Formula 1 2020 - General Discussion Thread (See MOD warning on first post)

22-09-2020 4:02pm

Are there any best guesses as to how much difference the slick tyres now make? Actually not just slick but not-rocks like they used to be. :pac: 2005 had tyres which had to last a whole race but even in 2003 Ralf did a race without changing his fronts. Tyres being equal would the current cars be faster than 15 years ago?

ELM327 · 22-09-2020 4:05pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Are there any best guesses as to how much difference the slick tyres now make? Actually not just slick but not-rocks like they used to be. :pac: 2005 had tyres which had to last a whole race but even in 2003 Ralf did a race without changing his fronts. Tyres being equal would the current cars be faster than 15 years ago?

I'd wager if you could time travel and put the tires from today on the Ferrari from 02 or 04, it would be much faster than today's cars. Especially on power tracks.

El_Duderino 09 · 22-09-2020 4:40pm

ELM327 wrote: »

Faster cars removing the silly heavy batteries , yeah that's backwards alright

Agreed. Since batteries are probably part of the future and ICE on it's own is very much a part of the past. I think your statement above is correct re batteries. ICE on it's own has an actual end date for sale as a technology in lots of countries. It's very much technology of the past.

ELM327 · 22-09-2020 4:42pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Agreed. Since batteries are probably part of the future and ICE on it's own is very much a part of the past. I think your statement above is correct re batteries. ICE on it's own has an actual end date for sale as a technology in lots of countries. It's very much technology of the past.

Oh yeah, an end date, completely workable when less than 1% of cars are battery electrics. I should know, I drive a Tesla.

BEV/HEV etc should have no place in F1. It's like having a diesel engined F1 car for better efficiency. Ridiculous.

22-09-2020 4:56pm

Weird watching and catching up on the Schumacher and Alonso years and how tight things ended up and some of the to's and fro's of the year. Schumacher's push from the marshalls at the Nurburgring made all the difference. Plus Kimi's engine blowing up. Plus Coulthard spinning out giving Schumi another point.

ELM327 · 22-09-2020 5:02pm

Alonso in '06 came right down to the wire too. Same as a couple of Vettel's titles, along with Kimi who should have had at least one more WDC title, from his mclaren days

chicorytip · 22-09-2020 5:06pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Listening to an f1 podcast and they're talking about Vettel and they began by saying something to the effect of "obviously ferrari has treated Vettel absolutely terribly". But I still don't buy the narrative that ferrari has treated Vettel terribley. Certainly not so terribly that it justifies throwing his toys our of the pram and not really trying.

We know they haven't given him championship challenging car (except 2018 and maybe 2019) and we know they didn't enter into formal contract negotiations with him beyond saying they would expect him to take a pay cut which he said he wouldn't do. And they promoted a ferrari young driver who's faster than him on about 7% of his wage.

Beyond those things, what has ferrari actually done to Seb to justify the narrative that they've treated him terribly to the extent that he can't be expected to perform well?

Nobody can claim that his behaviour has been anything other than exemplary during his time there. His one (unfulfilled) ambition was to win the title driving a red car and he has certainly tried his utmost but the machinery has never been quite good enough whilst the Merc has been superlative.
I think he has been the beating heart of the team for the past six seasons and has been treated shabbily given his loyalty and professionalism.
The correct decision would have been to retain him for another two years. Sainz has been given the job too early although I would rate him higher than LeClerc in terms of driving skills.

El_Duderino 09 · 22-09-2020 5:14pm

ELM327 wrote: »

Oh yeah, an end date, completely workable when less than 1% of cars are battery electrics. I should know, I drive a Tesla.

BEV/HEV etc should have no place in F1. It's like having a diesel engined F1 car for better efficiency. Ridiculous.

Right. So ICE on it's own is technology of the past and not really a future technology.

muckwarrior · 22-09-2020 5:55pm

chicorytip wrote: »

Sainz ... I would rate him higher than LeClerc in terms of driving skills.

I fear this will not age well.

El_Duderino 09 · 22-09-2020 6:48pm

muckwarrior wrote: »

I fear this will not age well.

I kinda feel here's a massive caveat there "in terms of driving skills" which I think would get them out of any trouble. Like, LeClerc is going to beat Vettel both years they're teammates imtnhe same car, but I dont think most people here agree that LeClerc is the faster driver. Or do they?

skipper_G · 22-09-2020 6:56pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I kinda feel here's a massive caveat there "in terms of driving skills" which I think would get them out of any trouble. Like, LeClerc is going to beat Vettel both years they're teammates imtnhe same car, but I dont think most people here agree that LeClerc is the faster driver. Or do they?

