Formula 1 2020 - General Discussion Thread (See MOD warning on first post)

Cork Trucker

Gintonious wrote: »

So Williams and McLaren are not following through with the protest towards RP...Merc having a few words with them I wonder?

One current and one future Mercedes customer, someone pulled a metaphorical gun

Frank Bullitt

Cork Trucker wrote: »

One current and one future Mercedes customer, someone pulled a metaphorical gun

That leaves Ferrari, Renault, Haas, Alfa Romeo, RB and AT to do something, if they even decide to.

H3llR4iser

Gintonious wrote: »

So Williams and McLaren are not following through with the protest towards RP...Merc having a few words with them I wonder?

Oh dear...sh1t is hitting the fan. This can potentially make "spygate" look like children copying assignments.



Williams should be very careful - in the unlikely event a full investigation and penalties will be dished out, most likely in the form of deleted/removed constructor's points, their very survival would be pretty much impossible.

Frank Bullitt

H3llR4iser wrote: »

Oh dear...sh1t is hitting the fan. This can potentially make "spygate" look like children copying assignments.



Williams should be very careful - in the unlikely event a full investigation and penalties will be dished out, most likely in the form of deleted/removed constructor's points, their very survival would be pretty much impossible.

What do you mean by that?

mickdw

H3llR4iser wrote: »

Oh dear...sh1t is hitting the fan. This can potentially make "spygate" look like children copying assignments.



Williams should be very careful - in the unlikely event a full investigation and penalties will be dished out, most likely in the form of deleted/removed constructor's points, their very survival would be pretty much impossible.

How have you implicated Williams in this?

Harika

muckwarrior wrote: »

Because he's not the worst.

I'd choose him over Stroll/Grosjean/Magnussen/Giovinazzi/Latifi, and he's probably equal to a handful of other drivers.

Stroll and latifi are pay drivers so won't go away, although stroll hinted he might get dropped.
For the rest. Two Ferrari academy drivers are getting ready. Shwartzman and Illott. Depending on Kimi we might see one at sauber and one at Haas. For Giovanazzi, Ferrari is highly loyal, that's why they kept Massa that long.
Tsunoda might replace Kyvat, he is 9 points away from the super license. If a team gets for sale, mazepin might buy it for his son.

H3llR4iser

Gintonious wrote: »

What do you mean by that?

mickdw wrote: »

How have you implicated Williams in this?

Because this is much more of a political struggle about Mercedes influence in F1, rather than where Racing Point finishes on track. In these regards, the fact two customer teams (one current, one prospective) suddenly decided "ah, all fine for us!", is a clear indication that they were pressured into such position by Mercedes. As such, it's an easy leverage for the other teams to use - it can be viewed as Williams/McLaren being aware of suspicious behavior and not reporting it, dragging them into the whole mess.

Most likely not gonna happen (at WORST, RP will lose more points), but worth for them to be a bit careful and "sit this out", for what they can.

rock22

Gintonious wrote: »

That leaves Ferrari, Renault, Haas, Alfa Romeo, RB and AT to do something, if they even decide to.

It was interersting that Coulthard on C4 took a very soft approach with his questions with RP. And they then allowed Toto Wolff free rein to suggest have legal action against anyone and everyone, by Stroll, if RP did not get their way. I found his statement very worrying, at the least, perhaps even sinister. It seems the one person linking all these together is Toto himself.

vectra

rock22 wrote: »

It was interersting that Coulthard on C4 took a very soft approach with his questions with RP. And they then allowed Toto Wolff free rein to suggest have legal action against anyone and everyone, by Stroll, if RP did not get their way. I found his statement very worrying, at the least, perhaps even sinister. It seems the one person linking all these together is Toto himself.

Yeah,
Looks like he is on a mission to wrap all the Merc engined teams around him to protect themselves.

On another note,
I read a post on Facebook that a friend of a friend that knows someone in the engineering dept. of Red Bull, said that they have "explosive" documentation about Merc's involvement in this.
Probably hearsay.

El_Duderino 09

Gintonious wrote: »

So Williams and McLaren are not following through with the protest towards RP...Merc having a few words with them I wonder?

Absolutely. It's not coincidence. Maybe they can scan (buy) some parts next year if they keep their mouths shut.

It's exactly what it looks like. If Mercedes wasn't involved, why would they stop it's customer teams from protesting another customer team from potentially illegally copying their designs? - designs which cost them time and money to develop.

mickdw

H3llR4iser wrote: »

Because this is much more of a political struggle about Mercedes influence in F1, rather than where Racing Point finishes on track. In these regards, the fact two customer teams (one current, one prospective) suddenly decided "ah, all fine for us!", is a clear indication that they were pressured into such position by Mercedes. As such, it's an easy leverage for the other teams to use - it can be viewed as Williams/McLaren being aware of suspicious behavior and not reporting it, dragging them into the whole mess.

Most likely not gonna happen (at WORST, RP will lose more points), but worth for them to be a bit careful and "sit this out", for what they can.

Ya i get that much but your comment suggested that williams need to lay low or could have points taken off them as if they too are running merc bits that they should not be.

El_Duderino 09

H3llR4iser wrote: »

Oh dear...sh1t is hitting the fan. This can potentially make "spygate" look like children copying assignments.



Williams should be very careful - in the unlikely event a full investigation and penalties will be dished out, most likely in the form of deleted/removed constructor's points, their very survival would be pretty much impossible.

Williams would have nothing to lose in that situation ad they have no points and already finished last last season and probably this season too.

Cork Trucker

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Williams would have nothing to lose in that situation ad they have no points and already finished last last season and probably this season too.

They could lose their engine supply, god only knows what Wolff said behind closed doors. As well as RP I reckon Mercedes themselves are hiding something. As was already said, there’s a long way to go in this saga

skipper_G

Far more obvious reason why Williams and McLaren are happy to let Ferrari and Renault continue with the appeal and back down themselves. Money. An appeal like this involves lawyers, they cost money, a LOT of money. Williams are actively looking for investment just to survive, McLaren had to do some major refinancing this year already.

But I suppose it's so much easier to believe Toto Wolff told McLaren and Williams to back down because Mercedes are dirty cheaters and everything needs covering up :rolleyes:

AMKC

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Williams would have nothing to lose in that situation ad they have no points and already finished last last season and probably this season too.

I disagree about them finishing last this season. I would say that will either be Alfa Romeo or Haas and William's will finish ahead of both of them.

El_Duderino 09

skipper_G wrote: »

Far more obvious reason why Williams and McLaren are happy to let Ferrari and Renault continue with the appeal and back down themselves. Money. An appeal like this involves lawyers, they cost money, a LOT of money. Williams are actively looking for investment just to survive, McLaren had to do some major refinancing this year already.

But I suppose it's so much easier to believe Toto Wolff told McLaren and Williams to back down because Mercedes are dirty cheaters and everything needs covering up :rolleyes:

Mclaren are in the thick of it. They should be clearly ahead of RP this year of not for it being a copy of last year's merc.

If you think it's just coincidence that it's Mercedes+customers against the rest, then you're not being realistic. If it wasn't a deal involving Mercedes then Mercedes would be the first ones to appeal.

Cork Trucker

Gintonious wrote: »

That leaves Ferrari, Renault, Haas, Alfa Romeo, RB and AT to do something, if they even decide to.

I’d certainly hope they do.

skipper_G

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Mclaren are in the thick of it. They should be clearly ahead of RP this year of not for it being a copy of last year's merc.

If you think it's just coincidence that it's Mercedes+customers against the rest, then you're not being realistic. If it wasn't a deal involving Mercedes then Mercedes would be the first ones to appeal.

Coincidence ? No, I don't think that. I think Mclaren and Williams are happy to let Ferrari and Renault spend the money to proceed with the appeal. It's a win win for them, they voiced their objections, don't have to throw cash at it and maybe end up on the wrong side of an argument from their engine supplier (current or future). Is it political? Absolutely, but it's not some grand Mercedes conspiracy like you're painting it out to be.

