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Covid 19 Part XXIII-33,444 in ROI(1,792 deaths) 9,541 in NI(577 deaths)(22/09)Read OP

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Comments

  • #7682
    Wolf359f
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,439 ✭✭✭Wolf359f


    niallo27 wrote: »
    What lies, I never said it was a lack of resources. 58% is a pretty huge number would you not agree. How many of these patients were end of life patients.

    You stated:
    We are chosing who dies here for months, 58% of the people who died of covid didn't go to hospital, we choose for them to die
    Who is 'we' and who 'choose them to die'?


  • #7683
    screamer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,193 ✭✭✭screamer


    Wolf359f wrote: »
    Enough of these lies. Not everyone's best interest is being brought to hospital and not everyone's best interest is being brought to ICU.
    The patient and family also have a say.
    You make it sounds like our doctors are all Harold Shipmans or something.
    There's a massive difference between triaging patients based on resources available (like in Italy at the worse of it) and triaging a patient for the best of their health and comfort.

    But you cannot dent that there were elderly people who were not sent for treatment and left to die in their nursing homes as that was what was deemed best for them. That happened here, it is not lies, more a harsh truth. whereas Italy and Spain hospitalised and tried to treat a lot of such patients, to no great outcome it must be said.


  • #7684
    Wolf359f
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,439 ✭✭✭Wolf359f


    History Queen wrote: »
    Don't think they are publishing numbers of teachers.

    I actually believe they (the government etc..) need to publish those figures, like they do with HCW's. Include cases transmitted in schools also.
    The need the public/parents to know schools are safe and if not, the parents should know. Transparency is key.
    I know initially it was very hard to get the number of HCW's who contracted Covid at work, but now it's in every briefing.


  • #7685
    History Queen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,488 ✭✭✭History Queen


    thelad95 wrote: »
    With all the whining the GAA community did for months on end about how thousands of supporters could be let into GAA grounds with social distancing measures in place, they seriously seriously let themselves down in Limerick this evening.....

    I saw this earlier and thought the same, regardless of what a person or organisation may think of the regulations, at least comply for selfish reasons such as being able to keep your own stadiums open or to watch the sport you love!


  • #7686
    BorneTobyWilde
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,836 ✭✭✭✭BorneTobyWilde


    Shirley two weeks of an actual stay at home order for the whole country sorts this. This is what Wuhan did, NO ONE ALLOWED OUT,
    HOUSE ARREST THE WHOLE COUNTRY FOR TWO WEEKS.

    NO SUPERMARKETS, NO ESSENTIAL BUSINESSES , NOTHING.


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  • #7687
    niallo27
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,139 ✭✭✭✭niallo27


    Wolf359f wrote: »
    You stated:

    Who is 'we' and who 'choose them to die'?

    Nursing homes, families. I know from personal experience that the nursing home would not be moving anyone to hospital if they are gone past a certain stage, just make life comfortable for them. 58%, you not think that's a huge number.


  • #7688
    caveat emptor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,134 ✭✭✭caveat emptor


    Wolf359f wrote: »
    I actually believe they (the government etc..) need to publish those figures, like they do with HCW's. Include cases transmitted in schools also.
    The need the public/parents to know schools are safe and if not, the parents should know. Transparency is key.
    I know initially it was very hard to get the number of HCW's who contracted Covid at work, but now it's in every briefing.



    Yeah initially they said it was HCW contracting at home.nkthing to do with lack of PPE, then they said a large proportion actually contracted it at work.(nosocomial)

    Shocker.


  • #7689
    thelad95
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,812 ✭✭✭thelad95


    screamer wrote: »
    But you cannot dent that there were elderly people who were not sent for treatment and left to die in their nursing homes as that was what was deemed best for them. That happened here, it is not lies, more a harsh truth. whereas Italy and Spain hospitalised and tried to treat a lot of such patients, to no great outcome it must be said.

