An argument for upgrading the Waterford-Limerick railway(or at least part of it)

ohographite

I have theory as to how the service on the railway has become so poor.
If I'm not mistaken, it was chiefly a freight line until 2006 when the sugar beet industry ended in Ireland, and had been chiefly a freight line for decades since, since a time when passenger train services were poor everywhere on the network compared to what they are now. It seems to me that this meant passenger services were just ran on this line as a bonus during the years when freight trains ran on it.
Then there was a bit of an effort to improve the passenger service in 2006 when the freight trains stopped running, but it didn't attract a significant number of passengers. I think there were three reasons for this:
1. The timetable didn't allow people to commute to work.
2. It was only in operation until 2010(I think) so it wasn't given much time to attract a significant number of passengers, and other new train services in Ireland (Cork-Midleton and Limerick-Galway) have had growing passenger numbers years after their introduction.
3. Most of the time it was in operation was during a recession when there were less people at work and when people had less money to travel for recreational purposes, and if the service was downgraded in 2010 when I think it was, that means it was downgraded before the recession ended.

IE 222

Isambard wrote: »

Loops where?

Reinstate the loops at Cahir and Carrick.

esposito

ohographite wrote: »

I have theory as to how the service on the railway has become so poor.
If I'm not mistaken, it was chiefly a freight line until 2006 when the sugar beet industry ended in Ireland, and had been chiefly a freight line for decades since, since a time when passenger train services were poor everywhere on the network compared to what they are now. It seems to me that this meant passenger services were just ran on this line as a bonus during the years when freight trains ran on it.
Then there was a bit of an effort to improve the passenger service in 2006 when the freight trains stopped running, but it didn't attract a significant number of passengers. I think there were three reasons for this:
1. The timetable didn't allow people to commute to work.
2. It was only in operation until 2010(I think) so it wasn't given much time to attract a significant number of passengers, and other new train services in Ireland (Cork-Midleton and Limerick-Galway) have had growing passenger numbers years after their introduction.
3. Most of the time it was in operation was during a recession when there were less people at work and when people had less money to travel for recreational purposes, and if the service was downgraded in 2010 when I think it was, that means it was downgraded before the recession ended.

Correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t there still freight running on this line?

Del.Monte

esposito wrote: »

Correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t there still freight running on this line?

No freight.

IE 222

ohographite wrote: »

I have theory as to how the service on the railway has become so poor.
If I'm not mistaken, it was chiefly a freight line until 2006 when the sugar beet industry ended in Ireland, and had been chiefly a freight line for decades since, since a time when passenger train services were poor everywhere on the network compared to what they are now. It seems to me that this meant passenger services were just ran on this line as a bonus during the years when freight trains ran on it.
Then there was a bit of an effort to improve the passenger service in 2006 when the freight trains stopped running, but it didn't attract a significant number of passengers. I think there were three reasons for this:
1. The timetable didn't allow people to commute to work.
2. It was only in operation until 2010(I think) so it wasn't given much time to attract a significant number of passengers, and other new train services in Ireland (Cork-Midleton and Limerick-Galway) have had growing passenger numbers years after their introduction.
3. Most of the time it was in operation was during a recession when there were less people at work and when people had less money to travel for recreational purposes, and if the service was downgraded in 2010 when I think it was, that means it was downgraded before the recession ended.

I think the improvement in services was related to the introduction of DMUs rather than a reduction in freight. The problem with passenger services is that its solely focused on connections and low frequency.

There is definitely an opportunity to redevelop the line and service in the coming years but the will to do it needs to be there along with funding. There is a number of combinations that could come together to make drastic improvements. The new station and the 29000 fleet been freed up should allow IE offer a more enhanced and attractive service. I'm not sure if the current automated equipment can be reused or if it would deliver a significant saving to make it worthwhile but Dart+ upgrades could possibly allow for an affordable upgrade to full automation.

esposito

IE 222 wrote: »

I think the improvement in services was related to the introduction of DMUs rather than a reduction in freight. The problem with passenger services is that its solely focused on connections and low frequency.

