Covid 19 Part XXIII-33,444 in ROI(1,792 deaths) 9,541 in NI(577 deaths)(22/09)Read OP

BorneTobyWilde · 19-09-2020 11:32PM

Shirley two weeks of an actual stay at home order for the whole country sorts this. This is what Wuhan did, NO ONE ALLOWED OUT,
HOUSE ARREST THE WHOLE COUNTRY FOR TWO WEEKS.

NO SUPERMARKETS, NO ESSENTIAL BUSINESSES , NOTHING.

niallo27 · 19-09-2020 11:32PM

Wolf359f wrote: »

You stated:

Who is 'we' and who 'choose them to die'?

Nursing homes, families. I know from personal experience that the nursing home would not be moving anyone to hospital if they are gone past a certain stage, just make life comfortable for them. 58%, you not think that's a huge number.

caveat emptor · 19-09-2020 11:33PM

Wolf359f wrote: »

I actually believe they (the government etc..) need to publish those figures, like they do with HCW's. Include cases transmitted in schools also.
The need the public/parents to know schools are safe and if not, the parents should know. Transparency is key.
I know initially it was very hard to get the number of HCW's who contracted Covid at work, but now it's in every briefing.

Yeah initially they said it was HCW contracting at home.nkthing to do with lack of PPE, then they said a large proportion actually contracted it at work.(nosocomial)

Shocker.

thelad95 · 19-09-2020 11:37PM

screamer wrote: »

But you cannot dent that there were elderly people who were not sent for treatment and left to die in their nursing homes as that was what was deemed best for them. That happened here, it is not lies, more a harsh truth. whereas Italy and Spain hospitalised and tried to treat a lot of such patients, to no great outcome it must be said.

This may come as a shock to you but elderly people already in care facilities are often not sent to hospital for treatment as to do so would more than likely only prolong their and their families' agony as they have very little chance of survival. This was done regularly with patients for all sorts of reasons such as the flu or a chest infection and has been done for centuries. My own grandmother was in this exact situation, she had a chest infection that it was clear she was not going to recover from and she was simply made comfortable at home.

The amount of people who have crawled out of the woodwork as barstool doctors and epidemiologists and tried to criticize experts opinions when in reality it takes decades of experience to start making informed decisions on these things.

Wolf359f · 19-09-2020 11:37PM

screamer wrote: »

But you cannot dent that there were elderly people who were not sent for treatment and left to die in their nursing homes as that was what was deemed best for them. That happened here, it is not lies, more a harsh truth. whereas Italy and Spain hospitalised and tried to treat a lot of such patients, to no great outcome it must be said.

They were not sent for treatment because they received the same treatment in their residence and moving them to hospital would have made no difference to their outcome. This happens every single day even before Covid.

The same way patients will die on a ward and not be moved to an ICU unit as there is no benefit to it.

ICU isn't a magic hail Mary option. patients are accessed if ICU care will benefit them.

To state they were left to die is extremely discourteous. If they were taken to hospital or ICU they most likely would have died in a strange bed, in a strange environment and surrounded by strange people.

History Queen · 19-09-2020 11:39PM

Wolf359f wrote: »

I actually believe they (the government etc..) need to publish those figures, like they do with HCW's. Include cases transmitted in schools also.
The need the public/parents to know schools are safe and if not, the parents should know. Transparency is key.
I know initially it was very hard to get the number of HCW's who contracted Covid at work, but now it's in every briefing.

And to be honest that's part of the anxiety some teachers have (can't speak for parents as I'm not a parent of school going children). It all feels very secretive, not being counted as close contacts of students you have spent substantial time with in a wholley inadequate environment, not being made aware of cases, school cases and clusters not being transparently communicated, I could go on.

One thing the ASTI action might achieve is putting pressure on the Government to be more transparent about what is happening in schools.

growleaves · 19-09-2020 11:40PM

Arghus wrote: »

Okay, you bemoan the supposed willingness of people to be swept away by emotion -

But yet make no attempt to actually answer his question in any kind of clear headed manner?

