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Formula 1 2020 - General Discussion Thread (See MOD warning on first post)

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    #3032
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,448 ✭✭✭weisses


    vectra wrote: »
    Where did I say there engine was not slower this year?

    Why is the Ferrari engine slower then last year ?


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    #3033
    Inquitus
    Registered Users Posts: 13,748 ✭✭✭✭Inquitus


    weisses wrote: »
    Why is the Ferrari engine slower then last year ?

    Because they were cheating last year and the settlement with the FIA plugged the loophole they were exploiting.


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    #3034
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,095 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    vectra wrote: »
    Where did I say there engine was not slower this year?

    As for your insistent cheating accusation.

    Hypothetically speaking, if someone from Ferrari were scouring forums looking for know all's like you that consistently accuse them of cheating, and issued with an order to appear in court to prove them guilty, as you are spreading slanderous rumors which is also defamatory against their institution. How do you think you would fare out in court when you would answer the question about them cheating with you "Sure everyone knows it" ?

    Very easy to sit behind a keyboard and make all sorts of accusations. But as I said, with no evidence, everything you say about their "cheating" as you call it, means nothing.
    I never said they were not cheating, I never said they ( or every other team for that matter ) bend the rules and find loopholes to exploit until the said loopholes are closed.

    OK.

    Now, will you answer why ferrari has chosen to go with a less fast engine this year if last year's engine wasn't cheating? Thanks.

    Note the question asks you WHY you think ferrari has chosen to use a less fast engine this year if last year's engine wasn't cheating.


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    #3035
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,095 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Inquitus wrote: »
    Because they were cheating last year and the settlement with the FIA plugged the loophole they were exploiting.

    I mean, that's the answer.


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    #3036
    GarIT
    Registered Users Posts: 8,671 ✭✭✭GarIT


    weisses wrote: »
    Why is the Ferrari engine slower then last year ?


    https://motorsport.tech/formula-1/fuel-flow-gate-did-ferrari-attempt-to-trick-the-system-and-if-so-how-could-it-be-done

    For those that don't want to read. Last year teams were allowed to have 2L of fuel between the fuel flow sensor and the engine. This year they are allowed 250ml. The suspicion is that Ferrari had a constant flow leaving the tank and passing the sensor but a varibale amount being drawn from it. i.e when not accelerating a reservoir after the fuel flow sensor would fill to take advantage of the difference between what is being used and the flow allowed, then when accelerating the car would draw from the reservoir plus the tank so they could exceed the fuel flow limit. Some evidence pointing to this, they were caught with more fuel than declared in Vettel's car.


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    #3037
    PukkaStukka
    Registered Users Posts: 2,160 ✭✭✭PukkaStukka


    Ferrari were not found to have been cheating last year.

    Will some of the protagonists making such claims they were cheating kindly provide a finding of fact from an official source controling the sport or investigatimg the matter last year to confirm your arguments.

    Otherwise PFO


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    #3038
    namloc1980
    Registered Users Posts: 18,142 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    Inquitus wrote: »
    Because they were cheating last year and the settlement with the FIA plugged the loophole they were exploiting.

    They can't be cheating while also exploiting a loophole. Cheating is breaking the rules, exploiting a loophole is taking advantage of an uncertainty or ambiguity in the rules. Very different things. FIA never found evidence of cheating.


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    #3039
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,095 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    GarIT wrote: »
    https://motorsport.tech/formula-1/fuel-flow-gate-did-ferrari-attempt-to-trick-the-system-and-if-so-how-could-it-be-done

    Yeah good read. Ferrari can't cheat this year and the engine is slower. Could be complete coincidence, but it's unlikely.


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    #3040
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,095 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    namloc1980 wrote: »
    They can't be cheating while also exploiting a loophole. Cheating is breaking the rules, exploiting a loophole is taking advantage of an uncertainty or ambiguity in the rules. Very different things. FIA never found evidence of cheating.

    That's not really true. It's cheating to kick an opponent or to be offside in football and the ref is watching for cheating. If the referee doesn't see a player offside or kick an opponent, it was still cheating.

    If ferrari was Intentionally pumping extra fuel when the sensor wasn't looking or preventing the sensor from reporting the actual flow rate, it was still cheating. And they can't cheat in the same way this year so the engine isn't as good.


