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Donald Trump Presidency discussion Thread VIII (threadbanned users listed in OP)

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    #3542
    abff
    Registered Users Posts: 5,728 ✭✭✭abff


    Rjd2 wrote: »
    Same was said last time round and he done them.

    He was poor last night, but was always going to happen when you leave your safe space and have to defend that record. Whoever told him it would be a good idea ,,,oh dear.

    Going to be interesting though if Biden leaves his safe space and goes into any sort of hostile territory before the election,,,if I were him why bother?

    The difference between now and four years ago was that Trump had no record that he needed to defend at that stage. He could make all the false promises he wished and he convinced many people to give him the benefit of the doubt.

    At this stage, all doubt about his unfitness for office has been totally dispelled.


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    #3543
    Quin_Dub
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,113 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    ExMachina1000 wrote: »
    "Cult"
    People who support a candidate or party are not cult members.
    Are Democrat or Biden supporters also cult members? Are ff or labour etc supporters cult members too?

    Very childish. I thought this was supposed to be the politics form not current affairs

    There is definitely something unnatural about Trumps Support (and by correlation his opposition).

    Trump support has been the most stable of any Presidency in history - Pretty universally terrible , but incredibly consistent. He has never broken outside of a ~5 point band in the 40% to 45% range.

    No matter what happens it doesn't move outside that range - News that is good bad or indifferent simply doesn't change his support to any great degree.

    Every other President has seen their number peak and trough at various times through their time in Office , not Trump.

    Trump is the least popular President in History , others have had lower low points (GWB dipped to 29 % , Nixon 25% and Truman 22%)and every single other President has had higher highs (GWB hit 90% , the highest ever) , but none has been as utterly consistently less than mediocre as he has.

    Why is it that when he does something so clearly demonstrably awful his support doesn't dip , even briefly?

    Why is it that when he does something half-way decent he doesn't even get a temporary lift?

    What is it about Trump that makes him so consistently liked/disliked regardless of his behaviour?


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    #3544
    abff
    Registered Users Posts: 5,728 ✭✭✭abff


    ExMachina1000 wrote: »
    *Some people

    He was elected 4 years ago. Someone might interpret your comment as all people

    I was responding to your query as to whether people who hate Trump could be regarded as members of an anti Trump cult. I was explaining why those people might legitimately hate what he's been doing since he became president, without it being considered cult like behaviour.

    Are you going to respond to my question regarding why you think we should not feel that way?


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    #3545
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,268 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Quin_Dub wrote: »
    Why is it that when he does something so clearly demonstrably awful his support doesn't dip , even briefly?

    Why is it that when he does something half-way decent he doesn't even get a temporary lift?

    What is it about Trump that makes him so consistently liked/disliked regardless of his behaviour?

    I think it's because his presidency is almost unique in the way that he's just left a vacuum in the middle of government. He doesn't stand for anything. He doesn't do very much. By and large, it's a presidency of empty rhetoric.

    So without much in the way of achievements to judge him on, people can't judge him on the basis of what he does, so instead judge him on the basis of how he makes them feel. And perhaps that doesn't change as much?


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    #3546
    Quin_Dub
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,113 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    abff wrote: »
    The difference between now and four years ago was that Trump had no record that he needed to defend at that stage. He could make all the false promises he wished and he convinced many people to give him the benefit of the doubt.

    At this stage, all doubt about his unfitness for office has been totally dispelled.

    Trumps campaign last time could basically be distilled down to
    1. Build that wall
    2. Lock her up/Drain the Swamp
    3. Tax Cuts

    And most importantly - "Give me a shot , what have you got to lose?"


    Now though , he doesn't have any of those and hasn't managed to come up with a new angle either.

    Build the wall? - Nope

    Lock her Up/Drain the Swamp? - Nope

    Tax cuts - Yes , but according to the data from the US Government , in the 1st full year after his tax cuts , 57% of Americans were worse off before the Pandemic hit.

    "What have you got to lose"? - Everybody now knows with absolutely clarity what they've got to lose by voting for him.

    Outside his typical safe spaces how does he defend that?


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    #3547
    abff
    Registered Users Posts: 5,728 ✭✭✭abff


    Quin_Dub wrote: »
    What is it about Trump that makes him so consistently liked/disliked regardless of his behaviour?

