Formula 1 2020 - General Discussion Thread (See MOD warning on first post)

chicorytip

GarIT wrote: »

I don't think Alfa can drop Gio. It was reported when they became Alfa that the sponsorship deal gives up any choice they have on their second seat. Ferrari pick Alfa's second driver without consulting Alfa.

Ferrari "own" both seats and dictate driver recruitment. That's why Raikkonen got the drive in the first place. It was a consolation prize awarded to him for being dumped by the first team.

El_Duderino 09

chicorytip wrote: »

Ferrari "own" both seats and dictate driver recruitment. That's why Raikkonen got the drive in the first place. It was a consolation prize awarded to him for being dumped by the first team.

I've read that and I've also read that ferrari has nothing to do with the second sauber seat or with Kimi getting that seat. Hard to know.

tipp_tipp_tipp

tipp_tipp_tipp wrote: »

Yeah this is a fair point. Imola 2005 was great because it was hard to schumi to pass, and you felt Alonso achieved something holding on. And as was the case at the weekend the DRS zone was too long, and the pass was done before the breaking zone. Yet most races in the past it was impossible to pass, and passes for the lead were very very rare. I think what we have now has at least gives us moments like verstappen passing (running into) Leclerc at austria last year, Hamilton and Rosberg running into each other at Austria 2016. Overall it's nett benefit imo.

Time for leaba for me. Thanks for replies, enjoyed the debate. Cheers guys

Funnily enough I ended up watching highlights from the 2005 British GP last night. I have to admit 04-06 are the years I have the least clear memory of. I probably watched the races live but given I turned 16 in 04 I was usually quite happy if I woke on Sunday in time for the warm-up lap. :pac:
Anyway, at the 05 British GP Brundle very strongly makes the point that the 05 regulations made it much harder to follow. Apparently the drivers were complaining from day one of testing. Obviously they always complain about everything but it seems that it was a big talking point from the 05 regs.

I agree the 09 regs didn't really work and tbh I think the more complex you make an attempt to fix it the worse it's going to be. Having the stupidly wide front wings to "clean up" the air and apparently trying to make it so the air would be cleaner because it was working harder at the front (:rolleyes:) didn't work because it almost added an extra plane of interfence with air being sent around the car even more than before.

After 09 they went a bit mental with raising the front nose more and more for, ugh, safety. Now that the halo is present I wonder if pointy, low noses and wings are an option again to try and clean things up.

Sidenote on the 05 season, I forgot just how awful Kimi's luck/McLaren's reliability was that year.

Frank Bullitt

tipp_tipp_tipp wrote: »

Gintonious wrote: »

But...mostly all of the races now are boring as well. The cars sound crap, we have the DRS to help overtaking (I never liked the DRS), and the title is pretty much decided after the first preseason test.[/QUOTE


So firstly, there are boring races. there will always be boring races. This is sport. I'm a big hurling fan. I've seen a lot of dull matches sitting in the old stand in Thurles, but I'll go to the match knowing there's a chance it'll be cracker. It's also import to recognise that boring is subjective. A race you may find boring, I may find enjoyable. I'm only describing my own personal experience here.

This season hasn't been good, and I'm disappointed mercedes are as far ahead as they are like everyone else, but yet I really enjoyed Austria 1, silverstone 2 (a classic tactical race imo), monza and I enjoyed the race at the weekend mugello. 4/9 ain't bad for such a dominate season.

I've sat through many a race back in the day where there was little to no overtaking on track, and everything was decided by the pitstops, which was largely predictable after they made them carry the race fuel in qualy. I enjoy the races these days more. Again this is my own experience, sorry if doesn't tally with yours.

The cars sound fine imo. Again subjective. And as an engineer myself, I Like really like the technology behind them. Having seen these cars in the flesh for first time last year, I was mighty impressed. Much better than I expected.

No denying that.

Main issue I have now is that we have boring seasons, not just races. Titles are decided very early or are predictable, no odd crazy race will make a season good. Look at 2011, utter garbage for a season, but we got the Canada race out of it which was insane, Does that men the season good? Not a hope in hell.