Leclerc is the faster driver imo

El_Duderino 09 · 22-09-2020 8:02pm

skipper_G wrote: »

Leclerc is the faster driver imo

I'd agree with that too. But I think the prevailing attitude here is that Vettel is still a top driver and his performance is just a very long run of bad luck or he's not trying very hard or whatever.

Harika · 22-09-2020 8:32pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Are there any best guesses as to how much difference the slick tyres now make? Actually not just slick but not-rocks like they used to be. :pac: 2005 had tyres which had to last a whole race but even in 2003 Ralf did a race without changing his fronts. Tyres being equal would the current cars be faster than 15 years ago?

Depends, during the tyre war tyres were called black gold, as they could easily still find half a second by improving the rubber. Pirellis tyres are not in competition, but build on customer specs for show. on the other side 15 year of overall research going into it

mickdw · 22-09-2020 10:12pm

skipper_G wrote: »

Leclerc is the faster driver imo

Of course he is.

Id rate

le clerc
Verstappen
Hamilton
Ricciardo
Sainz

As being faster than vettel

Frank Bullitt · 22-09-2020 10:13pm

https://www.racefans.net/2020/09/22/ex-ferrari-boss-domenicali-to-take-over-as-formula-1-ceo/

Former Ferrari team principal Stefano Domenicali is poised to make a surprise return to Formula 1 as the CEO of the sport, RaceFans has learned from a source with knowledge of the situation.

Wasn't expecting this!

mickdw · 22-09-2020 10:29pm

interesting. What was his latest job - Head of Lamborgini? or had he moved on from there

Frank Bullitt · 22-09-2020 10:30pm

mickdw wrote: »

interesting. What was his latest job - Head of Lamborgini? or had he moved on from there

CEO of Lamborgini the last few years.

El_Duderino 09 · 23-09-2020 9:08am

That'll make the three top people in f1 former ferrari men - Domenical, brawn and todt. Sounds wrong. Makes sense of the incredibly friendly handling of the engine cheating last season.

This is it · 23-09-2020 9:13am

Here we go again.

muckwarrior · 23-09-2020 11:44am

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I'd agree with that too. But I think the prevailing attitude here is that Vettel is still a top driver and his performance is just a very long run of bad luck or he's not trying very hard or whatever.

I think that's just the attitude of a vocal minority who refuse to acknowledge that Vettel isn't as good as his 4 Championships would suggest he is.

mickdw wrote: »

Of course he is.

Id rate

le clerc
Verstappen
Hamilton
Ricciardo
Sainz

As being faster than vettel

Sainz remains to be seen IMO, but would agree on the rest.

El_Duderino 09 · 23-09-2020 12:01pm

muckwarrior wrote: »

I think that's just the attitude of a vocal minority who refuse to acknowledge that Vettel isn't as good as his 4 Championships would suggest he is.

Sainz remains to be seen IMO, but would agree on the rest.

His current performance level certainly isn't that of a top driver or a champion. Whether he was that good in the past is another question.

He was faster than Webber every year and that was enough to win the championship. If bottas had a slower teammate instead of Hamilton then he'd be a multiple world champion by now too. But thst still doesn't address whether he was a Tip top river back then.

I actually think Vettel won't beat Stroll by a big margin next year. I think it will be nip and tuck between them as I think stroll was terrible when he started and now he's improved to ok/good and that's where I think Vettel's performance is now. I think if Perez goes to HAAS or Alfa he will mop the floor with any of the current drivers there as a teammate.

recyclebin · 23-09-2020 3:06pm

If you ignore this season because the Ferrari is crap, Vettels form and pace has been on a steady decline over the previous 2 to 3 years. Compare it to Hamilton who's form has been as good as it has always been.

Vettel is a great name for Aston Martin to bag but I don't think it will give them the results they expect from a 4 time world champion.

El_Duderino 09 · 23-09-2020 3:21pm

recyclebin wrote: »

If you ignore this season because the Ferrari is crap, Vettels form and pace has been on a steady decline over the previous 2 to 3 years. Compare it to Hamilton who's form has been as good as it has always been.

Vettel is a great name for Aston Martin to bag but I don't think it will give them the results they expect from a 4 time world champion.

Yeah he's a great signing. He lends legitimacy to the team's ambition to become a winner. I agree that i don't think he will deliver the performances people think he will. There's a notion that he will be "rejuvenated" by his move to Aston Martin. I really think that's just wishful thinking. With that said, Ferrari is probably a poor work environment.

Frank Bullitt · 23-09-2020 4:26pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Yeah he's a great signing. He lends legitimacy to the team's ambition to become a winner. I agree that i don't think he will deliver the performances people think he will. There's a notion that he will be "rejuvenated" by his move to Aston Martin. I really think that's just wishful thinking. With that said, Ferrari is probably a poor work environment.

