

ohographite

ExoPolitic wrote: »

God forbid you go to Heuston station.

The less you have to figure out what platform your train is on, the more convenient a train journey is.

Trains are not required to arrive and depart Heuston station at the same time. A Cork to Dublin train and a Waterford to Limerick city train are required to arrive and depart Limerick junction at the same time to provide a connection. Then a train from Limerick city also has to arrive at the same time to provide a connection.
All 3 of those trains need to be timed to arrive at Limerick junction at the same time if their journey times are to be kept at a minimum.
This means if one train is delayed, they all get delayed.

Curb Your Enthusiasm

There's not even platform displays at Limerick Junction. I don't think having 3 trains in one station at the same time is the biggest of its problems. IE are the pits..

dowlingm

Del.Monte wrote: »

Time was when 4 trains used to meet at Limerick Junction with no difficulties.

weren’t the Limerick and Waterford services double berthing before the elevator construction? Now that the new Cork bound platform is in place it should be easy enough to have 4 trains again, no? But without a platform of its own and with having to cross the diamond, the Waterford train will doubtless continue to be first in, last out

ohographite

dowlingm wrote: »

weren’t the Limerick and Waterford services double berthing before the elevator construction? Now that the new Cork bound platform is in place it should be easy enough to have 4 trains again, no? But without a platform of its own and with having to cross the diamond, the Waterford train will doubtless continue to be first in, last out

And that's why there needs to be a new platform somewhere in Limerick junction which the trains to and from Waterford can use.