Formula 1 2020 - General Discussion Thread (See MOD warning on first post)

g1983d

ELM327 wrote: »

https://www.boards.ie/love.php?match=hot

I like it :-)

Santan

bottas is just one podium shy of hakkinen. Don't think bottas is really in the same league as mika as a driver. Stats really are misleading when you have a Mercedes in the hybrid era.

muckwarrior

Bottas is more like this generation's Coulthard.

tipp_tipp_tipp

muckwarrior wrote: »

Bottas is more like this generation's Coulthard.

AMKC

Santan wrote: »

bottas is just one podium shy of hakkinen. Don't think bottas is really in the same league as mika as a driver. Stats really are misleading when you have a Mercedes in the hybrid era.

It's not just Mercedes do don't forget there are more races in a season now than there was back then too. I wonder what Lewis's stats would be like if the last 6 seasons had of had around the same amount of races each season as Senna or Schumachers time when they dominated the sport.

the_pen_turner

AMKC wrote: »

It's not just Mercedes do don't forget there are more races in a season now than there was back then too. I wonder what Lewis's stats would be like if the last 6 seasons had of had around the same amount of races each season as Senna or Schumachers time when they dominated the sport.

exactly.
this system doesnt represent the facts fairly.
getting 5 poles in a 10 race year is a lot better than getting 5 in a 20 race year but they add up the same.

the same aplies to finishing races. how many dnfs have we had this year, 10 roughly , years ago that would regularly happen in a race.

El_Duderino 09

vectra wrote: »

Deal ?
On what? I have nothing to let go of,
You have an accusation of Ferrari cheating buried in your head.
I asked you for proof or evidence of this.



Maybe you should read this.
You are talking through your hat, as you say, these is plenty of evidence, if so, then where is the proof?



Also,
This will be my last reply to YOU, until YOU or any other member shows me some solid evidence or proof that Ferrari were cheating.

OK. Why do you think they've decided to use a less good engine this year than last year?

I've asked that question lots of times and the fact that you can't answer it days it all.

El_Duderino 09

Was thereuch analysis of the impact of the single engine mode from the next race?

The headlines were that they can't turn UP the engine but I think I've read that th ey have to use a single engine mode all weekend - meaning they also can't turn down the engine during free practice. That will surely have an impact on reliability and how keen they are to actually run at all during free practice. I wouldn't be surprised of it means they run much fewer laps in practice.

Is there much difference in reliability between engines? Mercedes had had a few engine failures but so has ferrari in the last two weeks.

muckwarrior

tipp_tipp_tipp wrote: »

That's exactly what I was thinking about. Back then it seemed like he was on the cover of F1 magazine at the start of every year with that headline

Frank Bullitt

AMKC wrote: »

It's not just Mercedes do don't forget there are more races in a season now than there was back then too. I wonder what Lewis's stats would be like if the last 6 seasons had of had around the same amount of races each season as Senna or Schumachers time when they dominated the sport.

Lord have mercy, if you brought that up in the Autosport forum, you'd get death threats.

As pointed out above, the stats etc can be misleading (Bottas is nowhere near Hakkinen level of skill, at all, ever). My take is that (and some will see this as Hamilton bashing), he is triumphing in an era of super engineered racing. You had Perez asking his team how is own tires were on Sunday...just think about that.

Merc are so dominant because they have an engineer team or department for every part of their car and team, all that data goes towards performance models, which tells them set-up requirements, which then informs everything after that, strategy, tire PSI, engine modes, you name it.

I have F1 TV and love watching older races mainly because you could see a driver having to muscle the car to get a performance, they have to do all they could to get the most out of it. Now, it feels like the opposite, the car is set up in a manner that you have a time to hit, and once you do that you know what your result will be.

Think Schumacher in Hungry 98, qualy lap after qualy lap. (My Schumacher bias kicks in)

vectra

Gintonious wrote: »

Lord have mercy, if you brought that up in the Autosport forum, you'd get death threats.

As pointed out above, the stats etc can be misleading (Bottas is nowhere near Hakkinen level of skill, at all, ever). My take is that (and some will see this as Hamilton bashing), he is triumphing in an era of super engineered racing. You had Perez asking his team how is own tires were on Sunday...just think about that.

Merc are so dominant because they have an engineer team or department for every part of their car and team, all that data goes towards performance models, which tells them set-up requirements, which then informs everything after that, strategy, tire PSI, engine modes, you name it.

I have F1 TV and love watching older races mainly because you could see a driver having to muscle the car to get a performance, they have to do all they could to get the most out of it. Now, it feels like the opposite, the car is set up in a manner that you have a time to hit, and once you do that you know what your result will be.

Think Schumacher in Hungry 98, qualy lap after qualy lap. (My Schumacher bias kicks in)

Wouldn't you think that with the finances that Ferrari should have that they don't do this^ ? They must be pure stupid.

quokula

vectra wrote: »

Wouldn't you think that with the finances that Ferrari should have that they don't do this^ ? They must be pure stupid.