SMC92Ian

Gintonious wrote: »

tipp_tipp_tipp wrote: »

No denying that.

Main issue I have now is that we have boring seasons, not just races. Titles are decided very early or are predictable, no odd crazy race will make a season good. Look at 2011, utter garbage for a season, but we got the Canada race out of it which was insane, Does that men the season good? Not a hope in hell.

I can't remember anything from 2011 just that race.

AMKC

Deleted User wrote: »

Funnily enough I ended up watching highlights from the 2005 British GP last night. I have to admit 04-06 are the years I have the least clear memory of. I probably watched the races live but given I turned 16 in 04 I was usually quite happy if I woke on Sunday in time for the warm-up lap. :pac:
Anyway, at the 05 British GP Brundle very strongly makes the point that the 05 regulations made it much harder to follow. Apparently the drivers were complaining from day one of testing. Obviously they always complain about everything but it seems that it was a big talking point from the 05 regs.

I agree the 09 regs didn't really work and tbh I think the more complex you make an attempt to fix it the worse it's going to be. Having the stupidly wide front wings to "clean up" the air and apparently trying to make it so the air would be cleaner because it was working harder at the front (:rolleyes:) didn't work because it almost added an extra plane of interfence with air being sent around the car even more than before.

After 09 they went a bit mental with raising the front nose more and more for, ugh, safety. Now that the halo is present I wonder if pointy, low noses and wings are an option again to try and clean things up.

Sidenote on the 05 season, I forgot just how awful Kimi's luck/McLaren's reliability was that year.

Ye the Mercedes engines then were shi,t.. then. If it was not for that Kimi would have been at least three time WDC champion and it would have been a lot harder for Alonso to get it in 05 and 06 not that I did not mind that. Kimi was my favourite driver untill Alonso came along. Then Button.

The wider front wings now also seem to add a lot to the practical length/size of the car. Looking at the old races you could send it up the inside and even if you ran straight on the other car could let you go and cut back easier. There's a lot of overtakes than look like it's gonna be a lot front wing or puncture but there's no contact. Lovely.

GarIT

chicorytip wrote: »

Ferrari "own" both seats and dictate driver recruitment. That's why Raikkonen got the drive in the first place. It was a consolation prize awarded to him for being dumped by the first team.

Is there any evidence for this conspiracy? Ferrari say they had no idea Kimi was going to Alfa until it was announced, Kimi said they had nothing to do with it and didn't know, and Alfa said Ferrari had nothing to do with it.


There are numerours journalists saying Marichonne had a deal arranged to buy Sauber but it wasn't followed through with on his death. They also say that Ferrari agreed to pay £30m per year for a full rebrand of the team and owning the second seat.

GarIT

Deleted User wrote: »

After 09 they went a bit mental with raising the front nose more and more for, ugh, safety. Now that the halo is present I wonder if pointy, low noses and wings are an option again to try and clean things up.

I think you've gotten that backwards. The teams were raising the noses for performance and rules were brought into lower the nose for safety to stop someone getting the nose of the car into the head and cars with higher noses were being lifted up and over the car in front.

afatbollix

GarIT wrote: »

Is there any evidence for this conspiracy? Ferrari say they had no idea Kimi was going to Alfa until it was announced, Kimi said they had nothing to do with it and didn't know, and Alfa said Ferrari had nothing to do with it.


There are numerours journalists saying Marichonne had a deal arranged to buy Sauber but it wasn't followed through with on his death. They also say that Ferrari agreed to pay £30m per year for a full rebrand of the team and owning the second seat.

Surly FIAT would have more say than Ferrari? Since they are the parent company.

Cork Trucker

afatbollix wrote: »

Surly FIAT would have more say than Ferrari? Since they are the parent company.

Is it not Fiat-Chrysler now?

AMKC

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Is it not Fiat-Chrysler now?

Yes it is Fiat-Chrysler automobiles now or FCA for short and yes they sold of the most valuable asset they had Ferrari in 2015 to private investors like the poster above said. That is why you never see Fiat advertised on the side of the Ferrari F1 car anymore.

chopperbyrne

The last really good F1 season was 2012.