    This may come as a shock to you but elderly people already in care facilities are often not sent to hospital for treatment as to do so would more than likely only prolong their and their families' agony as they have very little chance of survival. This was done regularly with patients for all sorts of reasons such as the flu or a chest infection and has been done for centuries. My own grandmother was in this exact situation, she had a chest infection that it was clear she was not going to recover from and she was simply made comfortable at home.

    The amount of people who have crawled out of the woodwork as barstool doctors and epidemiologists and tried to criticize experts opinions when in reality it takes decades of experience to start making informed decisions on these things.


  • #7690
    Wolf359f
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,439 ✭✭✭Wolf359f


    screamer wrote: »
    But you cannot dent that there were elderly people who were not sent for treatment and left to die in their nursing homes as that was what was deemed best for them. That happened here, it is not lies, more a harsh truth. whereas Italy and Spain hospitalised and tried to treat a lot of such patients, to no great outcome it must be said.

    They were not sent for treatment because they received the same treatment in their residence and moving them to hospital would have made no difference to their outcome. This happens every single day even before Covid.

    The same way patients will die on a ward and not be moved to an ICU unit as there is no benefit to it.

    ICU isn't a magic hail Mary option. patients are accessed if ICU care will benefit them.

    To state they were left to die is extremely discourteous. If they were taken to hospital or ICU they most likely would have died in a strange bed, in a strange environment and surrounded by strange people.


  • #7691
    History Queen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,488 ✭✭✭History Queen


    Wolf359f wrote: »
    I actually believe they (the government etc..) need to publish those figures, like they do with HCW's. Include cases transmitted in schools also.
    The need the public/parents to know schools are safe and if not, the parents should know. Transparency is key.
    I know initially it was very hard to get the number of HCW's who contracted Covid at work, but now it's in every briefing.

    And to be honest that's part of the anxiety some teachers have (can't speak for parents as I'm not a parent of school going children). It all feels very secretive, not being counted as close contacts of students you have spent substantial time with in a wholley inadequate environment, not being made aware of cases, school cases and clusters not being transparently communicated, I could go on.

    One thing the ASTI action might achieve is putting pressure on the Government to be more transparent about what is happening in schools.


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  • #7692
    growleaves
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,016 ✭✭✭growleaves


    Arghus wrote: »
    Okay, you bemoan the supposed willingness of people to be swept away by emotion -

    But yet make no attempt to actually answer his question in any kind of clear headed manner?

    What has shouting "Savita was murdered" in all caps got to do with the question? Oh, I know, you're trying to infer a link between that incident and hysteria overriding sober analysis. Well, to tell you the truth you sound a bit hysterical yourself.

    Your response has got nothing to do with scientific proofs.

    Yeah well who brought violence into it? Come on like

    It's a leading question. If I assumed lockdown made the difference then I would already be pro-lockdown obviously.

    What I was initially discussing with John O. Groats was the quasi-lockdown we're in now.


  • #7693
    mandrake04
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,435 ✭✭✭mandrake04


    Dionaibh wrote: »
    It's frightening what's going on in Victoria. That Andrews guy is out of control.

    It’s self-flagellation....Victorians need to atone for taking a softcock attitude, the rest of Australia could have ended up like Europe.


  • #7694
    caveat emptor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,134 ✭✭✭caveat emptor


    thelad95 wrote: »
    With all the whining the GAA community did for months on end about how thousands of supporters could be let into GAA grounds with social distancing measures in place, they seriously seriously let themselves down in Limerick this evening.....

    Look if I was losing out in 50 million euro a year you’d hear all sorts of wacky realities where it’s safe for people to congregate so long as I get my ticket sales.


  • #7695
    Wolf359f
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,439 ✭✭✭Wolf359f


    caveat emptor wrote: »
    Yeah initially they said it was HCW contracting at home.nkthing to do with lack of PPE, then they said a large proportion actually contracted it at work.(nosocomial)

    Shocker.

    I believe there's 250,000 people who work in healthcare in Ireland, that's 1 in 20 people. So statically, with mass unchecked community spread we had in march, they could have easily picked it up in the community.