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    #3041
    pjohnson
    Registered Users Posts: 23,369 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson


    Mercedes must be cheating since they are exploiting a loophole that the FIA have since closed.


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    #3042
    namloc1980
    Registered Users Posts: 18,142 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    That's not really true. It's cheating to kick an opponent or to be offside in football and the ref is watching for cheating. If the referee doesn't see a player offside or kick an opponent, it was still cheating.

    If ferrari was Intentionally pumping extra fuel when the sensor wasn't looking or preventing the sensor from reporting the actual flow rate, it was still cheating. And they can't cheat in the same way this year so the engine isn't as good.

    It is actually true. Your football analogies are incomparable. Being offside or kicking an opponent is clearly breaking a rule of the game. Not exploiting a loophole. Ferrari seemingly exploited a loophole which has since closed i.e. not cheating.


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    #3043
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,095 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    namloc1980 wrote: »
    It is actually true. Your football analogies are incomparable. Being offside or kicking an opponent is clearly breaking a rule of the game. Not exploiting a loophole. Ferrari seemingly exploited a loophole which has since closed i.e. not cheating.

    Was it cheating to be offside or kick an opponent if the ref didn't see it or call it? Yes, it was. Was it cheating to have a fuel low greater than the allowed limit? Yes, it was.


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    #3044
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,095 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    pjohnson wrote: »
    Mercedes must be cheating since they are exploiting a loophole that the FIA have since closed.

    Sure. Of course the FIA has ruled on it said it's fine this season so it's not a good analogy at all.

    (Assuming you're referring to DAS)


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    #3045
    This is it
    Registered Users Posts: 5,300 ✭✭✭This is it


    As was said, exploiting a loophole, no cheating.


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    #3046
    namloc1980
    Registered Users Posts: 18,142 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    Was it cheating to be offside or kick an opponent if the ref didn't see it or call it? Yes, it was. Was it cheating to have a fuel low greater than the allowed limit? Yes, it was.

    Sorry but you haven't a notion what you're on about. You clearly have never watched football if you believe being offside is cheating. You haven't a clue I'm afraid.


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    #3047
    Charlie-Bravo
    Registered Users Posts: 5,631 ✭✭✭Charlie-Bravo


    This thread has gone to pot. The discussion has gone nowhere for several pages now. I'm asking as a fellow boardsie if the ****e taking could stop and we stick to relevant chat for F1.

    Note: I'm not a mod and just asking (not backseat modding either). \rant

    -. . ...- . .-. / --. --- -. -. .- / --. .. ...- . / -.-- --- ..- / ..- .--.



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    #3048
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,095 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    namloc1980 wrote: »
    Sorry but you haven't a notion what you're on about. You clearly have never watched football if you believe being offside is cheating. You haven't a clue I'm afraid.

    Hold on, hold on. Is being offside in football not cheating now? What do you mean? I think your answer will be just playing with words but I'd be interested to know what you mean.

    In any case, kicking an opponent is cheating whether the ref sees it or calls it or not. Ferrari using a fuel flow rate greater than the allowed amount is cheating whether the sensor can see it or report it or not.


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    #3049
    pjohnson
    Registered Users Posts: 23,369 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson


    astrofluff wrote: »
    This thread has gone to pot. The discussion has gone nowhere for several pages now. I'm asking as a fellow boardsie if the ****e taking could stop and we stick to relevant chat for F1.

    Note: I'm not a mod and just asking (not backseat modding either). \rant
    Happens every few days. Some amount of dead horses get flogged mercilessly :(


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    #3050
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,095 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    astrofluff wrote: »
    This thread has gone to pot. The discussion has gone nowhere for several pages now. I'm asking as a fellow boardsie if the ****e taking could stop and we stick to relevant chat for F1.

    Note: I'm not a mod and just asking (not backseat modding either). \rant

    It's about a fairly significant event in the sport and the disgraceful handling of that event and lack of transparency by the sport's ruling body. It's pretty on topic chat.


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    #3051
    quokula
    Registered Users Posts: 3,582 ✭✭✭quokula


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    Hold on, hold on. Is being offside in football not cheating now? What do you mean? I think your answer will be just playing with words but I'd be interested to know what you mean.

    In any case, kicking an opponent is cheating whether the ref sees it or calls it or not. Ferrari using a fuel flow rate greater than the allowed amount is cheating whether the sensor can see it or report it or not.