Ridiculous year.

Just looking at a race in Imola and have to wonder if they could do something with Tamburello. Obviously a race each year would probably be needed to make it worth their while but it looks like there's enough space there now to make it a double-left hander sweeper or at the very least a wide left-hander into a tighter one.

Also it's the 2005 Imola race I have on now and Raikkonen retires from a fairly comfortable lead. Every one I watch from that year something goes wrong for him or his teammate retires to give more points to Alonso.

AMKC

Deleted User wrote: »

Just looking at a race in Imola and have to wonder if they could do something with Tamburello. Obviously a race each year would probably be needed to make it worth their while but it looks like there's enough space there now to make it a double-left hander sweeper or at the very least a wide left-hander into a tighter one.

Also it's the 2005 Imola race I have on now and Raikkonen retires from a fairly comfortable lead. Every one I watch from that year something goes wrong for him or his teammate retires to give more points to Alonso.

Ye it was terrible for Kimi that year. Had the engines been more reliable he probably would have won the WDC that season. It was terrible he would be leading doing great then boom the engine would go up in smoke and race over.

tigerboon

Little bit off topic but Le Mans is this weekend. Toyota would be the hot favourites but the year that's in it..... would be good to see Rebellion get a win

quokula

chopperbyrne wrote: »

The last really good F1 season was 2012.

Ridiculous year.

Also, by no coincidence, the last year untainted by the hybrid regulations. The teams were phoning it in in 2013 while putting all their effort into pouring money into the heavier, slower, more expensive cars for the year that followed. And F1 has been a meagre shadow of what it used to be ever since.

mrsoundie

We could have a one-off F1 race over six hours where they have to use three drivers during the period and one of them has to be a rookie.

mrsoundie

mrsoundie wrote: »

We could have a one-off F1 race over six hours where they have to use three drivers during the period and one of them has to be a rookie.

On the one hand I wouldn't be too surprised to see some gimicky stuff come in over the next few years. Since they're going with the franchise/yank kinda set-up I can see them aping the all-star game kinda thing in the medium term. Obviously would go against all the eco/green nonsense they like to push which is the only reason I can see it not happening.

the_pen_turner

Its already got gimmicks such as drs , minimum no of tyres, kers etc. I dont see what wrong with trying out sprint races or reverse grids etc. What's it going to do, make for boring races and annoyed fans. Whelan we already have that

the_pen_turner

the_pen_turner wrote: »

Its already got gimmicks such as drs , minimum no of tyres, kers etc. I dont see what wrong with trying out sprint races or reverse grids etc. What's it going to do, make for boring races and annoyed fans. Whelan we already have that

I didn't say I was necessarily against it. Years ago there were non-championship races but I don't see them making a comeback as they were. Competing for a purse in a race isn't going to be approved by the **** teams any time soon.

ELM327

I just don't see why we can't go back to the old days where F1 was the pinnacle of motorsport. Now it's just another series where engineers are limited by rules. Other cars are faster. Even a porsche hybrid without restrictions lapped spa faster than a current day f1 car.

duploelabs

ELM327 wrote: »

I just don't see why we can't go back to the old days where F1 was the pinnacle of motorsport. Now it's just another series where engineers are limited by rules. Other cars are faster. Even a porsche hybrid without restrictions lapped spa faster than a current day f1 car.

Well of course the 919 lapped faster, that's what the restrictions are in place for.
Do you now think F1 cars should out accelerate drag racers? That they should rotate faster than karts? Or that they should last longer at full tilt than lmp1 cars? Get real will ye

the_pen_turner

duploelabs wrote: »

Well of course the 919 lapped faster, that's what the restrictions are in place for.
Do you now think F1 cars should out accelerate drag racers? That they should rotate faster than karts? Or that they should last longer at full tilt than lmp1 cars? Get real will ye

of course it shouldnt be better than every other form of motorsport but it should be the best in one way. it needs its own niche . right now its not the pinacle in any way.

