How will schools be able to go back in September? (Continued)

Blondini · 23-09-2020 10:53PM

Teacher bashing stems from feelings of inadequacy and jealousy.

Most likely didn't get enough points in the Leaving Cert to even do a basic degree.

Nothing more, nothing less.

Will Yam · 23-09-2020 10:58PM

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Partially due to a lot of people thinking they know what education is because they sat in a room. Partially due to having had a bad experience when they were in school when the gs were different. Partially down to jealousy over what they consider to be a 'soft job.

And nothing at all to do with the antics of teachers at, for example at their annual Easter shindigs?

You know - the ones where the lad with the megaphone was permitted to shout everyone down?

The events where even Mary Coughlan (god help us) got public sympathy because of the way teachers carried on?

The time when asti threatened to sabotage the leaving cert over some relatively trivial issue?

Will Yam · 23-09-2020 10:59PM

Blondini wrote: »

Teacher bashing stems from feelings of inadequacy and jealousy.

Most likely didn't get enough points in the Leaving Cert to even do a basic degree.

Nothing more, nothing less.

Or maybe it stems from patronising comments of people looking down their noses at parents?

khalessi · 23-09-2020 11:01PM

Will Yam wrote: »

Or maybe it stems from patronising comments of people looking down their noses at parents?

The majority of parents are decent hard woking people wanting the best for their kids.

wirelessdude01 · 23-09-2020 11:02PM

Will Yam wrote: »

And nothing at all to do with the antics of teachers at, for example at their annual Easter shindigs?

You do realise most people don't even realise conventions take place. Non issue. As for ASTI, none of my concern.

khalessi · 23-09-2020 11:09PM

Will Yam wrote: »

But if the attitude were the result of govt “pitting” private against public, then surely the same public attitude would prevail against nurses, gardai, librarians, county council employees, civil servants etc etc etc.

But it doesn’t. So why does it exist where teachers are concerned?

Teaching was a mainly female occupation even now the majority of teachers are female while the majority of principals male, something that is slowly changing. It along with nursing is regularly referred to as a vocation.

It was considered the little job for the woman to have. That history along with the hours and the perceived notion that teachers stop working at 2pm and do nothing during the holidays have added to the distain. Just look for the regular cliches, holidays working hours etc that is why.

Gardai didnt get it male profession traditionally, public service similar history women had to leave when getting married in 70s and the hangover is still there.
Nursing got it except for Psychiatric nursing which had mostly male staff and a strong union presence. As an nurse I experienced it.

Will Yam · 23-09-2020 11:13PM

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

You do realise most people don't even realise conventions take place. Non issue. As for ASTI, none of my concern.

Appreciate that. But Asti are the representative body for hundreds of teachers.

But the point was made (I think by a teacher) that public attitude towards teachers is negative. I asked why this might be the case, and got back stuff about public v private (not so), envy of people who couldn’t qualify (rubbish), “jealousy”, bad experience at school (possible).

But never, ever, once any thought that maybe, just maybe, it could conceivably be down, even in the most limited way, to teachers own behaviour.

Will Yam · 23-09-2020 11:16PM

khalessi wrote: »

Teaching was a mainly female occupation even now the majority of teachers are female while the majority of principals male, something that is slowly changing. It along with nursing is regularly referred to as a vocation.

It was considered the little job for the woman to have. That history along with the hours and the perceived notion that teachers stop working at 2pm and do nothing during the holidays have added to the distain. Just look for the regular cliches, holidays working hours etc that is why.

Gardai didnt get it male profession traditionally, public service similar history women had to leave when getting married in 70s and the hangover is still there.
Nursing got it except for Psychiatric nursing which had mostly male staff and a strong union presence. As an nurse I experienced it.

If I understand you right, this attitude exists because of the preponderance of females in teaching? I doubt that.

And as for holidays - surely most teachers do nothing during holidays - most people do!

khalessi · 23-09-2020 11:17PM

Will Yam wrote: »

Appreciate that. But Asti are the representative body for hundreds of teachers.

But the point was made (I think by a teacher) that public attitude towards teachers is negative. I asked why this might be the case, and got back stuff about public v private (not so), envy of people who couldn’t qualify (rubbish), “jealousy”, bad experience at school (possible).

But never, ever, once any thought that maybe, just maybe, it could conceivably be down, even in the most limited way, to teachers own behaviour.

With all careers there are good and bad teachers but the anti teacher attitude is down to the dact when peoples backs are against the wall, they see a job that is solid and secure and they complain about teacers getting paid, teachers holidays, teachers finishing at 2pm because the children have gone home. One of the few things that has not been thrown at teachers yet is behaviour, because the behaviour of one does not represent the many.

Occasionally someone might complain about a crap teacher and that colours their view but that cannot be pinned on a whole profession.

khalessi · 23-09-2020 11:18PM

Will Yam wrote: »

If I understand you right, this attitude exists because of the preponderance of females in teaching? I doubt that.

And as for holidays - surely most teachers do nothing during holidays - most people do!

Depends on the teacher, I do cpd and catch up on paperwork

Purplewaters · 23-09-2020 11:20PM

Will Yam wrote: »

Methinks you protest too much.

It’s extraordinary how a reasonable question can be asked about teachers, only to have it characterised as venom.

And then to characterise the question as one teacher doing one hour less, is with respect indicative of the victim complex.

I note your claim that our teachers deliver the best education results in the world - any independent verification of this claim?

Our education system is known to be one of the better with excellent pisa results. Another difference is Irish primary teachers have more contact hours than most other countries so lots of work is done outside hours as other countries have specials teachers in pe, music, art etc. An Irish teacher will be hired in any country and looked upon more favourably due to high standard of qualifications and the fact they teach 11 subjects from age 4 to 12. Many other countries the teachers are also only trained to teach certain ages. I feel you argue about it but know very little about the education in ireland and thr high equality of teaching despite the cramped conditions and large class sizes. Good pay used to draw well educated people in but with pension levy etc all added on, the pay is good but not as good as many with similar qualifications in the private sector.

Anyway I think as a teacher you shouldn't pay much attention to public attitude as you are there to do your best at your job and paying attention to negativity is pointless. I would however see these situations where the conditions are essentially quite unsafe in soem schools as an exception. The fact the same people who speak the tirade of abuse expect strangers to risk their own health to educate their kids and show them no respect just amazes me. Its just not the same as other environments. I think if you expect someone to put their own health at risk for your kids education to be catered for, then you should show respect. Most actuslly do but the ones who don't need a serious reality check. Maybe they should volunteer in a school during a pandemic for a few weeks before they speak.

wirelessdude01 · 23-09-2020 11:22PM

The public versus private sector thing is very much an issue. Successive governments have very clearly had a divide and conquer strategy which pits people against others. You often see people on here that say well I pay your wages via my taxes or the whole gold plated pensions things which is absolute rubbish for nearly every teacher who has started their careers in the past decade.

Teachers are an easy target as we are very visible to so many people every day. Schools are also an easy target when it comes to societies issues be it obesity, fitness rates, bullying. All lumped on schools to fix. Anyway that's a total tangent.

Purplewaters · 23-09-2020 11:27PM

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

The public versus private sector thing is very much an issue. Successive governments have very clearly had a divide and conquer strategy which pits people against others. You often see people on here that say well I pay your wages via my taxes or the whole gold plated pensions things which is absolute rubbish for nearly every teacher who has started their careers in the past decade.

Teachers are an easy target as we are very visible to so many people every day. Schools are also an easy target when it comes to societies issues be it obesity, fitness rates, bullying. All lumped on schools to fix. Anyway that's a total tangent.