  • #7696
    Queried
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 241 ✭✭Queried


    History Queen wrote: »
    And to be honest that's part of the anxiety some teachers have (can't speak for parents as I'm not a parent of school going children). It all feels very secretive, not being counted as close contacts of students you have spent substantial time with in a wholley inadequate environment, not being made aware of cases, school cases and clusters not being transparently communicated, I could go on.

    One thing the ASTI action might achieve is putting pressure on the Government to be more transparent about what is happening in schools.

    I agree, the biggest issue I have as a teacher is the feeling that the wool is being pulled over my eyes. No transparency. We are finding out about the cases anyway, why don't they just report them? I'd trust decisions more if I knew we were being given all information and information wasn't being withheld.


  • #7697
    caveat emptor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,134 ✭✭✭caveat emptor


    growleaves wrote: »
    Yeah well who brought violence into it? Come on like

    It's a leading question. If I assumed lockdown made the difference then I would already be pro-lockdown obviously.

    What I was initially discussing with John O. Groats was the quasi-lockdown we're in now.

    Who the **** could be described as pro lockdown? That’s a bull**** argument.


  • #7698
    growleaves
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,016 ✭✭✭growleaves


    caveat emptor wrote: »
    Who the **** could be described as pro lockdown? That’s a bull**** argument.

    More profanity. Can you calm down please?

    In this case all I meant by pro-lockdown was 'in favour of lockdown for the purpose of flattening the curve'. Should be fairly clear from the context of the comment.


  • #7699
    Wolf359f
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,439 ✭✭✭Wolf359f


    History Queen wrote: »
    And to be honest that's part of the anxiety some teachers have (can't speak for parents as I'm not a parent of school going children). It all feels very secretive, not being counted as close contacts of students you have spent substantial time with in a wholley inadequate environment, not being made aware of cases, school cases and clusters not being transparently communicated, I could go on.

    One thing the ASTI action might achieve is putting pressure on the Government to be more transparent about what is happening in schools.

    Once it's not a case of threatening to strike and the government announce a 10% rise and the strike ends... that would be just disgusting, if it was striking for safer conditions.

    But I certainly believe they need to be transparent with figures of cases around school. The initial cases and even some in the future, will be from kids contracting covid at home and in the community. We only see the overall figures, so we don't know how many potentially caught it in school.

    They have the ability to genetically trace the virus, so a teacher testing positive a few days after a student tested positive, would be a good way to track if they were connected.


  • #7700
    Arghus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,251 ✭✭✭✭Arghus


    growleaves wrote: »
    Yeah well who brought violence into it? Come on like

    It's a leading question. If I assumed lockdown made the difference then I would already be pro-lockdown obviously.

    What I was initially discussing with John O. Groats was the quasi-lockdown we're in now.

    What has violence got to do with the point I was making? I never mentioned the word.


  • #7701
    growleaves
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,016 ✭✭✭growleaves


    Arghus wrote: »
    What has violence got to do with the point I was making? I never mentioned the word.

    I was referencing the earlier comment by froog.

    Its late.

    Perhaps these discussions are pointless. No one ever changes their mind about anything.


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  • #7702
    Wolf359f
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,439 ✭✭✭Wolf359f


    Queried wrote: »
    I agree, the biggest issue I have as a teacher is the feeling that the wool is being pulled over my eyes. No transparency. We are finding out about the cases anyway, why don't they just report them? I'd trust decisions more if I knew we were being given all information and information wasn't being withheld.

    Well I never, I'm siding with 2 teachers now!
    I'm sure HCW's and their unions went through the same initial issue with getting the government to be transparent and I do believe it's in everyone best interest if they publicly acknowledge cases in schools etc...
    They have more to loose from hiding it.


  • #7703
    Arghus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,251 ✭✭✭✭Arghus


    growleaves wrote: »

    Perhaps these discussions are pointless. No one ever changes their mind about anything.

    These sentiments I can agree with.