1. Their current management is completely incompetent. They’ve been making bad decision after bad decision at every level lately.

2. When they did actually have competent people in key positions in recent years, they seem to be outright cursed. They were looking strong and moving forward under the leadership of Sergio Marchione, before his unexpected illness and passing. His replacement seems to have little interest in F1 as far as I can tell. And it’s not just Marchione, a couple of years prior to that they had James Allison just getting started as tech director when his wife was diagnosed with terminal cancer, leading him to move back to England to focus on his family, then ultimately going on to join Mercedes who were closer to home.

3. Even if they do get everything right, Mercedes have such an ingrained advantage in the current formula that they’re almost impossible to catch. This goes back to the fact that they were developing their hybrid F1 engine years before anyone else, then used their political clout and threats to quit the sport to force the new formula to match their spec, while Renault argued for a flat 4 and Ferrari wanted to keep the V8s that had been reliably producing close seasons year in year out. Mercedes then had an entrenched advantage from day 1, with arbitrary restrictions like token systems combining with extremely limited testing days, narrow regulations, and the FIA actively shutting down any possible innovation paths, meaning that as long as Mercedes keep developing at a reasonable pace they are basically impossible to catch from behind.

Harika

https://www.racefans.net/2020/08/18/final-17-race-2020-f1-calendar-taking-shape-including-istanbul-and-two-bahrain-races/

Turkey is back and Bahrain double header with two different layouts.
Congratulations to F1 to get a 17 race calendar in. Too bad for all the haters.

ELM327

That's not too bad.
This year has been (and will be) refreshing with some different tracks that wouldnt normally get to host F1 races.

PukkaStukka

Gintonious wrote: »

Merc are so dominant because they have an engineer team or department for every part of their car and team, all that data goes towards performance models, which tells them set-up requirements, which then informs everything after that, strategy, tire PSI, engine modes, you name it.

vectra wrote: »

Wouldn't you think that with the finances that Ferrari should have that they don't do this^ ? They must be pure stupid.

There is some truth in this though, Mercedes had three top designers working parallel with one another at one stage (Geoff Willis ex BAR, Aldo Costa ex Ferrari and Paddy Lowe ex McLaren) and had / still have enormous strength in depth. That got their run started in the run up to the hybrid era which has carried on since. Some of those players have left but replaced by equally talented people and with no break in continuity.

This structure will no doubt put them in good stead when the rules change again in 2022 as they have the resources and means to commence all of the development for that earlier than most and more intensively too. I don't see the pecking order changing much with the rules. It really is industrial scale F1.

Joeface

Details i could find on 2 Bahrain tracks

H3llR4iser

Gintonious wrote: »

I have F1 TV and love watching older races mainly because you could see a driver having to muscle the car to get a performance, they have to do all they could to get the most out of it. Now, it feels like the opposite, the car is set up in a manner that you have a time to hit, and once you do that you know what your result will be.

Think Schumacher in Hungry 98, qualy lap after qualy lap. (My Schumacher bias kicks in)

The same can be said of the era before Schumacher's - which I will maintain was EVEN more boring than today, with the refueling and the drivers having to do "driving to a time" so they could emerge in front of their opponent. That Hungary race - as much as a good piece of driving from Michael as it was, it wasn't entertaining in the least. He just drove fast with a low-fuel car and emerged in front. No action, no duels, no overtaking. It could be argued it was McLaren's dumb "oh that's not gonna happen" stance to facilitate Ferrari's weird gamble.

Similarly, Schumacher's stats are also misleading and deceptive when you compare them with the ones regarding Senna or Prost, or Stewart; Michael enjoyed an utterly dominant car for multiple seasons, with a team mate bound by contract to move aside, a tire advantage and some would even say, "regulatory advantage" (name one other driver who won a race by "serving" a penalty after the finish line and was allowed to keep it). Longer seasons also, and bulletproof reliability.

In many ways, it can be argued that Prost's 51 career wins were harder to reach than Schumacher's 91 and whatever number Hamilton will achieve, in a time where even the top cars would fail to finish multiple races each season. Alain's legendary ability to nurse the car over the course of a race, plus bringing a faulty one to the finish, often in a podium position, would be mostly irrelevant today. Same could be said about Senna's 65 poles and 41 wins - and who knows what he could've achieved without the accident.

Stats are simply meaningless when taken out of context - the best example would be "total points" - most current drivers will top that. Show them to a kid who doesn't know drivers used to get 9 points (and previously, 8) for a win instead of 25, and points were only for the top 6, and they'll think Bottas to be one of the "all time greats" and will ask you "Senna who?".

It'll get worse in the future, with drivers arriving in F1 younger, longer seasons, cars that almost never fail to finish, and huge gaps between dominant teams and the rest. It's entirely realistic to figure guys like Verstappen and Leclerc to end their careers with 150 race wins or whereabouts.

Joeface

you can only really look at number of world Championships , number of years driving , and probably number of teams driven for as an idea of a driver. Year on year poduims finishes as a % of total races maybe as well but because of the number races now compared to Previous is a little off as well.