Completely agree. The fact is with public and private both have perks and pitfalls.

wirelessdude01 · 23-09-2020 11:29PM

Will Yam wrote: »

And as for holidays - surely most teachers do nothing during holidays - most people do!

I know most primary teachers give up at least one week every summer to do CPD. Most would be in a few days before we are meant to be back to setup rooms/the school for the new year.

When I worked in the private sector holidays were exactly that. Work phone was left in work.

Will Yam · 23-09-2020 11:37PM

Purplewaters wrote: »

Our education system is known to be one of the better with excellent pisa results. Another difference is Irish primary teachers have more contact hours than most other countries so lots of work is done outside hours as other countries have specials teachers in pe, music, art etc. An Irish teacher will be hired in any country and looked upon more favourably due to high standard of qualifications and the fact they teach 11 subjects from age 4 to 12. Many other countries the teachers are also only trained to teach certain ages. I feel you argue about it but know very little about the education in ireland and thr high equality of teaching despite the cramped conditions and large class sizes. Good pay used to draw well educated people in but with pension levy etc all added on, the pay is good but not as good as many with similar qualifications in the private sector.

Anyway I think as a teacher you shouldn't pay much attention to public attitude as you are there to do your best at your job and paying attention to negativity is pointless. I would however see these situations where the conditions are essentially quite unsafe in soem schools as an exception. The fact the same people who speak the tirade of abuse expect strangers to risk their own health to educate their kids and show them no respect just amazes me. Its just not the same as other environments. I think if you expect someone to put their own health at risk for your kids education to be catered for, then you should show respect. Most actuslly do but the ones who don't need a serious reality check. Maybe they should volunteer in a school during a pandemic for a few weeks before they speak.

I’m still waiting for an answer to my questuion to your assertion about people wanting to dock teachers wages?

BonsaiKitten · 23-09-2020 11:37PM

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

I know most primary teachers give up at least one week every summer to do CPD. Most would be in a few days before we are meant to be back to setup rooms/the school for the new year.

When I worked in the private sector holidays were exactly that. Work phone was left in work.

I'd also point out that they pay for this CPD out of their own pockets. There's a few free courses but those are very much the minority.

Sometimes people complain about teachers taking course days but those course days are earned during summer.

Will Yam · 23-09-2020 11:38PM

BonsaiKitten wrote: »

I'd also point out that they pay for this CPD out of their own pockets. There's a few free courses but those are very much the minority.

Sometimes people complain about teachers taking course days but those course days are earned during summer.

Other professionals pay for their own cpd.

Nothing unusual here.

BonsaiKitten · 23-09-2020 11:40PM

Will Yam wrote: »

Other professionals pay for their own cpd.

Nothing unusual here.

Did I say that other professionals don't pay for their CPD? If you can find it, do point it out to me. I'm just remarking on how CPD for teachers works.

Will Yam · 23-09-2020 11:46PM

BonsaiKitten wrote: »

Did I say that other professionals don't pay for their CPD? If you can find it, do point it out to me. I'm just remarking on how CPD for teachers works.

It works the same as for many other professionals. So what?

Purplewaters · 23-09-2020 11:49PM

Will Yam wrote: »

I’m still waiting for an answer to my questuion to your assertion about people wanting to dock teachers wages?

It wasn't you it was mark o daly who asked for no pay restore (not rise) to fund infrastructure.

In response to cpd, to compare with nursing, they receive masters paid for, study leave also and pay increase for the masters once they get it. Teachers get no pay increase for masters and have to pay for it all themselves. That js a huge difference even within public sector. Pretty sure most private companies fund relevant training but courses you do yourself to try get employed in other company etc proabbly not so it would depend on company ans reason for course I presume.

BonsaiKitten · 23-09-2020 11:49PM

Will Yam wrote: »

It works the same as for many other professionals. So what?