  • #7704
    caveat emptor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,134 ✭✭✭caveat emptor


    growleaves wrote: »
    More profanity. Can you calm down please?

    In this case all I meant by pro-lockdown was 'in favour of lockdown for the purpose of flattening the curve'. Should be fairly clear from the context of the comment.

    I'm so so so so sorry. Painting people as 'pro-lockdown' is ridiculous. We all know people affected directly. Saying people are for it is ridiculous.


  • #7705
    Plumbthedepths
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    BorneTobyWilde wrote: »
    Shirley two weeks of an actual stay at home order for the whole country sorts this. This is what Wuhan did, NO ONE ALLOWED OUT,
    HOUSE ARREST THE WHOLE COUNTRY FOR TWO WEEKS.

    NO SUPERMARKETS, NO ESSENTIAL BUSINESSES , NOTHING.

    I hope the above idiocy is an attempt at sarcasm.


  • #7706
    Queried
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 241 ✭✭Queried


    Wolf359f wrote: »
    Well I never, I'm siding with 2 teachers now!
    I'm sure HCW's and their unions went through the same initial issue with getting the government to be transparent and I do believe it's in everyone best interest if they publicly acknowledge cases in schools etc...
    They have more to loose from hiding it.

    :pac: glad to hear you agree. It's nice to have some support. For sure, transparency is key. Without it you question everything; it's hard to feel at ease when you know that you're not being given the full story, it makes you question why. I get that schools needed to open and I'm glad that they are but at least give us the respect we deserve by letting us know what we're dealing with. People give out about people being hysterical but lack of clear information is what leads to people filling in the blanks for themselves.


  • #7707
    CiarraiManc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 204 ✭✭CiarraiManc


    Plumbthedepths wrote: »
    I hope the above idiocy is an attempt at sarcasm.

    No plumbthedepths, people are allowed to have different opinions other than what you and ACE have


  • #7708
    growleaves
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,016 ✭✭✭growleaves


    caveat emptor wrote: »
    I'm so so so so sorry. Painting people as 'pro-lockdown' is ridiculous. We all know people affected directly. Saying people are for it is ridiculous.

    I've already clarified what I meant, it was shorthand for favouring lockdown as a necessary policy - not painting people as personally wanting or enjoying it.

    If you still don't get it after this then I can only assume you're trolling.


  • #7709
    Away With The Fairies
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,077 ✭✭✭Away With The Fairies


    Just having a look at this 5 level plan online.

    Looking at level 5, which I presume is the worst level. Can anyone explain why schools remain open at level 5?


  • #7710
    Wolf359f
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,439 ✭✭✭Wolf359f


    Queried wrote: »
    :pac: glad to hear you agree. It's nice to have some support. For sure, transparency is key. Without it you question everything; it's hard to feel at ease when you know that you're not being given the full story, it makes you question why. I get that schools needed to open and I'm glad that they are but at least give us the respect we deserve by letting us know what we're dealing with. People give out about people being hysterical but lack of clear information is what leads to people filling in the blanks for themselves.

    Oh this whole thread survives by people filling in the blanks!
    On the transparency, I can't disagree. It has to be open and honest and stop the worry and fear, but also, if cases start coming from schools, teachers and parents need to know.

    From reading the RTE article, and it ending with pay issues. Teachers will not get any sympathy from that demand. There's over 200,000 still willing to work, but can't. Over 400,000 couldn't work, while teachers were on their 2/3 month break with full pay etc... So you can see where the general public may be against you!


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  • #7711
    Plumbthedepths
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    CiarraiManc wrote: »
    No plumbthedepths, people are allowed to have different opinions other than what you and ACE have

    So closing Supermarkets, essential business is ok? my challenging such a comment is just a different opinion? Dude when you wish to have some credibility and longevity as a WUM you also have to have some cop on. Sadly you are lacking. Try harder next time ask some of the more established WUM for pointers. Try the lad that posts false tweets he has a loyal following.


This discussion has been closed.
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