There is definitely an opportunity to redevelop the line and service in the coming years but the will to do it needs to be there along with funding. There is a number of combinations that could come together to make drastic improvements. The new station and the 29000 fleet been freed up should allow IE offer a more enhanced and attractive service. I'm not sure if the current automated equipment can be reused or if it would deliver a significant saving to make it worthwhile but Dart+ upgrades could possibly allow for an affordable upgrade to full automation.

Personally I do not like the 29000 railcar. I find them very noisy inside. This would be a step backwards if they were to be deployed on this line. More 22000 intercity style trains would be desirable.

Why do you want full automation. What we need here is extra trains, attractive times and an increased frequency to 4 trains per day. let’s be realistic - it’s not going to be more than that.

IE 222

esposito wrote: »

Personally I do not like the 29000 railcar. I find them very noisy inside. This would be a step backwards if they were to be deployed on this line. More 22000 intercity style trains would be desirable.

Why do you want full automation. What we need here is extra trains, attractive times and an increased frequency to 4 trains per day. let’s be realistic - it’s not going to be more than that.

29000s been freed up doesn't necessarily mean they'll be deployed but it means IE will be in a position to add extra sets. I would suspect they'd want to keep it ICR and rotate / supplement stock with Dublin - Waterford services.

My comment doesn't indicate I want full automation. What I said was, if it's possible and provides a significant reduction in upgrading costs it would be wise to reuse the equipment been made redundant from Dart+ project. It would massively reduce the lines operating costs and will help remove speed restrictions and possibly even allow for speed increases in parts.

L1011

The released automated gates from DART+ would be a drop in the ocean of what's needed and wouldn't save that much, but anything salvageable will be reused - just look at the life of track panels already.

Planning, power, labour and a data install for the CCTV (assuming there is Irish Rail Telecoms fibre along the line, I don't know if there is) is still going to add up to quite a bit.

IE 222

L1011 wrote: »

The released automated gates from DART+ would be a drop in the ocean of what's needed and wouldn't save that much, but anything salvageable will be reused - just look at the life of track panels already.

Planning, power, labour and a data install for the CCTV (assuming there is Irish Rail Telecoms fibre along the line, I don't know if there is) is still going to add up to quite a bit.

There's only about 10 crossings on the line. User crossings ect would need to remain or be closed were possible. If taking on such a project a couple of the easier ones would just be closed or replaced with a bridge.

I'm not suggesting they'll get it done for a couple of €million but if it meant saving 30-40% verses the cost of buying everything in for it it would be a worthwhile investment.

L1011

30% would be excessively optimistic. Ashtown and Clonsilla are manual so there are only four sets of kit going to begin with.

IE 222

L1011 wrote: »

30% would be excessively optimistic. Ashtown and Clonsilla are manual so there are only four sets of kit going to begin with.

Well I'm talking the DART project as a whole and assuming that IE are successful in closing crossings. There should be 9 automated crossings at least with the Lansdowne - Merrion crossings and more if they plan on closing the ones at Bray and on Howth branch but I'd suspect they may leave them in place.

30%, depends what's reusable and what's been renewed. I'd suspect they'll replace every bit of equipment and cabling regardless of its age. I would think most of the work could be done in house as well which will avoid large labour costs.

tabbey

IE 222 wrote: »

But it's never going to have a level of frequency that requires double tracking, it's only 60 miles long as well. Look at Galway, Sligo and Waterford they all manage high enough frequency with single lines and loops. The loop at Clonmel can offer a bi-hourly service currently if a second set was placed on the route. Loops at Cahir and Carrick give enough capacity to pretty much run an hourly service.

Not merely the lines mentioned, but Belfast to Derry has an hourly service (+extras in peaks), on a line which is single apart from the first six miles.

ohographite

I think if a few trains are dedicated to the Waterford-Limerick line, they should be 2 or 3 carriage sets, or a bit of both. The passengers who would potentially use an improved service on the line would probably be able to comfortably fit into trains of that length, and if the trains were any longer than that it would mean the line would do nothing to help solve the climate crisis.