Ah so no real relevance - other than whataboutery - to my comment about teachers and CPD then. I'm glad we clarified that. Most interesting that when a simple comment is made explaining how CPD works the response is "yeah but ____".

khalessi · 23-09-2020 11:51PM

Will Yam wrote: »

Other professionals pay for their own cpd.

Nothing unusual here.

True they do, but many get fees for college back when they graduate or pass the course.

wirelessdude01 · 23-09-2020 11:52PM

Will Yam wrote: »

Other professionals pay for their own cpd.

Nothing unusual here.

When I was in the private sector I never paid for CPD. Study leave granted as well. Always resulted in a pay rise as well. Was very lucky in that regard.

One caveat is that if you didn't pass first time you then repaid 50% of the cost and obviously had to pay resit fees out of your own pocket.

Will Yam · 23-09-2020 11:59PM

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

When I was in the private sector I never paid for CPD. Study leave granted as well. Always resulted in a pay rise as well. Was very lucky in that regard.

One caveat is that if you didn't pass first time you then repaid 50% of the cost and obviously had to pay resit fees out of your own pocket.

I had considerable involvement in cpd for one profession. The majority, but not all, had to fund it themselves.

Purplewaters · 24-09-2020 12:01AM

Will Yam wrote: »

I had considerable involvement in cpd for one profession. The majority, but not all, had to fund it themselves.

Cant see anyone doing it then unless it was to change jobs or get a promotion, and they'd e changing for better salary. It essentially means most teachers won't do a masters unless theytr leaving teaching to do something else.

josip · 24-09-2020 12:08AM

What is the relevance of CPD to Covid 19 and schools?

khalessi · 24-09-2020 12:09AM

josip wrote: »

What is the relevance of CPD to Covid 19 and schools?

just an aside, conversation

markodaly · 24-09-2020 02:30AM

Smacruairi wrote: »

Sack them all, you're right Mark. Teachinggal for minister for education too, marquees and fringes for all, exchange programmes with the Netherlands. Great stuff.

Ah, feigned humour as a way to not address any of the points I raised. Well, I guess if that makes one comfortable and not have to deploy any critical thinking on the issues at hand.

markodaly · 24-09-2020 02:34AM

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Just increase taxes so that the burden is shared by all or maybe just put the additonal tax burden on those that dare to have children 😤 😑 😒

Well, almost half the population pays no income tax, the bottom half of the workforce.

That is a huge outlier when it comes to the OECD. The average German, Swede, Finn or Dutch guy on a lower wage pays a hell of a lot more tax than the Irish guy on a similar wage. So if one really wants to go to European norms, to raise revenue then this would be the first port of call... right? :pac:

markodaly · 24-09-2020 02:42AM

irishblessing wrote: »

I don't understand why, after all this time and pages and pages of discussion, views all over the radio and unions speaking up- some people still can't take on board the idea of hybrid remote learning. It's not an either or. Kids stay home and no education OR kids fully in school.

There's an obvious in-between other countries have figured out and innovated but of course, not us!

A few things.

First of all, Ireland is years if not decades behind other countries when it comes to exploring technology in delivering education. There is simply no comparison when it comes to Ireland and say Singapore or Japan or Australia. The tech and infrastructure is just not there to do it large scale and commonly across the entire country.

Secondly, remote learning has its problems and the data is coming thick and fast in this.
Basicly kids from disadvantaged areas regress, yes they have gone backwards since Covid even though remote 'learning' is available in these countries with better infrastructure than Ireland.
Kids from good backgrounds do well, but that means that you are basically consigned kids from poorer economic situation to the scrapheap in the interest of keeping a few moaning teachers safe.

I dare say, its better to have kids in the classroom than not, and the data agrees with me on this.

Lastly, again, the stakeholders in education have to take a long long hard look at themselves. The Unions in eduction are a disgrace and have blocked any attempts at reform for the past few decades. Remember the Junior Cert reform? A lot of hot air about nothing from the Unions.

How will schools be able to go back in September? (Continued)

Comments