How will schools be able to go back in September? (Continued)

brookers · 19-09-2020 09:43PM

Why cant we all be honest, including the government, the main reason why schools are open is childcare, two people working from home can not teach kids and mind them whilst they have to make presentations and go on important zoom calls. Then you have other parents who just dont want their kids around and I actually know some parents who get wound up if they are with their kids all day long. They want to go swimming in the sea, they want to meet their friends, do yoga and exercise classes. The reason people incuding journalists get so fired up about tteachers and not retail workers, is that teachers are minding their kids. Missing out on an education is always being peddled as the great moral reason why kids should be in school but the real reason is childcare. if that was sorted when schools close, teachers would not be hated so much.

JJJackal · 19-09-2020 09:44PM

Smacruairi wrote: »

I agree. Shops and businesses are mitigating risk. Schools are not allowed to by having the same classes as before. So you'll join me in demanding better conditions for students and teachers in schools right? No one wants schools fully closed. No one thinks that the disease can be totally eliminated yet. Everyone is entitled to a safe working environment, and a safe environment to learn.

So again, why do hospitals and restaurants have restrictions but schools don't.

So schools are operating exactly as they were pre covid?

niamh247 · 19-09-2020 09:44PM

JJJackal wrote: »

The risk of keeping schools closed includes limiting their social development, hindering educational progression and learning and limiting physical activity.

If children don't have interactions with children their own age (already 6 months) how will they grow and develop into healthy adults.

Unfortunately, school is a key part of childcare too

Interactions can be maintained, by moving the schooling to online till things are settled a bit. Why does Ireland think in such archaic ways?

Smacruairi · 19-09-2020 09:45PM

JJJackal wrote: »

Primary and secondary school education is by and large not a business.

Non essential businesses although enjoyable and akey part of society such as bars need only operate when they can keep the risk as close to 0 as possible.

Education is essential- this is clear - it allows us to value society diversity and all the rest I have outlined. Essential activities such as education need to operate to mitigate the risk.

Businesses you speak of also don't involve very young children. I am not sure if masks on a 5 year old would be more of a hazard or a benefit

Hospitals are not businesses either. They have drastically altered their protocols around visitation rights, accompanying patients, visitation etc. Essential service we both agree.

So why are schools not allowed to proceed in a similar way to ensure the safety of the students? Most GPs will tell you to stay away from a surgery and do things by phone. So again why are schools not safeguarding students and workers in a proper manner?

JJJackal · 19-09-2020 09:47PM

niamh247 wrote: »

I'm suggesting to move the schools online until we figure out this virus better, as is being done in other sensible countries. I don't see why this can't be done.

have all children broadband computers etc?

What if we don't figure the virus out for 2 years?

A child who hasn't neet other children for 2 years?

What sensible countries are you referring to?

dubrov · 19-09-2020 09:47PM

What are the proposals to improve safety for teachers/students in schools?

Smacruairi · 19-09-2020 09:48PM

JJJackal wrote: »

So schools are operating exactly as they were pre covid?

In terms of having a full cohort of students and workers, yes. I don't know any other sector of employment who attaches "where possible" to their protocols. It is either adhere to the regulations, or shut down.

Hospitals don't say "only 7 to a ward... But if there's more just throw them in, it's grand".

JJJackal · 19-09-2020 09:49PM

Smacruairi wrote: »

Hospitals are not businesses either. They have drastically altered their protocols around visitation rights, accompanying patients, visitation etc. Essential service we both agree.

So why are schools not allowed to proceed in a similar way to ensure the safety of the students? Most GPs will tell you to stay away from a surgery and do things by phone. So again why are schools not safeguarding students and workers in a proper manner?

Do schools operate exactly as they did pre covid?

niamh247 · 19-09-2020 09:49PM

brookers wrote: »

Why cant we all be honest, including the government, the main reason why schools are open is childcare, two people working from home can not teach kids and mind them whilst they have to make presentations and go on important zoom calls. Then you have other parents who just dont want their kids around and I actually know some parents who get wound up if they are with their kids all day long. They want to go swimming in the sea, they want to meet their friends, do yoga and exercise classes. The reason people incuding journalists get so fired up about tteachers and not retail workers, is that teachers are minding their kids. Missing out on an education is always being peddled as the great moral reason why kids should be in school but the real reason is childcare. if that was sorted when schools close, teachers would not be hated so much.

To treat school as a child-care centre and to desire kids to be away is the horrible and pathetic social/family situation. Schools should remain a learning service only, but not some forced camp enforced with some obsessive reasons.

dubrov · 19-09-2020 09:49PM

niamh247 wrote: »

I'm suggesting to move the schools online until we figure out this virus better, as is being done in other sensible countries. I don't see why this can't be done.

Can you reference a country that has moved its Primary schooling online?

Smacruairi · 19-09-2020 09:49PM

JJJackal wrote: »

Do schools operate exactly as they did pre covid?

See above.