ELM327

duploelabs wrote: »

Well of course the 919 lapped faster, that's what the restrictions are in place for.
Do you now think F1 cars should out accelerate drag racers? That they should rotate faster than karts? Or that they should last longer at full tilt than lmp1 cars? Get real will ye

Get real? Jesus who pissed in your cornflakes.




On Topic: I don'tlike the idea of knowing who is going to win the WDC in 2020 and 2021 already, I don't like hybrids and I dont like race gimmicks.


Bring back the screaming V10s or V8s without rev limiters.

duploelabs

ELM327 wrote: »

Get real? Jesus who pissed in your cornflakes.




On Topic: I don'tlike the idea of knowing who is going to win the WDC in 2020 and 2021 already, I don't like hybrids and I dont like race gimmicks.


Bring back the screaming V10s or V8s without rev limiters.

There's a vital element of F1 you seem to be oblivious to. Aside for the racing element of F1, it is used as the R+D sectors for many manufacturers. Systems are tested and developed there then filter down to road cars, to push development in engineering to make the cars more efficient, some rule changes like the switch to hybrid is a backflow of r+d policy where engines are developed with the resulting road cars in mind, that's why there will never be a return to v8, v10, or v12s

ELM327

duploelabs wrote: »

There's a vital element of F1 you seem to be oblivious to. Aside for the racing element of F1, it is used as the R+D sectors for many manufacturers. Systems are tested and developed there then filter down to road cars, to push development in engineering to make the cars more efficient, some rule changes like the switch to hybrid is a backflow of r+d policy where engines are developed with the resulting road cars in mind, that's why there will never be a return to v8, v10, or v12s

So in the FW18 williams vs benetton vs ferrari, there was still that R and D for road cars (2 constructors/customer teams and ferrari who dont really sell hybrids except the $1m+ laferrari)? Or is that a recent development as a result of chasing more money?

If it filters down to road cars, please show me a 1.6 V6 turbo hybrid road car?

Harika

The ongoing change keeps F1 alive, besides NASCAR there is no other series as long lasting, and all arguments I hear here have been mentioned 20 years ago in IRC.
How often it was said that series a or b is doing a better job than F1 and where are they now?
DTM is dead as their concept is not attractive for manufacturers anymore. LMP in whatever incarnation died again and again because of his costs with lack of audience. Besides lemans. IndyCar since the split in the 90s irrelevant and could never compete with F1 on a global scale.
You might not like the hybrid systems but this keeps the manufacturers in, and a Ferrari against Mercedes battle is more interesting as Joe McDuff's Vs. Burner.
With the new Concorde agreement F1 is even more stable than before.
Crowds are still coming and with liberty we are on a good way.

Frank Bullitt

OSI wrote: »

https://www.mercedes-benz.co.uk/passengercars/mercedes-benz-cars/futurecars/mercedes-amg-project-one/mercedes-amg-project-one.module.html

They're also utilising tech from the MGU-H in their next gen AMG cars


https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.mercedes-to-debut-formula-1-mgu-h-technology-in-amg-road-cars.6ha9y57tg2aY33xZsWQjwH.html

Of course Merc are. This is the EXACT reason they threatened to leave F1 if the FIA didn't change the rules. They were developing an inline 4 engine for F1, once that was dumped in favour of the V6 we have, they dropped it into their road cars.

Here, ladies and gents, is why we have the F1 we have today. One manufacturer leveraging their needs to influence the whole sport, hence the snooze fest seasons we have had since 2014. I have posted about this before on how Merc we quite happy to go with the V6 as long as they hybrid and turbo systems were kept, they had been developing them since 2011.

Frank Bullitt

ELM327 wrote: »

So in the FW18 williams vs benetton vs ferrari, there was still that R and D for road cars (2 constructors/customer teams and ferrari who dont really sell hybrids except the $1m+ laferrari)? Or is that a recent development as a result of chasing more money?

If it filters down to road cars, please show me a 1.6 V6 turbo hybrid road car?

This is the SF90, it has 986 combined HP. Good to see the tech in F1 reach the humble people of the world...:rolleyes: