Formula 1 2020 - General Discussion Thread (See MOD warning on first post)

recyclebin

Re the Ferrari engine, there is a saying, if it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck. The FIA smudged the ruling and made a secret deal with Ferrari. Look who is the head of the FIA and who is the head of Formula 1. Both ex Ferrari. They also need Ferrari to sign new Concorde agreement. I say this in jest but Ferrari probably vetoed their own punishment for cheating.

H3llR4iser

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Ah yes the quality young drivers like Stroll, Latifi, Giovinazzi....

To be honest, Stroll isn't being judged fairly, he's holding his own against Perez, who is (rightly or wrongly) regarded quite well.



Giovinazzi...he could use some experience in a car with some grip and Latifi, way too early to judge - especially when he's matched against Russel.

recyclebin wrote: »

Re the Ferrari engine, there is a saying, if it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck. The FIA smudged the ruling and made a secret deal with Ferrari. Look who is the head of the FIA and who is the head of Formula 1. Both ex Ferrari. They also need Ferrari to sign new Concorde agreement. I say this in jest but Ferrari probably vetoed their own punishment for cheating.

Just one thing - the assumption that the FIA and F1 heads are "Ferrari men" is kinda disingenuous. In true Ferrari fashion, neither Todt nor Brawn parted with them in exceedingly amicable terms.

vectra

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Have you come up with a reason why Ferrai has decided to run a less good engine than last year? Or are you still pretending you're the only person in Ireland who doesn't know this year's engine is less good than last year's?

Why should I try to come up with any reason?
You still fail to come up with your evidence that they were cheating.

Hijpo

Anyone think Ricardo has any regrets heading off to Renault, seeing RB keeping into the mercs with a Honda engine?

vectra

Hijpo wrote: »

Anyone think Ricardo has any regrets heading off to Renault, seeing RB keeping into the mercs with a Honda engine?

Absolutely, otherwise he wouldn't be jumping ship so soon.

Hijpo

vectra wrote: »

Absolutely, otherwise he wouldn't be jumping ship so soon.

It will be interesting to see if Honda can stay on terms with or ahead of what McLaren can do with a Merc engine in 2021.

With the added interest of McLarens issues with Honda previously.

recyclebin

vectra wrote: »

Why should I try to come up with any reason?
You still fail to come up with your evidence that they were cheating.

How can we show the evidence when it's all been a cover up? No other team has got a sweet heart deal like Ferrari did. My guess is the proof of cheating is in the software code, not in any physical parts. They knew when the fuel flown sensor was making a measurement and exceeded it when the sensor wasn't reading. The new sensor stopped it this year. Its a bit like Red Bulls floppy wing a few years ago. It was obvious for everyone to see it was flexing more than allowed in regulations and it took the FIA far too long to do a proper real load test to stamp it out.

My thoughts are, if you can't test for the legality of something then don't put it in the rulebook. Don't come back a year later and tidy up your testing to match the rules.

El_Duderino 09

vectra wrote: »

Why should I try to come up with any reason?
You still fail to come up with your evidence that they were cheating.

You have right on your side, so it should be easy to explain the reasons why Ferrari chose to use a less powerful engine than last year.

I've said why I think they're doing it. So why do you think they're doing it?

ELM327

Why is there even a discussion about that? I think it's obvious to everyone that the settlement de-powered their engine. Fuel flow restricted.

El_Duderino 09

ELM327 wrote: »

Why is there even a discussion about that? I think it's obvious to everyone that the settlement de-powered their engine. Fuel flow restricted.

It's not obvious to everyone...

ELM327

I mean, I've been a ferrari fan since the Alesi and Berger days but I can accept it for what it was.
Anyone trying to deny is clearly for the birds and as deluded as the lewis superfans

El_Duderino 09

Great to see Seb have a solid race. Making tyres last was never something I thought he was particularly good at. But he did a great job of it in the end and had a spin-free race and a solid haul of points.

He had closed the gap with LeClerc to about 5 seconds but was falling back from LeClerc by a second a lap when the engine blew. Would have been good to see who would have finished ahead on the different strategies.

Hopefully Seb can build on that result.

Joeface

If Vettel does get "improved" results and it is again inspite of the Teams strategic planning , I cannot see Binotto been incharge next year. We all know they were weak at plans but yesterday was brutal .

El_Duderino 09

Joeface wrote: »

If Vettel does get "improved" results and it is again inspite of the Teams strategic planning , I cannot see Binotto been incharge next year. We all know they were weak at plans but yesterday was brutal .

I'd like to see if something changed dramatically that caused ferrari to switch to a one stop strategy.

vectra

Hijpo wrote: »

It will be interesting to see if Honda can stay on terms with or ahead of what McLaren can do with a Merc engine in 2021.

With the added interest of McLarens issues with Honda previously.

