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How will schools be able to go back in September? (Continued)

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    #782
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users Posts: 8,422 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    Lillyfae wrote: »
    I have family members and friends who are educators in Ireland who can't return to work safely because everyone is passing the buck

    So what do they think of the plan?

    Your ire is directed at the wrong people.


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    #783
    square ball
    Registered Users Posts: 391 ✭✭square ball


    khalessi wrote: »
    Just saw this being shared on FB, not my words but interesting viewpoint


    Be honest. If you’re not a teacher, an administrator, or someone who has actually worked in a classroom, then your opinion on what schools SHOULD do is really just what you WANT schools to do.
    You have no expertise, no training, and no practical experience.
    And when you retort that your taxes make your opinion valid, let’s try these scenarios…

    You pay for an airline ticket. I guess that means that the pilot is YOUR employee since you pay his salary. Are you going to demand that he fly the plane the way YOU would do it? Does everyone on the airplane get a say? I mean, they ALL have a vested interest in arriving at their destination safely.

    You hire a plumber. You’re paying him, so he should do things the way you would. You’re just as qualified, right? I mean, you’ve been using bathrooms your whole life.

    You drive a car every day. So when there’s a problem and you bring it to the mechanic, you know exactly how it should be fixed. After all, you’re paying. You should have a say.

    The cry for teachers to “get back to work,” is obnoxious and condescending. It’s also inaccurate. Teachers didn’t stop working when the buildings closed. They did not choose for schools to be closed in March, and they have no say in whether they reopen in September. Most of them WANT to return to school because they love their jobs, and more importantly, love their kids.
    However, they DO have a right to express their concerns. They DO have a right to feel safe in the workplace. And they DO know more than anyone else about the feasibility of the suggested guidelines and whether instruction will be effective when implementing them.
    If your only experience with education is that you went to school or have a child in school, then at least be honest....
    You don’t know what’s best.

    Hiring a private tradesperson or company to fix your car, plumber or using an airline is completely different. You have a choice not to use that particular person or company if you are unhappy with its service/product.

    We are all paying taxes that help run the education sector, pay wages, provide facilities and I am not hearing any teacher or principal trying to solve any of the issues that are being brought up. I am hearing schools can't open because X, Y and Z.

    To me it looks like teachers are trying to dismiss every suggestion and are not being flexible or compromise to work towards acceptable solutions to get the children of Ireland back in the classroom.

    The school's have been closed since March 13th. Why are all these concerns coming to light less than a month before ye are due back? Surely to god everyone knew schools were going to have to open at some stage.

    Every other industry and all employees have had to adapt, improvise and compromise to help keep businesses open or reopen after been closed. Yes teachers are entitled to express their concerns but they need to find solutions like every one else.


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    #784
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users Posts: 8,422 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    square ball wrote: »
    Hiring a private tradesperson or company to fix your car, plumber or using an airline is completely different. You have a choice not to use that particular person or company if you are unhappy with its service/product.

    We are all paying taxes that help run the education sector, pay wages, provide facilities and I am not hearing any teacher or principal trying to solve any of the issues that are being brought up. I am hearing schools can't open because X, Y and Z.

    To me it looks like teachers are trying to dismiss every suggestion and are not being flexible or compromise to work towards acceptable solutions to get the children of Ireland back in the classroom.

    The school's have been closed since March 13th. Why are all these concerns coming to light less than a month before ye are due back? Surely to god everyone knew schools were going to have to open at some stage.

    Every other industry and all employees have had to adapt, improvise and compromise to help keep businesses open or reopen after been closed. Yes teachers are entitled to express their concerns but they need to find solutions like every one else.

    Once again this falls down to the incompetence of the department. Schools and individual teachers didn't draw up the plan. See my other post re my own unions and a body representing primary principals and what happened to the submissions they made to the department.


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    #785
    HerrKuehn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,066 ✭✭✭HerrKuehn


    khalessi wrote: »
    Just saw this being shared on FB, not my words but interesting viewpoint


    Be honest. If you’re not a teacher, an administrator, or someone who has actually worked in a classroom, then your opinion on what schools SHOULD do is really just what you WANT schools to do.
    You have no expertise, no training, and no practical experience.
    And when you retort that your taxes make your opinion valid, let’s try these scenarios…

    You pay for an airline ticket. I guess that means that the pilot is YOUR employee since you pay his salary. Are you going to demand that he fly the plane the way YOU would do it? Does everyone on the airplane get a say? I mean, they ALL have a vested interest in arriving at their destination safely.

    You hire a plumber. You’re paying him, so he should do things the way you would. You’re just as qualified, right? I mean, you’ve been using bathrooms your whole life.

    You drive a car every day. So when there’s a problem and you bring it to the mechanic, you know exactly how it should be fixed. After all, you’re paying. You should have a say.

    The cry for teachers to “get back to work,” is obnoxious and condescending. It’s also inaccurate. Teachers didn’t stop working when the buildings closed. They did not choose for schools to be closed in March, and they have no say in whether they reopen in September. Most of them WANT to return to school because they love their jobs, and more importantly, love their kids.
    However, they DO have a right to express their concerns. They DO have a right to feel safe in the workplace. And they DO know more than anyone else about the feasibility of the suggested guidelines and whether instruction will be effective when implementing them.
    If your only experience with education is that you went to school or have a child in school, then at least be honest....
    You don’t know what’s best.

    I think in fairness there are vested interests on all sides. The teachers are not free from any bias either are they? The analogy is also false, I would imagine someone buying an airline ticket would expect to get to their destination, not dictate how the pilot flies the plane. Also, teachers don't have any particular experience in running a school during a pandemic either do they? They aren't expected to either, that is the job of the BOM, principal and DES. This thread keeps going round and round in circles. The government has decided to put opening schools as a top priority. Presumably there will be local closures etc during the year as needed.


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    #786
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users Posts: 8,422 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    vid36 wrote: »
    The problems regarding school buses particularly in rural areas have not received enough attention in my opinion. Many drivers and providers operate multiple routes serving both primary and secondary schools. With social distancing required on buses per ECDC guidelines as well as much stricter hygiene requirements (bus cleaned and sanitised after each run), it will probably lead to staggered opening times.However, so far guidelines are silent on this and the logistics are complex.

    Up to the now the departments position has been to pack the buses as per normal, sit in the same seat, sit with a sibling(imagine the crying at home over this) or sit with a child from your class 'pod'. We all know this won't be happening.


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    #787
    Warbeastrior
    Registered Users Posts: 378 ✭✭Warbeastrior


    downthemiddle wrote:
    Nothing in place for them at the moment. There is a circular overdue which is meant to clarify staffing issues.

    Oh really? I know an SNA with severe OCD and they are really struggling ATM and that's with the pandemic in general. They said they wud have happily gave up their summer holidays if it meant the virus was completely gone.


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    #788
    Stateofyou
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,431 ✭✭✭Stateofyou


    wirelessdude01 wrote: »
    You see it on here when issues are raised and mostly the responses are lazy teachers don't want to work, put them on the Covid payment and they'll go back, the country needs the schools open to get the economy back again, we need to think about the children, teachers looking a pay increase, teachers looking for danger money, dastardly unions preventing the country from getting back to normal.

    Principals are doing what they have to get the schools open within the framework they have been given. Unions in my opinion are playing a blinder. They are pointing out the flaws and issues but aren't banging the table in annoyance. Slowly but surely I'm seeing parents and the media taking the plan apart and demanding change.

    Coming from us that would be twisted into something else. Indeed I can't remember was it on this thread or another similar one but someone was claiming that teachers were protesting outside the dail this week looking for a pay increase. Utter lies but why let the truth get in the way of fabricating a story to suit their own narrative.

    If the plan is to be changed in any meaningful way they the drive for this needs to come from the parent body. I know my own union put forward a very comprehensive reopening document to the department shortly after Easter, so to did the national primary principals forum. Guess what? Points raised and solutions offered were pretty much ignored in the plan outlined. So yes we have pointed out the issues but until there is a outcry from the media and parents then nothing will happen.

    If I wasn't on boards, I wouldn't know any of this. I wouldn't know anything about schools struggling to implement changes and that support systems and funding (and reality) just isn't there. This is my point exactly. I know parents would get involved and get loud, of course we would. So my point on this whole thread still is, where is the communication from the school? How can parents organise and outcry and we're left in the dark and faced with a wall of silence from our schools? Principles, BOM's, teachers, everyone - needs to speak up now and send out the communication and make us fully aware. Of what is going on at a national level and what that means for our own individual schools. We don't know to fight, or what to fight for if they're not informing us.


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    #789
    khalessi
    Registered Users Posts: 6,215 ✭✭✭khalessi


    square ball wrote: »
    Hiring a private tradesperson or company to fix your car, plumber or using an airline is completely different. You have a choice not to use that particular person or company if you are unhappy with its service/product.

    We are all paying taxes that help run the education sector, pay wages, provide facilities and I am not hearing any teacher or principal trying to solve any of the issues that are being brought up. I am hearing schools can't open because X, Y and Z.

    To me it looks like teachers are trying to dismiss every suggestion and are not being flexible or compromise to work towards acceptable solutions to get the children of Ireland back in the classroom.

    The school's have been closed since March 13th. Why are all these concerns coming to light less than a month before ye are due back? Surely to god everyone knew schools were going to have to open at some stage.

    Every other industry and all employees have had to adapt, improvise and compromise to help keep businesses open or reopen after been closed. Yes teachers are entitled to express their concerns but they need to find solutions like every one else.

    Easy we have been raising them for months but that has been ignored. Just because you are only aware of them recently does not mean they were not raised prior to now.

    Suggestions for reopening were sent in months by INTO and IPPN - ignored.

    You can read the previous 7 threads since March to see that teachers were aware of schools reopening and that we want to go back. This has been said a million times on various threads.

    Highlighting inadequacies with a plan does not equal not wanting to open schools. What you dont see is how hard the problems are trying to be solved in schools. If I launched a boat with holes in it and you had bought a ticket. Would you quietly board or raise the issue?

    Thank you for your input.


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    #790
    vid36
    Registered Users Posts: 573 ✭✭✭vid36


    Per the ECDC report
    "Crowding in public transport and their use by large numbers of people can contribute to direct transmission of
    COVID-19 through respiratory droplets and indirect transmission through contaminated surfaces. The use of public
    transportation or other shared transportation by students and school staff can play a substantial role in the
    potential transmission of COVID-19. Physical distancing during transport, wearing face masks and cleaning and
    disinfection of the frequently touched surfaces of school buses should be implemented".


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    #791
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users Posts: 8,422 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    https://www.rte.ie/news/education/2020/0807/1157917-face-masks-schools/

    Looks like masks on the way at secondary level based on the whisperings/leaks to the media.


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    #792
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users Posts: 8,422 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    vid36 wrote: »
    Per the ECDC report
    "Crowding in public transport and their use by large numbers of people can contribute to direct transmission of
    COVID-19 through respiratory droplets and indirect transmission through contaminated surfaces. The use of public
    transportation or other shared transportation by students and school staff can play a substantial role in the
    potential transmission of COVID-19. Physical distancing during transport, wearing face masks and cleaning and
    disinfection of the frequently touched surfaces of school buses should be implemented".

    I know of a bus company locally that does runs to two different primary schools and then heads off to do runs for secondary level. No way can the buses be disinfected between runs.


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    #793
    bettyoleary
    Registered Users Posts: 400 ✭✭bettyoleary


    square ball wrote: »
    Hiring a private tradesperson or company to fix your car, plumber or using an airline is completely different. You have a choice not to use that particular person or company if you are unhappy with its service/product.

    We are all paying taxes that help run the education sector, pay wages, provide facilities and I am not hearing any teacher or principal trying to solve any of the issues that are being brought up. I am hearing schools can't open because X, Y and Z.

    To me it looks like teachers are trying to dismiss every suggestion and are not being flexible or compromise to work towards acceptable solutions to get the children of Ireland back in the classroom.

    The school's have been closed since March 13th. Why are all these concerns coming to light less than a month before ye are due back? Surely to god everyone knew schools were going to have to open at some stage.

    Every other industry and all employees have had to adapt, improvise and compromise to help keep businesses open or reopen after been closed. Yes teachers are entitled to express their concerns but they need to find solutions like every one else.
    The CV situation is rapidly changing. No one is able to predict on a daily basis. What remains the same is that the virus spreads in enclosed environments without good ventilation, hence schools are unsafe.

    Simple really


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    #794
    PowerToWait
    Registered Users Posts: 1,775 ✭✭✭PowerToWait


    vid36 wrote: »
    Per the ECDC report
    "Crowding in public transport and their use by large numbers of people can contribute to direct transmission of
    COVID-19 through respiratory droplets and indirect transmission through contaminated surfaces. The use of public
    transportation or other shared transportation by students and school staff can play a substantial role in the
    potential transmission of COVID-19. Physical distancing during transport, wearing face masks and cleaning and
    disinfection of the frequently touched surfaces of school buses should be implemented".

    Not sure how they can square this with the assertion today that schools are safe and do not contribute to the spreading of the virus?


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    #795
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users Posts: 8,422 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    Question for parents of 4th, 5th and 6th class children.

    Would you be happy for your child to wear a visor in the classroom?

    Just heard this was discussed at a meeting of the education stakeholders (hate that term) today.


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    #796
    TheValeyard
    Registered Users Posts: 12,304 ✭✭✭✭TheValeyard


    wirelessdude01 wrote: »
    https://www.rte.ie/news/education/2020/0807/1157917-face-masks-schools/

    Looks like masks on the way at secondary level based on the whisperings/leaks to the media.

    Yep. Staff and students. Common sense.

    All Eyes On Rafah



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    #797
    rameire
    Registered Users Posts: 4,134 ✭✭✭rameire


    wirelessdude01 wrote: »
    Question for parents of 4th, 5th and 6th class children.

    Would you be happy for your child to wear a visor in the classroom?

    Just heard this was discussed at a meeting of the education stakeholders (hate that term) today.

    Yes.

    🌞 3.8kwp, 🌞 Split 2.28S, 1.52E. 🌞 Clonee, Dub.🌞



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    #798
    Smacruairi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭Smacruairi


    Lillyfae wrote: »
    God love the poor principals who were all forced into the job

    :confused::confused::confused:

    Very confused, we agreed only a few days ago that the DES were inept, that the schools and BOMs were trying their best. I gave you as much insight into the senior roles as I could as someone intimately involved in the planning in my school. I thought we had come to an agreement and respectful partnership.

    Now you're back firing off about school principals and everything else? What happened to we are all in this together!? What happened to respecting the experts?

    Just because you are unaware of negotiations and discussions doesn't mean they are not happening. The principals had a mass meeting last week sure. If the schools haven't articulated something, it's because it isn't ready to announce yet. This entitlement to know every single thing that is going on is ridiculous, why are you not asking the same of Norma and McHugh? That's where the targeted questioning should occur.

    Parents are partners in education. Schools want to work with them. But the more they treat schools as service providers the more the walls go up.


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    #799
    downthemiddle
    Registered Users Posts: 2,948 ✭✭✭downthemiddle


    Lillyfae wrote: »



    How many do you know that are doing something? I'm having a discussion, I'm as right as you are because this figure isn't being measured either way.

    I could name a couple of hundred that I know and each of them is doing everything they possibly can to make the best of a bad situation.
    I'm also aware of one of the principals referenced as not stepping up to the mark. However, her professional standards, or lack of, are not a Covid related issue. Her behaviour and lack of professionalism could never be defended. Her reputation goes before her and she does not reflect the vast majority of principals and teachers.


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    #800
    Ludo
    Registered Users Posts: 5,015 ✭✭✭Ludo


    Face covering mandatoru for all students on post-primary regardless of social distancing...

    – Face coverings are recommended that are reusable and washed once every day as is consistent with the recommendation to wear face coverings in other contexts such as on public transport, in shops and indoors where a 2m physical distance cannot be maintained.