What has shouting "Savita was murdered" in all caps got to do with the question? Oh, I know, you're trying to infer a link between that incident and hysteria overriding sober analysis. Well, to tell you the truth you sound a bit hysterical yourself.

Your response has got nothing to do with scientific proofs.

Yeah well who brought violence into it? Come on like

It's a leading question. If I assumed lockdown made the difference then I would already be pro-lockdown obviously.

What I was initially discussing with John O. Groats was the quasi-lockdown we're in now.

mandrake04 · 19-09-2020 11:41PM

Dionaibh wrote: »

It's frightening what's going on in Victoria. That Andrews guy is out of control.

It’s self-flagellation....Victorians need to atone for taking a softcock attitude, the rest of Australia could have ended up like Europe.

caveat emptor · 19-09-2020 11:43PM

thelad95 wrote: »

With all the whining the GAA community did for months on end about how thousands of supporters could be let into GAA grounds with social distancing measures in place, they seriously seriously let themselves down in Limerick this evening.....

Look if I was losing out in 50 million euro a year you’d hear all sorts of wacky realities where it’s safe for people to congregate so long as I get my ticket sales.

Wolf359f · 19-09-2020 11:43PM

caveat emptor wrote: »

Yeah initially they said it was HCW contracting at home.nkthing to do with lack of PPE, then they said a large proportion actually contracted it at work.(nosocomial)

Shocker.

I believe there's 250,000 people who work in healthcare in Ireland, that's 1 in 20 people. So statically, with mass unchecked community spread we had in march, they could have easily picked it up in the community.

Queried · 19-09-2020 11:45PM

History Queen wrote: »

And to be honest that's part of the anxiety some teachers have (can't speak for parents as I'm not a parent of school going children). It all feels very secretive, not being counted as close contacts of students you have spent substantial time with in a wholley inadequate environment, not being made aware of cases, school cases and clusters not being transparently communicated, I could go on.

One thing the ASTI action might achieve is putting pressure on the Government to be more transparent about what is happening in schools.

I agree, the biggest issue I have as a teacher is the feeling that the wool is being pulled over my eyes. No transparency. We are finding out about the cases anyway, why don't they just report them? I'd trust decisions more if I knew we were being given all information and information wasn't being withheld.

caveat emptor · 19-09-2020 11:45PM

growleaves wrote: »

Yeah well who brought violence into it? Come on like

It's a leading question. If I assumed lockdown made the difference then I would already be pro-lockdown obviously.

What I was initially discussing with John O. Groats was the quasi-lockdown we're in now.

Who the **** could be described as pro lockdown? That’s a bull**** argument.

growleaves · 19-09-2020 11:48PM

caveat emptor wrote: »

Who the **** could be described as pro lockdown? That’s a bull**** argument.

More profanity. Can you calm down please?

In this case all I meant by pro-lockdown was 'in favour of lockdown for the purpose of flattening the curve'. Should be fairly clear from the context of the comment.

Wolf359f · 19-09-2020 11:50PM

History Queen wrote: »

And to be honest that's part of the anxiety some teachers have (can't speak for parents as I'm not a parent of school going children). It all feels very secretive, not being counted as close contacts of students you have spent substantial time with in a wholley inadequate environment, not being made aware of cases, school cases and clusters not being transparently communicated, I could go on.

One thing the ASTI action might achieve is putting pressure on the Government to be more transparent about what is happening in schools.

Once it's not a case of threatening to strike and the government announce a 10% rise and the strike ends... that would be just disgusting, if it was striking for safer conditions.

But I certainly believe they need to be transparent with figures of cases around school. The initial cases and even some in the future, will be from kids contracting covid at home and in the community. We only see the overall figures, so we don't know how many potentially caught it in school.

They have the ability to genetically trace the virus, so a teacher testing positive a few days after a student tested positive, would be a good way to track if they were connected.

Arghus · 19-09-2020 11:50PM

growleaves wrote: »

Yeah well who brought violence into it? Come on like

It's a leading question. If I assumed lockdown made the difference then I would already be pro-lockdown obviously.

What I was initially discussing with John O. Groats was the quasi-lockdown we're in now.

What has violence got to do with the point I was making? I never mentioned the word.

growleaves · 19-09-2020 11:54PM

Arghus wrote: »

What has violence got to do with the point I was making? I never mentioned the word.

I was referencing the earlier comment by froog.

Its late.

Perhaps these discussions are pointless. No one ever changes their mind about anything.

Wolf359f · 19-09-2020 11:54PM

Queried wrote: »

I agree, the biggest issue I have as a teacher is the feeling that the wool is being pulled over my eyes. No transparency. We are finding out about the cases anyway, why don't they just report them? I'd trust decisions more if I knew we were being given all information and information wasn't being withheld.

Well I never, I'm siding with 2 teachers now!
I'm sure HCW's and their unions went through the same initial issue with getting the government to be transparent and I do believe it's in everyone best interest if they publicly acknowledge cases in schools etc...
They have more to loose from hiding it.

Arghus · 19-09-2020 11:59PM

growleaves wrote: »

Perhaps these discussions are pointless. No one ever changes their mind about anything.

These sentiments I can agree with.

caveat emptor · 19-09-2020 11:59PM

growleaves wrote: »

More profanity. Can you calm down please?

In this case all I meant by pro-lockdown was 'in favour of lockdown for the purpose of flattening the curve'. Should be fairly clear from the context of the comment.

I'm so so so so sorry. Painting people as 'pro-lockdown' is ridiculous. We all know people affected directly. Saying people are for it is ridiculous.

Plumbthedepths · 20-09-2020 12:02AM

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Shirley two weeks of an actual stay at home order for the whole country sorts this. This is what Wuhan did, NO ONE ALLOWED OUT,
HOUSE ARREST THE WHOLE COUNTRY FOR TWO WEEKS.

NO SUPERMARKETS, NO ESSENTIAL BUSINESSES , NOTHING.

I hope the above idiocy is an attempt at sarcasm.

Queried · 20-09-2020 12:03AM

Wolf359f wrote: »

Well I never, I'm siding with 2 teachers now!
I'm sure HCW's and their unions went through the same initial issue with getting the government to be transparent and I do believe it's in everyone best interest if they publicly acknowledge cases in schools etc...
They have more to loose from hiding it.

:pac: glad to hear you agree. It's nice to have some support. For sure, transparency is key. Without it you question everything; it's hard to feel at ease when you know that you're not being given the full story, it makes you question why. I get that schools needed to open and I'm glad that they are but at least give us the respect we deserve by letting us know what we're dealing with. People give out about people being hysterical but lack of clear information is what leads to people filling in the blanks for themselves.

CiarraiManc · 20-09-2020 12:05AM

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

I hope the above idiocy is an attempt at sarcasm.

No plumbthedepths, people are allowed to have different opinions other than what you and ACE have

growleaves · 20-09-2020 12:10AM

caveat emptor wrote: »

I'm so so so so sorry. Painting people as 'pro-lockdown' is ridiculous. We all know people affected directly. Saying people are for it is ridiculous.

I've already clarified what I meant, it was shorthand for favouring lockdown as a necessary policy - not painting people as personally wanting or enjoying it.

If you still don't get it after this then I can only assume you're trolling.

Away With The Fairies · 20-09-2020 12:11AM

Just having a look at this 5 level plan online.

Looking at level 5, which I presume is the worst level. Can anyone explain why schools remain open at level 5?

Wolf359f · 20-09-2020 12:12AM

Queried wrote: »

:pac: glad to hear you agree. It's nice to have some support. For sure, transparency is key. Without it you question everything; it's hard to feel at ease when you know that you're not being given the full story, it makes you question why. I get that schools needed to open and I'm glad that they are but at least give us the respect we deserve by letting us know what we're dealing with. People give out about people being hysterical but lack of clear information is what leads to people filling in the blanks for themselves.

Oh this whole thread survives by people filling in the blanks!
On the transparency, I can't disagree. It has to be open and honest and stop the worry and fear, but also, if cases start coming from schools, teachers and parents need to know.

From reading the RTE article, and it ending with pay issues. Teachers will not get any sympathy from that demand. There's over 200,000 still willing to work, but can't. Over 400,000 couldn't work, while teachers were on their 2/3 month break with full pay etc... So you can see where the general public may be against you!

Plumbthedepths · 20-09-2020 12:13AM

CiarraiManc wrote: »

No plumbthedepths, people are allowed to have different opinions other than what you and ACE have

So closing Supermarkets, essential business is ok? my challenging such a comment is just a different opinion? Dude when you wish to have some credibility and longevity as a WUM you also have to have some cop on. Sadly you are lacking. Try harder next time ask some of the more established WUM for pointers. Try the lad that posts false tweets he has a loyal following.

GT89 · 20-09-2020 12:14AM

Away With The Fairies wrote: »

Just having a look at this 5 level plan online.

Looking at level 5, which I presume is the worst level. Can anyone explain why schools remain open at level 5?

It's 5 levels of treason if u ask me

Wolf359f · 20-09-2020 12:18AM

Away With The Fairies wrote: »

Just having a look at this 5 level plan online.

Looking at level 5, which I presume is the worst level. Can anyone explain why schools remain open at level 5?

This 5 point plan started as a 6 point plan (2.5 for Dublin), it's now a 7 point plan (3.5 for Dublin), by the time we get to stage 5..... jesus we'll be well into a 50+ point plan. It will be 5.2 and schools be open, 5.3 only primary, 5.4 primary schools going hybrid, 5.5 remote only... and so on.

Queried · 20-09-2020 12:30AM

Wolf359f wrote: »

Oh this whole thread survives by people filling in the blanks!
On the transparency, I can't disagree. It has to be open and honest and stop the worry and fear, but also, if cases start coming from schools, teachers and parents need to know.

From reading the RTE article, and it ending with pay issues. Teachers will not get any sympathy from that demand. There's over 200,000 still willing to work, but can't. Over 400,000 couldn't work, while teachers were on their 2/3 month break with full pay etc... So you can see where the general public may be against you!

I hear you with regards to people wanting to work and not being able to and it's awful. I'm so grateful to be employed and in the profession I'm in, particularly as I really do love my job. I suppose it's just the general idea from the public that teachers have no desire to work and contribute to society during these times. It's not true for the vast majority, I personally would just like to feel safer at work. I'll be there every day regardless but I do feel disappointed by the lack of acknowledgement of the reality regarding schools.

Edit: I'm a primary teacher and not in the union that's planning a strike, just to clarify.

spookwoman · 20-09-2020 12:38AM

thelad95 wrote: »

This may come as a shock to you but elderly people already in care facilities are often not sent to hospital for treatment as to do so would more than likely only prolong their and their families' agony as they have very little chance of survival. This was done regularly with patients for all sorts of reasons such as the flu or a chest infection and has been done for centuries. My own grandmother was in this exact situation, she had a chest infection that it was clear she was not going to recover from and she was simply made comfortable at home.

The amount of people who have crawled out of the woodwork as barstool doctors and epidemiologists and tried to criticize experts opinions when in reality it takes decades of experience to start making informed decisions on these things.

There is a difference between pre covid times and now. The handling of nursing homes was a disaster. Families were told they would no be sending residents to hospital if they got sick. HSE told homes to manage the disease themselves and "only transfer residents to hospitals where this would “confer additional benefit". We know some doctors would not even got into the homes to sign death certs and it was left to nurses.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/covid-19-and-care-homes-six-key-questions-1.4231703

We also know that some patients were sent back to the homes because they did not meet the criteria. The homes were looking for help because their own staff were out sick and they could hardly look after their residents.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/hospital-sent-patient-back-to-nursing-home-during-outbreak-1.4311916

What chance of survival was there were all this was happening. Residents in these homes should have been given the access to hospital care as others.

Covid 19 Part XXIII-33,444 in ROI(1,792 deaths) 9,541 in NI(577 deaths)(22/09)Read OP

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