IE 222

ohographite wrote: »

I think if a few trains are dedicated to the Waterford-Limerick line, they should be 2 or 3 carriage sets, or a bit of both. The passengers who would potentially use an improved service on the line would probably be able to comfortably fit into trains of that length, and if the trains were any longer than that it would mean the line would do nothing to help solve the climate crisis.

Well putting "a few trains" onto the line along with all that extra steel and concrete for the double tracking you were suggesting won't solve the climate crisis either. A pair of 29000s or 4 car ICRs running a frequency level that matches demand is a lot more efficient than running empty trains every 30-60 mins. A better service will increase demand but let's keep it realistic and accept the fact the line will be doing well to see anywhere near 300 daily users.

ohographite

IE 222 wrote: »

Well putting "a few trains" onto the line along with all that extra steel and concrete for the double tracking you were suggesting won't solve the climate crisis either. A pair of 29000s or 4 car ICRs running a frequency level that matches demand is a lot more efficient than running empty trains every 30-60 mins. A better service will increase demand but let's keep it realistic and accept the fact the line will be doing well to see anywhere near 300 daily users.

I never suggested running trains every 30-60 minutes. I would ask for a frequency of 6 trains a day. I think that's a reasonable ask.

IE 222

ohographite wrote: »

I never suggested running trains every 30-60 minutes. I would ask for a frequency of 6 trains a day. I think that's a reasonable ask.

Then why the talk of double track sections and a few sets been dedicated to the line.

2 sets running a bi-hourly service would cover 6 trains a day. You won't need a few trains or any double tracking to do it.

ohographite

IE 222 wrote: »

Well putting "a few trains" onto the line along with all that extra steel and concrete for the double tracking you were suggesting won't solve the climate crisis either. A pair of 29000s or 4 car ICRs running a frequency level that matches demand is a lot more efficient than running empty trains every 30-60 mins. A better service will increase demand but let's keep it realistic and accept the fact the line will be doing well to see anywhere near 300 daily users.

I do not feel that it's too optimistic to estimate that the Waterford-Limerick line would have about 600 passengers a day if it had the following service:

6 trains daily each way, with 1 train each way going from Clonmel to Dublin direct, and the other 5 going from Limerick city to Waterford direct.
Of the 5 direct Limerick city to Waterford direct
trains, 4 should connect with Dublin trains in either Limerick junction or Waterford.
There should also be trains on this line that reach Dublin, Limerick and Waterford in time for the start of the working day(around 8:30am), and trains which leave them after the end of the working day(around 5:30pm).


This is how I made the estimate:
Combined number of passengers travelling from Limerick to Waterford, and from the towns of south Tipperary to Limerick and Waterford = about 30 people on average per train(marginally less than the passengers using the western rail corridor between Ennis and athenry).
With 5 trains a day for these passengers, that makes 300 passengers a day.

Then, the number of passengers travelling from the towns of south Tipperary to Dublin would be another 30 per train.
With 4 trains a day for these passengers requiring a change at Waterford or Limerick junction, and 1 train a day running direct to Dublin, that makes another 300 passengers a day, bringing my total estimate to 600 passengers a day.

I really don't feel that I'm being too optimistic here.

IE 222

ohographite wrote: »

I do not feel that it's too optimistic to estimate that the Waterford-Limerick line would have about 600 passengers a day if it had the following service:

6 trains daily each way, with 1 train each way going from Clonmel to Dublin direct, and the other 5 going from Limerick city to Waterford direct.
Of the 5 direct Limerick city to Waterford direct
trains, 4 should connect with Dublin trains in either Limerick junction or Waterford.
There should also be trains on this line that reach Dublin, Limerick and Waterford in time for the start of the working day(around 8:30am), and trains which leave them after the end of the working day(around 5:30pm).


This is how I made the estimate:
Combined number of passengers travelling from Limerick to Waterford, and from the towns of south Tipperary to Limerick and Waterford = about 30 people on average per train(marginally less than the passengers using the western rail corridor between Ennis and athenry).
With 5 trains a day for these passengers, that makes 300 passengers a day.