It will indeed, but for Adrian Newey, I don't think the Honda engine alone would be enough to keep them in the position they are in.

recyclebin wrote: »

How can we show the evidence when it's all been a cover up? No other team has got a sweet heart deal like Ferrari did. My guess is the proof of cheating is in the software code, not in any physical parts. They knew when the fuel flown sensor was making a measurement and exceeded it when the sensor wasn't reading. The new sensor stopped it this year. Its a bit like Red Bulls floppy wing a few years ago. It was obvious for everyone to see it was flexing more than allowed in regulations and it took the FIA far too long to do a proper real load test to stamp it out.

My thoughts are, if you can't test for the legality of something then don't put it in the rulebook. Don't come back a year later and tidy up your testing to match the rules.

I understood it to be an "Agreement" not a "Cover up"

I agree with you about the rule book though.

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

You have right on your side, so it should be easy to explain the reasons why Ferrari chose to use a less powerful engine than last year.

I've said why I think they're doing it. So why do you think they're doing it?

OH
I thought you said you "Know" why.
But hey,
I am happy in knowing no evidence of "cheating" was ever found.
If you are happy in believing there was then so be it.
Also, I will repeat this one more time.
if you ever show me evidence that the FIA or any other technical group involved in F1 did or does find where the "Cheated", I will absolutely agree with it.
Until then, it is absolute speculation what they were doing.

ELM327 wrote: »

Why is there even a discussion about that? I think it's obvious to everyone that the settlement de-powered their engine. Fuel flow restricted.

Of course it is obvious,
But it never mentioned in the agreement that they were "Cheating"

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

It's not obvious to everyone...

Not Correct.
What you are saying is they were cheating. That was never proven.
And just for the record, I am probably the furthest you would ever find to being a Ferrari fan. I absolutely cannot stand the team.

ELM327 wrote: »

I mean, I've been a ferrari fan since the Alesi and Berger days but I can accept it for what it was.
Anyone trying to deny is clearly for the birds and as deluded as the lewis superfans

As I said above, I am
anything but a Ferrari fan, never was and never would be. Even when Kimi was driving for them, I supported him and not the team.

I for one am not denying Ferrari did "something" last season.
My point is, every time any team worked around the written rules or call it what you will.
Was it blatantly called "Cheating" ?

Anyhow, I have enough of this over and back.
As I said,
Someone show me absolute evidence and I will 100% agree.
Until then, It is speculation and hearsay.

El_Duderino 09

vectra wrote: »

It will indeed, but for Adrian Newey, I don't think the Honda engine alone would be enough to keep them in the position they are in.




I understood it to be an "Agreement" not a "Cover up"

I agree with you about the rule book though.





OH
I thought you said you "Know" why.
But hey,
I am happy in knowing no evidence of "cheating" was ever found.
If you are happy in believing there was then so be it.
Also, I will repeat this one more time.
if you ever show me evidence that the FIA or any other technical group involved in F1 did or does find where the "Cheated", I will absolutely agree with it.
Until then, it is absolute speculation what they were doing.





Of course it is obvious,
But it never mentioned in the agreement that they were "Cheating"



Not Correct.
What you are saying is they were cheating. That was never proven.
And just for the record, I am probably the furthest you would ever find to being a Ferrari fan. I absolutely cannot stand the team.



As I said above, I am
anything but a Ferrari fan, never was and never would be. Even when Kimi was driving for them, I supported him and not the team.

I for one am not denying Ferrari did "something" last season.
My point is, every time any team worked around the written rules or call it what you will.
Was it blatantly called "Cheating" ?

Anyhow, I have enough of this over and back.
As I said,
Someone show me absolute evidence and I will 100% agree.
Until then, It is speculation and hearsay.

OK. Why do you think they're using a less good engine this year?

Hijpo

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

OK. Why do you think they're using a less good engine this year?

In the agreement with the FIA Ferrari agreed to restrict themselves this year to allow Merc win the season before annihilating them for the next 20 years due to a new propulsion system they have created using element 115....

Top Dog

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

OK. Why do you think they're using a less good engine this year?

Jesus H Christ please let it go? This thread is becoming as boring as yesterday's race:rolleyes:

El_Duderino 09

Top Dog wrote: »

Jesus H Christ please let it go? This thread is becoming as boring as yesterday's race:rolleyes:

I'll let it go if Vectra answers the question honestly. Deal Vectra?

To be fair it's just interesting to watch someone dance around to defend a position that they know is indefensible.

quokula

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I'll let it go if Vectra answers the question honestly. Deal Vectra?

To be fair it's just interesting to watch someone dance around to defend a position that they know is indefensible.

Like continuing to spread conspiracy theories and claiming that a team was cheating even though they were investigated and no evidence was found?

PukkaStukka

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I'll let it go if Vectra answers the question honestly. Deal Vectra?

To be fair it's just interesting to watch someone dance around to defend a position that they know is indefensible.

You need to take a leaf out of your own book and answer the question put to you.

recyclebin

I was at the Italian Grand Prix last year when Le Clerc won for Ferrari. I'm not a Ferrari fan but enjoyed the craic with the Tifosi when he won. After seeing how slow this year's Ferrari is after they came to the special agreement with the FIA, I now feel that race win was tainted.

It looks like Mercedes are going to dominate for this season and next which makes for hard viewing even for the most die hard fan.

AMKC

I think one of the big problems at Ferrari over the last f decade or so is that all the drivers that have gone there say oh we need to immerse yourself in the culture and way of Ferrari instead of bringing in something new to the brand from where they drove before and from there own culture. So Fernando could have brought in some of what he learned with McLaren and Renault to it as well as some Spanish humour and drive to it and I do not mean there idea's but ways of working and Vettel something from how he would work with Red Bull and some of his German efficiency too. Yes they have lots of other problems as well but I think that is also part of there problem. Ferrari need to embrace new idea's and new thinking, new ways of thinking if they want to get out of the hole they are in.

pjohnson

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I'll let it go if Vectra answers the question honestly. Deal Vectra?

To be fair it's just interesting to watch someone dance around to defend a position that they know is indefensible.

Or you guys can just take this flirting to private messaging. We dont need to be reading all the pent up sexual tension.

ELM327

pjohnson wrote: »

Or you guys can just take this flirting to private messaging. We dont need to be reading all the pent up sexual tension.

https://www.boards.ie/love.php?match=hot

El_Duderino 09

PukkaStukka wrote: »

You need to take a leaf out of your own book and answer the question put to you.

I've said I don't have proof on a few occasions. But there is evidence that they were cheating. Namely the fact that they have decided to run a less good engine this year. The reason they did that is clearly either last year's engine didn't comply with the rules or they just liked the idea of running a slower engine this year.

Why do you think they've decided to use a less good engine this year?

PukkaStukka

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I've said I don't have proof on a few occasions. But there is evidence that they were cheating.

There is NO FINDING that they were cheating. This is a fact you consistently choose to ignore and / or accept. Whatever evidence or supposition you have is just that. There is NO FINDING from the FIA that the team cheated or ran an illegal engine and therefore you are wholly WRONG to constantly describe the team as cheats or engaged in cheating as you have done in numerous posts here which were called out by me and others. If you listened to the commentary on Sky over the weekend you will also have heard the commentators choose their words most carefully and NOT make any accusations of cheating.

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Why do you think they've decided to use a less good engine this year?

I set out my views here already which are based on facts in the public domain and from credible sources close to the FIA. Perhaps you might kindly read it and reflect on it.

vectra

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I'll let it go if Vectra answers the question honestly. Deal Vectra?

To be fair it's just interesting to watch someone dance around to defend a position that they know is indefensible.

Deal ?
On what? I have nothing to let go of,
You have an accusation of Ferrari cheating buried in your head.
I asked you for proof or evidence of this.

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I've said I don't have proof on a few occasions. But there is evidence that they were cheating. Namely the fact that they have decided to run a less good engine this year. The reason they did that is clearly either last year's engine didn't comply with the rules or they just liked the idea of running a slower engine this year.

Why do you think they've decided to use a less good engine this year?

Maybe you should read this.
You are talking through your hat, as you say, these is plenty of evidence, if so, then where is the proof?

Is evidence and proof the same thing?
In some areas of epistemology and theology, the notion of justification plays approximately the role of proof, while in jurisprudence the corresponding term is evidence, with "burden of proof" as a concept common to both philosophy and law. In most disciplines, evidence is required to prove something

Also,
This will be my last reply to YOU, until YOU or any other member shows me some solid evidence or proof that Ferrari were cheating.

pjohnson

Frank Bullitt

https://twitter.com/_markgallagher/status/1295012191490449409

This tweet stood out to me yesterday as I was hopelessly searching Twitter for some sort of solace.

The nail on the head is "Not a human centric sport", this bit really stood out. All the simulations, engineers, data, blah blah blah. This is why Merc are so far out in front (as well as huge push for the new regs). You could see it after Thrace almost, just a small clap, no hysteria or proper joy.

I sound like a broken record when I say I can't take this anymore etc, but we have this for this year, and the next. Races are more or less defined on a Friday now, no upset or competitiveness (the midfield yes, but does anyone care about what goes on in Division 1 or 2 in football?).

F1 is rupturing viewers, it "fell" by 19.2 million in 2019, but did it really?

When you look at it more, it is even worse than you would expect. The methodology used to calculate viewers was changed by Michal Payne, he worked for the Olympics and IOC. He introduced a new way of measuring, here you go, have a laugh.

The minimum number of minutes which needed to be watched in order to count someone as a viewer was also reduced under Liberty for the first time in 14 years. This change came in 2018 when it lowered the threshold from 15 non-consecutive minutes to only three consecutive minutes. It means that all it takes to be counted as a viewer of F1 is to watch just three consecutive minutes of the sport at any time during the season.

You can see that they did this to make F1 look appealing to investors as it is listed on the Nasdaq, so they had to put lipstick on a pig.

F1, right now, is a shambles, we know this. But I really wasn't aware of how much of a shambles it is. I seem to do this on the Monday after every race now. It is tiring.