DebDynamite · 19-09-2020 09:50PM

brookers wrote: »

Why cant we all be honest, including the government, the main reason why schools are open is childcare, two people working from home can not teach kids and mind them whilst they have to make presentations and go on important zoom calls. Then you have other parents who just dont want their kids around and I actually know some parents who get wound up if they are with their kids all day long. They want to go swimming in the sea, they want to meet their friends, do yoga and exercise classes. The reason people incuding journalists get so fired up about tteachers and not retail workers, is that teachers are minding their kids. Missing out on an education is always being peddled as the great moral reason why kids should be in school but the real reason is childcare. if that was sorted when schools close, teachers would not be hated so much.

Right... nothing at all to do with children getting an education, or it it being vital for their development.

Any kids I knew were so happy to be going back. And driving to work seeing them all going to school in the morning, they just looked delighted to be going back after such a long absence. Unless schools are proven to be a major driver of cases, it’s cruel to deny children that, imo.

jrosen · 19-09-2020 09:52PM

niamh247 wrote: »

I'm suggesting to move the schools online until we figure out this virus better, as is being done in other sensible countries. I don't see why this can't be done.

You are not comparing like with like. We are not set up for on line teaching. There were huge differences in the approaches of individual schools/teachers. So until that changes students across Ireland will not have equal access to education.

Then there are kids who simply dont have the support at home, the only way they would ever receive an education is by being in the classroom with a teacher.

Add to that the thousands of families who work and have planned and organized their work life and childcare around school schedules. We have a shortage of childcare also. Its an industry that already can not meet demands. Where do you think all the kids will go too if school closes? Who will look after them if their parents work? Who will guide them, keep them on track with their school work if their parents work?

Even if their parents can work from home do you expect those parents to hold down full time jobs and also care for their kids and deliver an education at the same time?

The reality is this is about so much more than teachers. Schools closing will have a domino effect for every family and employers of parents across Ireland. It will have a huge impact on students, especially those in exam years.

JJJackal · 19-09-2020 09:52PM

Smacruairi wrote: »

In terms of having a full cohort of students and workers, yes. I don't know any other sector of employment who attaches "where possible" to their protocols. It is either adhere to the regulations, or shut down.

Hospitals don't say "only 7 to a ward... But if there's more just throw them in, it's grand".

Hospitals don't turn patients away... so yes if there is more they throw them in. This is well known. Its on the news all the time.

I believe that most public services have where possible. Again see Hospitals etc.

JJJackal · 19-09-2020 09:54PM

Smacruairi wrote: »

See above.

saying you have a full cohort of students and teachers does not mean you operate in the same way.

My local experience tells me schools have changed substantialy renting new premises, converting gyms etc etc. Using innovative methods to mitigate risk

Smacruairi · 19-09-2020 09:56PM

JJJackal wrote: »

Hospitals don't turn patients away... so yes if there is more they throw them in. This is well known. Its on the news all the time.

I believe that most public services have where possible. Again see Hospitals etc.

Emergencies they don't turn away. Regular preplanned things, yes they must certainly do turn away. Don't be so intentionally obtuse. Look at the amount of surgeries cancelled!

Public transport, another essential service, operating at 25% capacity I believe. All cultural and religious buildings severely curtailed. Schools at 100% exactly how it was. So again, why are you happy for all other sectors to be allowed to adapt, but schools not.

Smacruairi · 19-09-2020 09:57PM

JJJackal wrote: »

saying you have a full cohort of students and teachers does not mean you operate in the same way.

My local experience tells me schools have changed substantialy renting new premises, converting gyms etc etc. Using innovative methods to mitigate risk

Your anecdotal evidence means nothing when the numbers are all the exact same.

JJJackal · 19-09-2020 09:59PM

Smacruairi wrote: »

Emergencies they don't turn away. Regular preplanned things, yes they must certainly do turn away. Don't be so intentionally obtuse. Look at the amount of surgeries cancelled!

Public transport, another essential service, operating at 25% capacity I believe. All cultural and religious buildings severely curtailed. Schools at 100% exactly how it was. So again, why are you happy for all other sectors to be allowed to adapt, but schools not.

Surgeries are cancelled all the time. This is true. At times of surges. If the hospital is full and patients present they will be admitted.

Schools are not 100% how they are.

Buses don't need to operate at 100% capacity at present

niamh247 · 19-09-2020 10:00PM

dubrov wrote: »

Can you reference a country that has moved its Primary schooling online?

Strictly speaking, primary schooling should not be taken seriously at all. Skipping a few more months should not matter. Countries such as South Korea, states in USA have decided on online schooling.

But the bigger problem is, parents seem to think that more time to spend with their kids is a problem instead of an opportunity to make better bonds and impart values.

wirelessdude01 · 19-09-2020 10:01PM

JJJackal wrote: »

Do schools operate exactly as they did pre covid?

At primary level, additional handwashing, hand sanitising and staggered breaks are the only real difference. No social distancing, still the same class sizes.

JJJackal · 19-09-2020 10:01PM

Smacruairi wrote: »

Your anecdotal evidence means nothing when the numbers are all the exact same.

if you have the same number of people in larger spaces... it is a fact that some schools are operating in larger spaces

You don't necessarily need more people. Its more space for the same number of people

wirelessdude01 · 19-09-2020 10:04PM

JJJackal wrote: »

Using innovative methods to mitigate risk

So tell us what these innovative methods are?