    I think it's because his behaviour is so extreme that people either saw through him straight away or are completely (or wilfully) blind to his faults. There is no doubt that he has appealed to the lowest common denominator in many of the things that he has said and done and that he has exposed a nasty underbelly that was lurking beneath the surface. He also appealed to those who were feeling disenfranchised and neglected by the existing political system.

    I can understand the first group remaining loyal to him. The second group, less so.


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    #3548
    ExMachina1000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,748 ✭✭✭ExMachina1000


    abff wrote: »

    Are you going to respond to my question regarding why you think we should not feel that way?

    What type of question is this?

    You are entitled to think whatever way you choose. I'm not here to convince you or control your opinion.

    If trump supporters are a cult and are openly called so is then Trump haters are also a cult.


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    #3549
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    ExMachina1000 wrote: »
    What type of question is this?

    You are entitled to think whatever way you choose. I'm not here to convince you or control your opinion.

    If trump supporters are a cult and are openly called so is then Trump haters are also a cult.

    If Scientology is a cult, are those opposed to them also a cult? That's the logic of your statement...


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    #3550
    Quin_Dub
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,113 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    ExMachina1000 wrote: »
    What type of question is this?

    You are entitled to think whatever way you choose. I'm not here to convince you or control your opinion.

    If trump supporters are a cult and are openly called so is then Trump haters are also a cult.

    As I said earlier , there seems to be only about 5/6% of people open to changing their opinion under any circumstances in relation to Trump.

    For ~40% of the US there seems to be virtually nothing that will make then stop supporting Trump , even for a short while . Equally there would appear to be about ~45% of the US unwilling to give support to him even for a short while.

    Are there people exhibiting "Cult-like" behaviour on both sides - Absolutely without question

    I would posit that there are many more examples of poor Trump behaviour than good ones which may partially explain why those who don't support him are unwilling to give him short term positive feedback for the good things that have happened during his tenure.

    However I remain utterly at a loss to understand what might be the "straw that breaks the camels back" for that 40% that seem immovable in their support.


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    #3551
    ExMachina1000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,748 ✭✭✭ExMachina1000


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    If Scientology is a cult, are those opposed to them also a cult? That's the logic of your statement...

    Supporting the democratically elected president of the United states doesn't make those people cult members.
    Its belittling people who have a different political affiliation than your own.

    As I stated in my first post. Its childish
    In the current affairs thread yeah maybe but in the politics forum?


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    #3552
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,268 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Deleted User wrote: »
    If Scientology is a cult, are those opposed to them also a cult? That's the logic of your statement...

    I guess the best way of looking at it is not the position people hold but rather the level of rationality underpinning that position.

    For example, it's possible to conceive of a group of Scientology opponents who see Scientology as the root of all evil and implicate it in all sorts of conspiracy theories, who won't be swayed from that belief no matter how much contradictory evidence is presented to them. In those circumstances, yeah, you classify it as cult-like behaviour.


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    #3553
    amandstu
    Registered Users Posts: 3,419 ✭✭✭amandstu


    ExMachina1000 wrote: »
    What type of question is this?

    You are entitled to think whatever way you choose. I'm not here to convince you or control your opinion.

    If trump supporters are a cult and are openly called so is then Trump haters are also a cult.

    Who hates? There are plenty of appropriate descriptives and evaluations.

    Did the word "Trump hater" come out of his own mouth and give it extra currency? He seems to have an interest in sowing division.

    Trump's presence in the WH is a cause for dismay and some may well give way to intemperance.

    I wonder what Tim Parry or Gordon Wilson would have said about the present assault on democracy.


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    #3554
    Retr0gamer
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 50,896 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    ExMachina1000 wrote: »
    Supporting the democratically elected president of the United states doesn't make those people cult members.
    Its belittling people who have a different political affiliation than your own.

    As I stated in my first post. Its childish
    In the current affairs thread yeah maybe but in the politics forum?

    Read up on QAnon.

    Then come back to us educated.
    Untitled Image




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    #3555
    ExMachina1000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,748 ✭✭✭ExMachina1000


    Retr0gamer wrote: »
    Read up on QAnon.

    Then come back to us educated.

    I'm aware of that bat shìt conspiracy theory.

    Are you implying that all Trunp supporters and voters subscribe to that theory?