    – Students at post primary level, apart from specific exemptions will be required to wear face coverings in the classroom.

    – All staff and students using the post-primary school transport service will be required to wear face coverings on the bus.

    – Staff, including teachers at both primary and post primary levels, who cannot maintain a 2m distance from students or other staff will be required to wear face coverings.


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    #801
    SusanC10
    Registered Users Posts: 2,432 ✭✭✭SusanC10


    wirelessdude01 wrote: »
    Question for parents of 4th, 5th and 6th class children.

    Would you be happy for your child to wear a visor in the classroom?

    Just heard this was discussed at a meeting of the education stakeholders (hate that term) today.

    Yes, absolutely. My 5th Class Daughter wants to wear both Mask and Visor.


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    #802
    SusanC10
    Registered Users Posts: 2,432 ✭✭✭SusanC10


    On the School Buses, our one has Primary and Secondary Kids on it at the same time.


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    #803
    downthemiddle
    Registered Users Posts: 2,948 ✭✭✭downthemiddle


    Ludo wrote: »
    Face covering mandatoru for all students on post-primary regardless of social distancing...

    – Face coverings are recommended that are reusable and washed once every day as is consistent with the recommendation to wear face coverings in other contexts such as on public transport, in shops and indoors where a 2m physical distance cannot be maintained.

    – Students at post primary level, apart from specific exemptions will be required to wear face coverings in the classroom.

    – All staff and students using the post-primary school transport service will be required to wear face coverings on the bus.

    – Staff, including teachers at both primary and post primary levels, who cannot maintain a 2m distance from students or other staff will be required to wear face coverings.
    Inevitable really, despite certain posters categorically stating that no student would be forced to wear masks.


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    #804
    combat14
    Registered Users Posts: 2,158 ✭✭✭combat14


    laois, kildare and offaly gone back into lockdown again.. pile of businesses to close.. school re-openings to continue..


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    #805
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users Posts: 8,422 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    downthemiddle wrote: »
    Inevitable really, despite certain posters categorically stating that no student would be forced to wear masks.

    I await comment from one in particular on this.


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    #806
    Smacruairi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭Smacruairi


    wirelessdude01 wrote: »
    I await comment from one in particular on this.

    But but but her opinion, it was so important, how could they ignore it.it wasn't a fringe trumpian opinion at all...


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    #807
    downthemiddle
    Registered Users Posts: 2,948 ✭✭✭downthemiddle


    wirelessdude01 wrote: »
    I await comment from one in particular on this.

    In fairness to her (not something I ever thought I would say), she overstepped the mark, apologised and stepped away from the thread. I hope for her own sake she stays away.


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    #808
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users Posts: 8,422 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    Smacruairi wrote: »
    But but but her opinion, it was so important, how could they ignore it.it wasn't a fringe trumpian opinion at all...

    They could reply with a 'it is what it is' comment.


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    #809
    Stateofyou
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,431 ✭✭✭Stateofyou


    wirelessdude01 wrote: »
    Question for parents of 4th, 5th and 6th class children.

    Would you be happy for your child to wear a visor in the classroom?

    Just heard this was discussed at a meeting of the education stakeholders (hate that term) today.

    Happier with a mask even.


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    #810
    bettyoleary
    Registered Users Posts: 400 ✭✭bettyoleary


    SusanC10 wrote: »
    Yes, absolutely. My 5th Class Daughter wants to wear both Mask and Visor.
    Ahhh ;) This I where I feel sorry for the kids. Well done to your daughter, I bet shes a really lovely girl.


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    #811
    downthemiddle
    Registered Users Posts: 2,948 ✭✭✭downthemiddle


    Warbeastrior wrote: »
    Oh really? I know an SNA with severe OCD and they are really struggling ATM and that's with the pandemic in general. They said they wud have happily gave up their summer holidays if it meant the virus was completely gone.

    Circular 49/2020 just published
    https://www.education.ie/en/Circulars-and-Forms/Active-Circulars/cl0049_2020.pdf


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