JJJackal · 19-09-2020 10:05PM

niamh247 wrote: »

Strictly speaking, primary schooling should not be taken seriously at all. Skipping a few more months should not matter. Countries such as South Korea, states in USA have decided on online schooling.

But the bigger problem is, parents seem to think that more time to spend with their kids is a problem instead of an opportunity to make better bonds and impart values.

I do not believe that any country has a plan for prolonged home schooling. South zkorea was due to go back to class rooms in September?

Smacruairi · 19-09-2020 10:06PM

JJJackal wrote: »

Surgeries are cancelled all the time. This is true. At times of surges. If the hospital is full and patients present they will be admitted.

Schools are not 100% how they are.

Buses don't need to operate at 100% capacity at present

They won't be put in a bed beside another person. They're left on trollies in the waiting area.

Buses don't need to operate? Neither do schools, half in half out would be fine, but that's not happening. So why? 1/2 days at home remotely accessing would not harm the social aspect at secondary level, but that's not an option.

So again, why do you think schools should be outside of all other sectors and their protocols.

JJJackal · 19-09-2020 10:06PM

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

So tell us what these innovative methods are?

I only know how one school works. So this is fact. The school removes 5 pupils per class. These 5 pupils watch the lecture from a pc suite. The 5 students rotate. Thus there is social distancing

niamh247 · 19-09-2020 10:08PM

jrosen wrote: »

You are not comparing like with like. We are not set up for on line teaching. There were huge differences in the approaches of individual schools/teachers. So until that changes students across Ireland will not have equal access to education.

Then there are kids who simply dont have the support at home, the only way they would ever receive an education is by being in the classroom with a teacher.

Add to that the thousands of families who work and have planned and organized their work life and childcare around school schedules. We have a shortage of childcare also. Its an industry that already can not meet demands. Where do you think all the kids will go too if school closes? Who will look after them if their parents work? Who will guide them, keep them on track with their school work if their parents work?

Even if their parents can work from home do you expect those parents to hold down full time jobs and also care for their kids and deliver an education at the same time?

The reality is this is about so much more than teachers. Schools closing will have a domino effect for every family and employers of parents across Ireland. It will have a huge impact on students, especially those in exam years.

Not every family might be in that situation, wishing to get their kids off their back at the cost of taking risk of infections in the household. In such case, government should not force families to send their their kids to school with mandatory attendance policy. That is insensitive to the risk of infections to older and vulnerable family members of the school kids.

Also, the quoted reasoning means the real reason is not about children safety or education, but to enable parents to return to work. Government need to be more candid about this and recognize the needs of families who would prefer online education for the time-being temporarily.

Also we are turning into a society which can not mind their elderly and younger family members forcing everyone to hang out with their age-group people from outside the family. This is also the reason for teenager problem in this country.

Smacruairi · 19-09-2020 10:09PM

JJJackal wrote: »

I only know how one school works. So this is fact. The school removes 5 pupils per class. These 5 pupils watch the lecture from a pc suite. The 5 students rotate. Thus there is social distancing

Sounds like a very privileged school. Who is supervising them? Is it 5 from all classes? If you have 2 classes per year group that's 60 kids at secondary level. Is that 3 new classrooms being supervised by 3 extra teachers? Where did they get the allocations for those teachers? They are lucky they have 3 extra rooms sitting idle.

JJJackal · 19-09-2020 10:12PM

Smacruairi wrote: »

They won't be put in a bed beside another person. They're left on trollies in the waiting area.

Buses don't need to operate? Neither do schools, half in half out would be fine, but that's not happening. So why? 1/2 days at home remotely accessing would not harm the social aspect at secondary level, but that's not an option.

So again, why do you think schools should be outside of all other sectors and their protocols.

Have you bern in the 'waiting area'? The waiting areas are corridors.

Well buses don't need full capacity due to decreased demand. If the bus only needs to carry 10 people it can easily operate at reduced capacity. That is why.

100% of students still need their education.

All other industries where workers have not been able to work, have put their workers on the covid payment . I suspect you agree that teachers should be treated like all other businesses in this reagard? If they can't work in a safe environment like bars etc

JJJackal · 19-09-2020 10:13PM

niamh247 wrote: »

Not every family might be in that situation, wishing to get their kids off their back at the cost of taking risk of infections in the household. In such case, government should not force families to send their their kids to school with mandatory attendance policy. That is insensitive to the risk of infections to older and vulnerable family members of the school kids.

Also, the quoted reasoning means the real reason is not about children safety or education, but to enable parents to return to work. Government need to be more candid about this and recognize the needs of families who would prefer online education for the time-being temporarily.

any family can home school their children. Lots of kids are home schooled

Blondini · 19-09-2020 10:15PM

Jaysus the thread has gone crazy this Saturday evening.

The only thing worse than an imbecelic teacher-bashing cretin is a drunk imbecelic teacher-bashing cretin.

How will schools be able to go back in September? (Continued)

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