I think that might be a bigger factor than most might think. I can only imagine since Leclerc signed that big deal, Vettel knew the writing was on the wall, and then the engine ruling hampering their performance, that was that.

I have grown to Vettel, I think he has more to offer for sure, just needs a lot to go in his favour right now, but to keep a 4 time world champion on the grid is good for the sport.

vectra · 23-09-2020 4:28pm

recyclebin wrote: »

If you ignore this season because the Ferrari is crap, Vettels form and pace has been on a steady decline over the previous 2 to 3 years. Compare it to Hamilton who's form has been as good as it has always been.

Vettel is a great name for Aston Martin to bag but I don't think it will give them the results they expect from a 4 time world champion.

I would tend to disagree,
Over the past 2 or 3 years he was really the only other driver to put the fight up to Merc.
I wonder what would be the count in drivers titles if he had Bottas's seat with the past few years.
I think he will be strong again once he moves.

El_Duderino 09 · 23-09-2020 4:45pm

vectra wrote: »

I would tend to disagree,
Over the past 2 or 3 years he was really the only other driver to put the fight up to Merc.
I wonder what would be the count in drivers titles if he had Bottas's seat with the past few years.
I think he will be strong again once he moves.

In the last 3 years he has had Kimi as a team mate who he beat comprehensively, and Leclerc who he lost to last year and will almost certainly lose pretty heavily to Leclerc this year.

Last year both Verstappen and Leclerc finished ahead of Vettel.

I think it's really unlikely he would have beaten Hamilton any of those years. And his form from mid 2018 has been poor. Hamilton would have embarrassed him between then and now.

vectra · 23-09-2020 5:06pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

In the last 3 years he has had Kimi as a team mate who he beat comprehensively, and Leclerc who he lost to last year and will almost certainly lose pretty heavily to Leclerc this year.

Last year both Verstappen and Leclerc finished ahead of Vettel.

I think it's really unlikely he would have beaten Hamilton any of those years. And his form from mid 2018 has been poor. Hamilton would have embarrassed him between then and now.

Leclerc beat Vettel last year!
So what
Rosberg beat Hamilton in 2016.

As for Hamilton embarrassing him?
Purely speculation.
You nor anyone else knows that for a fact.

El_Duderino 09 · 23-09-2020 5:32pm

vectra wrote: »

Leclerc beat Vettel last year!
So what
Rosberg beat Hamilton in 2016.

As for Hamilton embarrassing him?
Purely speculation.
You nor anyone else knows that for a fact.

Sure, Last year was just one year so lets see how Leclerc and Vettel are doing this year... Turns out Leclerc is beating Vettel again this year. He has over twice Vettel's points total this year and has a comprehensive lead in quail results. It must be hard to minimise the hammering Vettel is getting this year. And the 2:0 scoreline over the season to Leclerc is going to be very difficult to interpret in any other way than Vettel being considerably slower than Leclerc.

vectra · 23-09-2020 8:36pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Sure, Last year was just one year so lets see how Leclerc and Vettel are doing this year... Turns out Leclerc is beating Vettel again this year. He has over twice Vettel's points total this year and has a comprehensive lead in quail results. It must be hard to minimise the hammering Vettel is getting this year. And the 2:0 scoreline over the season to Leclerc is going to be very difficult to interpret in any other way than Vettel being considerably slower than Leclerc.

He is,
But isn't it a bit early to assume he is going to beat him by the end of the season?
I am not saying Vettel is the messiah or anything like that, what i am saying is I think people are wrong to think he is done and dusted. He can be a very fast driver given the right car.

El_Duderino 09 · 23-09-2020 9:23pm

vectra wrote: »

He is,
But isn't it a bit early to assume he is going to beat him by the end of the season?
I am not saying Vettel is the messiah or anything like that, what i am saying is I think people are wrong to think he is done and dusted. He can be a very fast driver given the right car.

Why does he need to be given the right car to drive fast? He's given the same car as LeClerc and can't drive as fast as him. If he needs to be given a car thst suits him to perform, then he's got a serious weakness as a driver. When you combine thst with the fact thst he blew his shot at the 2018 championship (when he had a fast car) by his own errors, it looks pretty bad for him.

I don't know if he's done and dusted. His form would suggest he's done and dusted but he used to be fast so it's hard to know if he's

I don't think it's too early to assume LeClerc is going to beat Vettel. I'd say the margin won't even close. I'd say LeClerc will power ahead and outscore Vettel between now and the end of the season. Vettel's having a nightmare. The best wishful thinking is that it will all turn around when he changes team.

Formula 1 2020 - General Discussion Thread (See MOD warning on first post)

Comments