Then, the number of passengers travelling from the towns of south Tipperary to Dublin would be another 30 per train.
With 4 trains a day for these passengers requiring a change at Waterford or Limerick junction, and 1 train a day running direct to Dublin, that makes another 300 passengers a day, bringing my total estimate to 600 passengers a day.

I really don't feel that I'm being too optimistic here.

I think your been very optimistic with them numbers. Thats pretty much an increase of 1100 in daily journey's. The service runs off connections. The direct and earlier service will lap all them up. Most of the current users would likely move onto the direct or peak time services leaving the off peaks practically empty. It would be very difficult to run 80% of the schedule with connections to and from Dublin while also trying to run services around local peak demands.

ohographite

IE 222 wrote: »

I think your been very optimistic with them numbers. Thats pretty much an increase of 1100 in daily journey's. The service runs off connections. The direct and earlier service will lap all them up. Most of the current users would likely move onto the direct or peak time services leaving the off peaks practically empty. It would be very difficult to run 80% of the schedule with connections to and from Dublin while also trying to run services around local peak demands.

I still don't believe I am being optimistic with my estimate.
Not all potential passengers would want to travel at peak time.
I would say there would be very few passengers who would consider taking an off peak train, but who would instead take a peak time train if there were no off peak trains.
I'd say most passengers who would take an off peak train would just travel by car if there was no off peak train.

I don't understand where the increase of 1100 daily journeys comes from. My estimate is 600 journeys a day. The typical usage before lockdown was about 100 journeys a day. The increase I estimate that an improved service would make is an increase of 500 daily journeys.

Running trains around peak demand, which also connect with Dublin trains, can be done at some times of day.
For example, a train could leave Waterford at 18:35 and then reach Limerick junction to connect with the Cork to Dublin train which departs limerick junction at 20:24.

IE 222

ohographite wrote: »

I still don't believe I am being optimistic with my estimate.
Not all potential passengers would want to travel at peak time.
I would say there would be very few passengers who would consider taking an off peak train, but who would instead take a peak time train if there were no off peak trains.
I'd say most passengers who would take an off peak train would just travel by car if there was no off peak train.

I don't understand where the increase of 1100 daily journeys comes from. My estimate is 600 journeys a day. The typical usage before lockdown was about 100 journeys a day. The increase I estimate that an improved service would make is an increase of 500 daily journeys.

Running trains around peak demand, which also connect with Dublin trains, can be done at some times of day.
For example, a train could leave Waterford at 18:35 and then reach Limerick junction to connect with the Cork to Dublin train which departs limerick junction at 20:24.

I was taking your 600 quote as people and presuming a return journey as well. Fair enough with a direct service you wouldn't be too far off that figure although I think you would need to sacrifice a regional service for a second direct to achieve it.

The current service is pretty much an off peak service and them numbers tell you what the level of demand is for off peak travel on the line and keeping in mind a good portion of them would likely avail of earlier services if available.

ohographite

IE 222 wrote: »

I was taking your 600 quote as people and presuming a return journey as well. Fair enough with a direct service you wouldn't be too far off that figure although I think you would need to sacrifice a regional service for a second direct to achieve it.

The current service is pretty much an off peak service and them numbers tell you what the level of demand is for off peak travel on the line and keeping in mind a good portion of them would likely avail of earlier services if available.

Trains at some off peak times might do okay if they were direct trains to Limerick city, not requiring a change at Limerick junction, and if they connected well with Dublin trains(arriving just before a train to Dublin departs) so passengers wouldn't have to spend long waiting in the transfer station.
None of the current trains on this line do either of these things.

ohographite

I made a timetable which I think is a reasonable ask for the Waterford-Limerick line.
It is based on the current speeds that trains can travel at, and it only makes use of the passing loops* that are still on the line, so new passing loops aren't needed to implement it.
It also includes 1 direct train each way from Carrick-on-Suir to Dublin, via Limerick Junction.

I know that implementing this timetable would require the following things:

• a few trains dedicated to the line
• more work hours for the people who operate level crossings
• facilities to leave trains for the night in Carrick-on-Suir

I am not an expert on railway engineering, so there are probably some other things required which I don't know about.
Would anyone here know what else would be required to operate the timetable I made?