El_Duderino 09

skipper_G wrote: »

Coincidence ? No, I don't think that. I think Mclaren and Williams are happy to let Ferrari and Renault spend the money to proceed with the appeal. It's a win win for them, they voiced their objections, don't have to throw cash at it and maybe end up on the wrong side of an argument from their engine supplier (current or future). Is it political? Absolutely, but it's not some grand Mercedes conspiracy like you're painting it out to be.

Stall the ball. Why would Mercedes have a problem with one of its customers objecting to RP ripping off Merc's design? Unless, of course, Mercedes is part of the deal.

Of course it's a Mercedes conspiracy. Mercedes exerting influence over its customers to not object to another of its customers buying/copying it's design.

It's exactly what it looks like.

recyclebin

It used to be just Ferrari that had influence over its customers (Alfa and Haas). Looks like Mercedes are going for a power play and flexing there muscles. If Ferrari can have a dodgy cheating engine and get away scot free, then why can't RP have dodgy break ducts?

vectra

recyclebin wrote: »

It used to be just Ferrari that had influence over its customers (Alfa and Haas). Looks like Mercedes are going for a power play and flexing there muscles. If Ferrari can have a dodgy cheating engine and get away scot free, then why can't RP have dodgy break ducts?

Huhh?
What cheating engine?

Inquitus

What do we think about the proposal to ban Qually Mode for engines from Spa in a few of weeks time? I am surprised F1 can do something like that so quickly with no input from the teams. I assume Mercedes would lose the most but all engine manufacturers have a Qually Mode, so everyone will take a step backwards, just some steps will be smaller than others!

The FIA has notified Formula 1 teams it intends to prevent them using high-performance ‘qualifying modes’ from the next round of the championship.

https://www.racefans.net/2020/08/13/why-the-fia-told-teams-it-will-ban-quali-modes-after-this-weekends-race/

Harika

Inquitus wrote: »

What do we think about the proposal to ban Qually Mode for engines from Spa in a few of weeks time? I am surprised F1 can do something like that so quickly with no input from the teams.



https://www.racefans.net/2020/08/13/why-the-fia-told-teams-it-will-ban-quali-modes-after-this-weekends-race/

Good thing to bring teams closer together and is finally what everyone was hoping for to slice a piece out of Mercedes advantage

muckwarrior

Inquitus wrote: »

What do we think about the proposal to ban Qually Mode for engines from Spa in a few of weeks time?

If it reduces Merc's advantage then I'm all for it! Red Bull do seem to have a better race pace in comparison, so I'm hopeful.

Inquitus

Harika wrote: »

Good thing to bring teams closer together and is finally what everyone was hoping for to slice a piece out of Mercedes advantage

It's been a part of F1 since forever though, before the Engines were numerically restricted for a season, they used to use a special engine for qualifying only! They also used to put in a new Engine after every session lol!

vectra

Inquitus wrote: »

It's been a part of F1 since forever though, before the Engines were numerically restricted for a season, they used to use a special engine for qualifying only! They also used to put in a new Engine after every session lol!

I remember it well. crazy times

How can they do that? FFS I hate how Merc have the advantage they have but banning engine modes that are within the fuel flow rate and all the other nonsense restrictions is just insanely unfair.

vectra

Deleted User wrote: »

How can they do that? FFS I hate how Merc have the advantage they have but banning engine modes that are within the fuel flow rate and all the other nonsense restrictions is just insanely unfair.

Unfair to who?

Harika

Inquitus wrote: »

It's been a part of F1 since forever though, before the Engines were numerically restricted for a season, they used to use a special engine for qualifying only! They also used to put in a new Engine after every session lol!

Yeah burning money in the process, that's why there is now a limit of 3 engines.
Overall FIA should have intervened far earlier as teams spend lots of money to get qualifying mode going

muckwarrior

Inquitus wrote: »

They also used to put in a new Engine after every session lol!

And have a whole spare car. I'm trying to remember, did some teams actually have 2 spare cars at one point?