    Kicking an opponent is cheating. Being falsely accused of kicking an opponent when nobody saw it and there is no evidence whatsoever found of it actually happening even after scouring all the video replays is not cheating.


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    #3052
    PukkaStukka
    Registered Users Posts: 2,160 ✭✭✭PukkaStukka


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    It's about a fairly significant event in the sport and the disgraceful handling of that event and lack of transparency by the sport's ruling body. It's pretty on topic chat.

    Whatever way it was handled, there was no finding of cheating. An inconvenient truth you conveniently and consistently ignore


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    #3053
    Anjobe
    Registered Users Posts: 1,446 ✭✭✭Anjobe


    PukkaStukka wrote: »
    Whatever way it was handled, there was no finding of cheating. An inconvenient truth you conveniently and consistently ignore

    While that is true as far as we know, the way it was handled has unfortunately left it open to suspicion. Rather ironically, the reason Ferrari have given for appealing the Racing Point judgement is ‘transparency’.


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    #3054
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,095 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    quokula wrote: »
    Kicking an opponent is cheating. Being falsely accused of kicking an opponent when nobody saw it and there is no evidence whatsoever found of it actually happening even after scouring all the video replays is not cheating.

    Sure, and if they kicked someone its cheating whether anyone saw it or not. This isn't controversial stuff.

    Your analogy says "there is no evidence whatsoever found of it actually happening". But in this instance we have evidence that it happened. Namely the fact that ferrari's engine has taken a step backwards this year. Maybe they decided to run a less good engine this year because they preferred a less powerful engine - maybe they wanted to increase the gap to Mercedes. Or maybe they have to comply with the rules this year and have had to remove the cheating component.

    Has anyone said why they think ferrari has chosen to use a less good engine this year?


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    #3055
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,095 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    PukkaStukka wrote: »
    Whatever way it was handled, there was no finding of cheating. An inconvenient truth you conveniently and consistently ignore

    Nope. I've acknowledged that they didn't call it cheating. They smudged it all over specifically to avoid calling it cheating. But they did have to stop the cheating and stay within the fuel flow rate and as a result the engine is not as quick this year.

    The FIA handling was terrible. But, ultimately it's just sport, it's not real life. So they can make up rules as they go along and that's pretty much what they did in this instance and they smudges it all over.


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    #3056
    PukkaStukka
    Registered Users Posts: 2,160 ✭✭✭PukkaStukka


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    Nope. I've acknowledged that they didn't call it cheating. .... But they did have to stop the cheating

    But you conciously choose to repeatedly refer to it as cheating. Why is that?


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    #3057
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,448 ✭✭✭weisses


    This is it wrote: »
    As was said, exploiting a loophole, no cheating.

    What exact loophole was exploited?


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    #3058
    vectra
    Registered Users Posts: 15,515 ✭✭✭✭vectra


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

    Has anyone said why they think ferrari has chosen to use a less good engine this year?

    Define less good engine?


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    #3059
    mickdw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,314 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    vectra wrote: »
    Define less good engine?

    Ah jesus this thread is gone to sh1t.
    Ferrari were running something that wasnt deemed legit. A deal was done with fia and it was taken off the car. They then immediately went backways.
    So to define a less good engine...... one which is not as competitive as the previous one when compared to rivals.


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    #3060
    g1983d
    Registered Users Posts: 585 ✭✭✭g1983d


    mickdw wrote: »
    Ah jesus this thread is gone to sh1t.
    Ferrari were running something that wasnt deemed legit. A deal was done with fia and it was taken off the car. They then immediately went backways.
    So to define a less good engine...... one which is not as competitive as the previous one when compared to rivals.

    Thinking of unfollowing at this stage. I guess people are missing out on nonsensical drunken arguments from the pubs so are doing it here instead


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    #3061
    vectra
    Registered Users Posts: 15,515 ✭✭✭✭vectra


    mickdw wrote: »
    Ah jesus this thread is gone to sh1t.
    Ferrari were running something that wasnt deemed legit. A deal was done with fia and it was taken off the car. They then immediately went backways.
    So to define a less good engine...... one which is not as competitive as the previous one when compared to rivals.

    But wasn't whatever they were running was only after the summer break?
    So it is hard to say it is Less good engine.

    Also
    Ferrari are running a lot more downforce on this years chassis which in turn would make it slower due to the less power they now have, After all, this car was designed around what they thought they would have.


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