*There is one point on the timetable(at 06:24) when two trains pass each other in Tipperary, so if this timetable was in place, only one of them would actually be able to pick up/drop off passengers.

Geog1234

Well done on compiling this.

A key observation is that there is no train ex Waterford between 15.35 and 18.30 - ideally something around 17.15/30 M-F is required to enable mainstream commuting.

I realise that the existing passing loops probably preclude the 05.50 ex Limerick from departing slightly later i.e. reaching Waterford circa 08.15/ 20

In terms of operations the trains could be labelled e.g. the 11.33 ex Waterford and 14.55 ex Limerick are presumably operated by the same set - these could be labelled Train 1

Well done

Jamie2k9

ohographite wrote: »

I made a timetable which I think is a reasonable ask for the Waterford-Limerick line.
It is based on the current speeds that trains can travel at, and it only makes use of the passing loops* that are still on the line, so new passing loops aren't needed to implement it.
It also includes 1 direct train each way from Carrick-on-Suir to Dublin, via Limerick Junction.

I know that implementing this timetable would require the following things:

• a few trains dedicated to the line
• more work hours for the people who operate level crossings
• facilities to leave trains for the night in Carrick-on-Suir

I am not an expert on railway engineering, so there are probably some other things required which I don't know about.
Would anyone here know what else would be required to operate the timetable I made?

*There is one point on the timetable(at 06:24) when two trains pass each other in Tipperary, so if this timetable was in place, only one of them would actually be able to pick up/drop off passengers.

I am not taking away from the effort but...

* What is the rational for a 05.15 ex Carrick to Dublin, what sort of traffic do you expect to use it. I would draw your attention to the "Alan Kelly express" which operated at a similar time and have average patronage of 5. This would be the same.

* Why have a service out of Heston arriving in Carrick at 12.48 and overnight facilities would equate to 24/7 security given its Carrick.

* 05.50 Limerick-Wateford not going to draw commuter traffic (to early).

* 20.40/22.10 services, like the 05.15 I ask where passengers are going to come from. I honestly think people on boards don't understand there is just no traffic for these. Belfast/Cork services at that hour would do well to break 30 passengers and if you got a sample of BE traffic on route 55 at that hour of the day it would tell you to.

* The 3 middle of the day ex Limerick-Waterford have potential as does the 06.16 from Waterford, adjust the others for mid afternoon and early evening and it might work.

* Not considering Limerick J/Limerick capacity is also a problem.

ohographite

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I am not taking away from the effort but...

* What is the rational for a 05.15 ex Carrick to Dublin, what sort of traffic do you expect to use it. I would draw your attention to the "Alan Kelly express" which operated at a similar time and have average patronage of 5. This would be the same.

* Why have a service out of Heston arriving in Carrick at 12.48 and overnight facilities would equate to 24/7 security given its Carrick.

* 05.50 Limerick-Wateford not going to draw commuter traffic (to early).

* 20.40/22.10 services, like the 05.15 I ask where passengers are going to come from. I honestly think people on boards don't understand there is just no traffic for these. Belfast/Cork services at that hour would do well to break 30 passengers and if you got a sample of BE traffic on route 55 at that hour of the day it would tell you to.

* The 3 middle of the day ex Limerick-Waterford have potential as does the 06.16 from Waterford, adjust the others for mid afternoon and early evening and it might work.

* Not considering Limerick J/Limerick capacity is also a problem.

This was constructive feedback, so thank you. I would think that there is significant demand for trains from south Tipperary to Dublin. What time of day would a train from south Tipperary to Dublin be used the most?

tabbey

ohographite wrote: »

there is significant demand for trains from south Tipperary to Dublin. What time of day would a train from south Tipperary to Dublin be used the most?