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    #3556
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    ExMachina1000 wrote: »
    Supporting the democratically elected president of the United states doesn't make those people cult members.
    Its belittling people who have a different political affiliation than your own.

    As I stated in my first post. Its childish
    In the current affairs thread yeah maybe but in the politics forum?

    If the President fails to behave as a president should. By breaking laws, using his platform to insult and move. Actively egging on militias and endless other things. Like I would view people who supported Nixon post Watergate as cultish. Trump has far outdone Nixon in terms of bringing disgrace to the office. It requires either an immense level of ignorance or pretty warped values. Trump being the end product of the warped values.
    ExMachina1000 wrote: »
    I'm aware of that bat shìt conspiracy theory.

    Are you implying that all Trunp supporters and voters subscribe to that theory?

    Don't believe anyone is claiming that but it's a demographic that he's happy the support of...


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    #3557
    abff
    Registered Users Posts: 5,728 ✭✭✭abff


    ExMachina1000 wrote: »
    What type of question is this?

    It’s quite a simple question. I gave you an opportunity to defend Trump and you decided to ignore it.

    Reminds me of Boris Johnson in the House of Commons the other day when he was given the opportunity to explain his position by Ed Miliband and he just sat there shaking his head.


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    #3558
    hirondelle
    Registered Users Posts: 326 ✭✭hirondelle


    aloyisious wrote: »
    Would the prison population numbers be a bonus to help keep the Electoral College in existence?

    That I do not know. I plan on reading and understanding better the mechanics of the US voting- federalism really is a system with many complicated aspects to it


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    #3559
    duploelabs
    Registered Users Posts: 11,172 ✭✭✭✭duploelabs


    ExMachina1000 wrote: »
    I'm aware of that bat shìt conspiracy theory.

    Are you implying that all Trunp supporters and voters subscribe to that theory?

    Not all Trump supporters are racists, but all racists are Trump supporters (I'm using the term 'racist' as using negative stereotypes against people of colour before you give a quip). In the same manner, not all Trump supporters subscribe to Qanon but all Qanon believers are Trump supporters.
    So in the age of partisan politics, look to the left and right of you on your side that you represent and realise that they are 'your people'


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    #3560
    briany
    Registered Users Posts: 13,569 ✭✭✭✭briany


    ExMachina1000 wrote: »
    I'm aware of that bat shìt conspiracy theory.

    Are you implying that all Trunp supporters and voters subscribe to that theory?

    This poll found that 33 percent Republicans surveyed believed the conspiracy theory to be mostly true. A further 23 percent surveyed believed parts of it to be true. The idea that such a crazy conspiracy theory as QAnon has such traction among a political base is crazy in itself.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/tommybeer/2020/09/02/majority-of-republicans-believe-the-qanon-conspiracy-theory-is-partly-or-mostly-true-survey-finds/#5824ec595231

    To further this, Trump himself has said of QAnon,
    Well, I don't know much about the movement, other than I understand that they like me very much, which I appreciate.

    And he follows on from there, but at no point does he allude to it being a crazy conspiracy theory that he wants to distance himself from.

    And this isn't even to mention that QAnon stuff is being posted by someone anonymous. Having to be anonymous is part of the their story. Of course, it also helps to be anonymous if there isn't really a high level government official on the other side, and is instead a troll having a great old time. Hardly Edward Snowden, is it?


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    #3561
    ExMachina1000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,748 ✭✭✭ExMachina1000


    duploelabs wrote: »
    Not all Trump supporters are racists, but all racists are Trump supporters (I'm using the term 'racist' as using negative stereotypes against people of colour before you give a quip). In the same manner, not all Trump supporters subscribe to Qanon but all Qanon believers are Trump supporters.
    So in the age of partisan politics, look to the left and right of you on your side that you represent and realise that they are 'your people'

    "All racists are Trump supporters "

    Do you really believe this?


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    #3562
    aloyisious
    Registered Users Posts: 11,557 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    I don't know about cults but Trump definitely has a group of adoring fans, as exampled by the woman who told him at his last rally that she loved him and would stand and take a bullet for him, who don't take a hard look at his actual record where it comes to helping them get a leg up in life. He didn't even have to push hard for such a devoted base as relationships between the two parties were already at a poor level before the 2016 election.