I did find an answer to a question posted here a few weeks back , why the fuel flow limit if the Tank of fuel is limited to 106Kg ..its to try keep the cars all going at the same pace , closer together . I dont know if this should be removed or not I cannot decide.

H3llR4iser

Joeface wrote: »

you can only really look at number of world Championships , number of years driving , and probably number of teams driven for as an idea of a driver. Year on year poduims finishes as a % of total races maybe as well but because of the number races now compared to Previous is a little off as well.


I did find an answer to a question posted here a few weeks back , why the fuel flow limit if the Tank of fuel is limited to 106Kg ..its to try keep the cars all going at the same pace , closer together . I dont know if this should be removed or not I cannot decide.

IIRC, the idea was to prevent the creation of "hyper super duper" modes for qualifying or quick stints, like it existed in the 1980s. Granted, it would be counterproductive today with the engine and gearbox limits.



Like, Mercedes' "party mode", as effective as it might be today, completely pales compared, for example, to what Renault were doing back in 1985/1986, unleashing something like 1500HP in qualifying, while the engine "only" had whereabouts of 700 in race mode.

Burkie1203

https://twitter.com/SkySportsF1/status/1295721427207938049?s=19

Frank Bullitt

vectra wrote: »

Wouldn't you think that with the finances that Ferrari should have that they don't do this^ ? They must be pure stupid.

This is a specialty of Ferrari. They have the history but they don't always have the leadership in place.

Look at their Schumacher years, you had him, Jean Todt, Ross Brawn, Rory Byrne, Luca di Montezemolo.

Look at Merc and you see a similar concept in practise.

How many leadership changes have Ferrari had over the past 10 years...it is insane.

Harika

Burkie1203 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/SkySportsF1/status/1295721427207938049?s=19

Ferrari signed it too, so it's done and dusted

recyclebin

Any details on this new agreement? Do Ferrari still get the veto and the wad of cash?

McLaren and Williams should be getting some of Ferraris pie at this stage. They have been around for nearly as long.

H3llR4iser

Gintonious wrote: »

This is a specialty of Ferrari. They have the history but they don't always have the leadership in place.

Look at their Schumacher years, you had him, Jean Todt, Ross Brawn, Rory Byrne, Luca di Montezemolo.

Look at Merc and you see a similar concept in practise.

How many leadership changes have Ferrari had over the past 10 years...it is insane.

Ferrari just needs to do away with Italian managers. It's a cultural thing - they make everything political, create factions inside the company (team in this case) and have a tendency to micromanage, especially things they don't fully understand. In the last 30 years it happened with Cesare Fiorio, it happened with Domenicali, happened with Arrivabene.

They tried to avoid the scenario with Binotto; he carried great hope being an engineer, but the issue is that he lacks "human" skills. Going up on stage during the car's presentation to say "extending Sebastian's contract is our priority", only to never offer him a contract, is testament to that - as are his various interviews where he makes idiotic comments rather than just say "we're a team until the last day of somebody's contract, so we work towards a common goal". A vast majority of Ferrari fans in Italy are absolutely livid with him about Vettel's treatment - and when a fanbase as militant as Ferrari's takes the side of the outgoing driver instead that of their team, it means you've done something REALLY wrong.

Hire Horner, get Brawn back to the helm, check if Wolff might be tired of Mercedes...heck even Withmarsh would be a huge improvement.

Inquitus

recyclebin wrote: »

Any details on this new agreement? Do Ferrari still get the veto and the wad of cash?

Yes Ferrari keep the random wad of cash for their history in F1, and keep their Veto. The rest of the payments are levelled out much more in terms of performance bonuses etc etc.

So Merc get shafted, Red Bull gain on Alpha Tauri and lose on the main team. All the minnows do well out of it.

Harika

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EfuHiNgWAAAiEHX?format=png&name=small

No one talking about the simulated fastest drivers since 1983? What a joke, as bad as the UK predicted grade sh!tshow
Only 2 drivers from the 80/90s made it into the list. No häkkinen Mansell ...

Inquitus

Harika wrote: »

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EfuHiNgWAAAiEHX?format=png&name=small

No one talking about the simulated fastest drivers since 1983? What a joke, as bad as the UK predicted grade sh!tshow
Only 2 drivers from the 80/90s made it into the list. No häkkinen Mansell ...

It's just a load of shíte, wonder how on earth they put that crap together. Norris and Saintz just outside the Top 10 drivers in the last 30 years?

Harika

Inquitus wrote: »

It's just a load of shíte, wonder how on earth they put that crap together. Norris and Saintz just outside the Top 10 drivers in the last 30 years?

F1 together with aws. https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.hamilton-schumacher-senna-machine-learning-reveals-the-fastest-f1-driver-of.3DwwPLW4glCmlunjciH1Cz.html

PopePalpatine

Anything to get the fans talking about something other than the latest Catalan borefest.

Frank Bullitt

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Anything to get the fans talking about something other than the latest Catalan borefest.