A train departing Waterford about 0700 or 0800 and serving the South Tipperary line at a reasonable hour would allow day trippers get to Dublin about 1000 or 1100 for leisure, zoo or museum etc. A return departure from Dublin about 1630 or 1830 would allow a reasonable day out.
It would also be desirable to have an afternoon service to facilitate tourists return to Dublin for the night.
The problem with this is that there is no direct curve from the South Tipperary line towards Thurles and Dublin. To achieve a direct curve would require a small land acquisition, two points (turnouts) and a trailing crossover north of the square crossing. Also associated signalling.
Regarding your 0550 from Limerick, I assume this would run direct across the square crossing without entering Limerick junction.

sweet_trip

ohographite wrote: »

I made a timetable which I think is a reasonable ask for the Waterford-Limerick line.
It is based on the current speeds that trains can travel at, and it only makes use of the passing loops* that are still on the line, so new passing loops aren't needed to implement it.
It also includes 1 direct train each way from Carrick-on-Suir to Dublin, via Limerick Junction.

I know that implementing this timetable would require the following things:

• a few trains dedicated to the line
• more work hours for the people who operate level crossings
• facilities to leave trains for the night in Carrick-on-Suir

I am not an expert on railway engineering, so there are probably some other things required which I don't know about.
Would anyone here know what else would be required to operate the timetable I made?

*There is one point on the timetable(at 06:24) when two trains pass each other in Tipperary, so if this timetable was in place, only one of them would actually be able to pick up/drop off passengers.

Haven't been keeping up with this thread but a quick glance at your timetable I immediately see issues.
The majority of shift workers start/finish at 8am/pm.
Students and retail etc is 9am.

These departure/arrival times would suit little to nobody.

ohographite

tabbey wrote: »

A train departing Waterford about 0700 or 0800 and serving the South Tipperary line at a reasonable hour would allow day trippers get to Dublin about 1000 or 1100 for leisure, zoo or museum etc. A return departure from Dublin about 1630 or 1830 would allow a reasonable day out.
It would also be desirable to have an afternoon service to facilitate tourists return to Dublin for the night.
The problem with this is that there is no direct curve from the South Tipperary line towards Thurles and Dublin. To achieve a direct curve would require a small land acquisition, two points (turnouts) and a trailing crossover north of the square crossing. Also associated signalling.
Regarding your 0550 from Limerick, I assume this would run direct across the square crossing without entering Limerick junction.

Yes, I would send it through Limerick Junction without stopping there, if it is possible to do so.

Jamie2k9

ohographite wrote: »

This was constructive feedback, so thank you. I would think that there is significant demand for trains from south Tipperary to Dublin. What time of day would a train from south Tipperary to Dublin be used the most?

Similar to tabbey suggestion, if you had to run a direct service it would arrive in Heuston around 10.00-10.30 to get the day trippers. The earlier services on intercity routes don't attract them and in most cases only get busy when you hit commuter spots closer to Dublin.

In regards to daily demand honestly there isn't enough demand. How many travel from Clonmel to Dublin city center for work daily. Not that many anywhere else is irrelevant.

This line has real problems, people from Carrick will opt for Wateford as its so close and people around Clonmel will do Waterford or Kilkenny. Longer term this route faces bigger problems its already quicker to drive from Clonmel/Carrick to Waterford and the N24 Carrick to Mooncoin is under design which will cut times to Waterford even further and around Limerick Junction the road improvement is progressing.

Best option is 3rd daily service and prehaps one return Sunday evenings.

ohographite

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

This line has real problems, people from Carrick will opt for Wateford as its so close and people around Clonmel will do Waterford or Kilkenny. Longer term this route faces bigger problems its already quicker to drive from Clonmel/Carrick to Waterford and the N24 Carrick to Mooncoin is under design which will cut times to Waterford even further and around Limerick Junction the road improvement is progressing.

Best option is 3rd daily service and prehaps one return Sunday evenings.

I don't see why it's a problem for the railway if more people travel from Clonmel/Carrick to Kilkenny or Waterford than the amount who travel to Dublin, as the railway can be used by people making these journeys, too.

I still think it is a reasonable ask to run 6 trains each way daily.

I also think the amount of people who would travel by train to/from Dublin from/to south Tipperary would still be significant, and would be significant enough to be worth encouraging to take the train.
So I still think if you time Waterford-Limerick trains to connect well with Dublin bound trains(at Waterford or Limerick junction), it would add a significant amount of passengers to the amount using the line.