    With nothing to lose, as they voted for him, his loyal voter base has stuck with him as they have been given no other option. I've no idea if there is an equal level of loyalty in the Dems for their 2016 and 2020 candidates. Trump did nothing to lessen the dislike between the two parties and their voters, or the gap between a divided U.S population all across the board, instead took actions and give speeches to widen the gap for his own non-political purposes.


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    #3563
    duploelabs
    Registered Users Posts: 11,172 ✭✭✭✭duploelabs


    ExMachina1000 wrote: »
    "All racists are Trump supporters "

    Do you really believe this?

    And there's the quip as predicted


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    #3564
    ExMachina1000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,748 ✭✭✭ExMachina1000


    duploelabs wrote: »
    And there's the quip as predicted

    It's a question. You wrote a statement.
    Do you really believe that all racists are Trump supporters.

    A simple yes or no will do. I'm genuinely curious.


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    #3565
    Leroy42
    Registered Users Posts: 15,505 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    ExMachina1000 wrote: »
    It's a question. You wrote a statement.
    Do you really believe that all racists are Trump supporters.

    A simple yes or no will do. I'm genuinely curious.

    I would certainly think that the vast majority of racist are at least Anti-Democrats. Whether that reaches the level of Trump supporter it is impossible to say, but all indicators would point that given two options, they will never pick the Democrat option.

    The Democrats are, according to Trump at least, pro immigration, pro foreingers, pro LGBT etc etc. These are the triggers for racists so I cannot see how any racist could support Biden, or indeed the Democratic party.

    Trump has also made it clear that he 'understands' where the likes of White Power, KKK and anti-BLM are coming from, so if you are drawn to those ideas then Trumps offers you a much better home than the democrats.


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    #3566
    duploelabs
    Registered Users Posts: 11,172 ✭✭✭✭duploelabs


    ExMachina1000 wrote: »
    It's a question. You wrote a statement.
    Do you really believe that all racists are Trump supporters.

    A simple yes or no will do. I'm genuinely curious.

    Yes, but I'm up to correction. If you want, please show me a white Biden supporter using 'ni**er' or telling people of colour to go back to their own countries


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    #3567
    ExMachina1000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,748 ✭✭✭ExMachina1000


    duploelabs wrote: »
    Yes, but I'm up to correction. If you want, please show me a white Biden supporter using 'ni**er' or telling people of colour to go back to their own countries

    Ok. And do you believe that only white people can be racist?

    Again I'm curious of your opinion. I'm not going to argue your answer either way


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    #3568
    abff
    Registered Users Posts: 5,728 ✭✭✭abff


    ExMachina1000 wrote: »
    It's a question. You wrote a statement.
    Do you really believe that all racists are Trump supporters.

    A simple yes or no will do. I'm genuinely curious.

    It's interesting that you're pushing him for an answer, when you have refused to address my question regarding what arguments you can come up with in support of Trump.

    Having said this, I don't think that all racists are Trump supporters. For one thing, not all racists live in America. However, I do think that if someone was a white American racist, it's extremely likely that they would be happy to have Trump as president and would be a strong supporter of him.

    And I know it wasn't me you were asking to respond to the question, but I just thought I'd throw in my two cents worth.


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    #3569
    duploelabs
    Registered Users Posts: 11,172 ✭✭✭✭duploelabs


    ExMachina1000 wrote: »
    Ok. And do you believe that only white people can be racist?

    Again I'm curious of your opinion. I'm not going to argue your answer either way

    Stop being obtuse, you know exactly what I mean as defined above.


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    #3570
    ExMachina1000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,748 ✭✭✭ExMachina1000


    duploelabs wrote: »
    Stop being obtuse, you know exactly what I mean as defined above.

    Its straightforward. Do you think only white people can be racist or to put it another way do you think that their any people of other races in America who are racist against whites?


    There is no gotcha moment waiting. It's an honest question. Il respect your answer as you are entitled to your opinion.


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    #3571
    duploelabs
    Registered Users Posts: 11,172 ✭✭✭✭duploelabs


    ExMachina1000 wrote: »
    Its straightforward. Do you think only white people can be racist or to put it another way do you think that their any people of other races who are racist against whites in America?


    There is no gotcha moment waiting. It's an honest question. Il respect your answer as you are entitled to your opinion.

    Each race can be intolerant of other races. But you know that's not the point I'm making


This discussion has been closed.
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