Masks

Graham · 02-08-2020 11:59AM

Perspective is indeed needed.

The minor inconvenience of wearing a mask when in enclosed public spaces, viewed against the very real risk that the numbers of infected citizens will jump and more drastic measures will need to be taken again.

As is happening in many countries already.

_Kaiser_ · 02-08-2020 12:02PM

Boggles wrote: »

Wearing a mask is an additional preventative measure so we don't have to go back to staying at home.

See Melbourne.

Do you think washing your hands or physical distancing is fear mongering?

Graham wrote: »

Perspective is indeed needed.

The minor inconvenience of wearing a mask when in inclosed public spaces, viewed against the very real risk that the numbers of infected citizens will jump and more drastic measures will need to be taken again.

As is happening in many countries already.

Again, more fear and speculation to justify the argument.

More testing than ever is finally occurring so of COURSE we're going to find more cases. But despite this, the numbers in ICU remain in single digits.

Explain how that reality squares with your statement above. Then try how we managed to reduce the numbers over the last 6 weeks despite a wider reopening of society and yet without the magic of masks for most of it.

There's certainly no need to STAY HOME again. You could argue that after perhaps the first month, there never was.

tromtipp · 02-08-2020 12:03PM

Yes: surgical

I wash mine with the same soap I use to wash my hands when I get home at the same time as I wash the hands - saves water. Then after rinsing it, put it in a heatproof bowl and pour some boiling water over it. Take it out after a few minutes and air dry it.

v638sg7k1a92bx · 02-08-2020 12:07PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I guess it depends on whether you want to assume the worst and live in fear of catching the virus.. or take no symptoms or other ill effects over a prolonged period as a sign that you're OK

Sure, you COULD have it - but the probabilities are extremely low.

And let's not forget that this virus is not an instant death sentence for all who catch it. Some will die yes (generally older or with underlying issues), but the vast majority will recover even if they do get it.

This is why the ever increasing count of cases every day is pointless and scare-mongering. It says nothing about recovery or current status. ICU admissions are extremely low. Deaths in this country are (on the whole for a pandemic) extremely low - and again significantly driven by the factors above.

But the fear is rampant. Ditto this superior attitude from those who rush to show their compliance by attacking those who stop to question the reality around them vs the "expert advice" from experts who themselves generally can't agree, and whose pronouncements are skewed by the fact that their entire goal as doctors is to get the count to zero.
An admirable and desirable goal for sure, but again not based in the near/medium-term reality, which is that we need to balance the need for precautions against the other demands of a society and economy.

Wear masks if you feel safer. But don't mistake it for what it is (given the ineffectiveness of many of them - whether it be the mask itself or how it's being (re)used) - a placebo. As it's not required in most scenarios you still are exposed to the possibility of contracting the virus anyway, unless you "mask up" full time when you set foot outside your front door.

But as I've said before, MASK UP has become the new STAY HOME (maybe RTE should put it under the station ident on TV) - a social media led crusade like many others where the only answer is you're with us or against us.

Some perspective is badly needed.

Well said.

Just take this example from Rte yesterday. https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.rte.ie/amp/1156885/
The article opens with

“A Berlin protest against coronavirus restrictions drew thousands, from the hard left and right to conspiracy theorists.”

So now anyone who questions the status quo is either far right, far left or a conspiracy theorist.

Graham · 02-08-2020 12:10PM

There's been a protest in Berlin including some reported conspiracy theorists so we don't need to wear masks?

one armed dwarf · 02-08-2020 12:10PM

No: other

I just don't see how a measure as benign as wearing a mask really inhibits the economy much at all, certainly compared to the prospect of more quarantines.

When left unchecked the virus is dangerous, why that's still up for debate I'm not certain on either when it's easy to lookup the excess death rates in places like New York from when they were an epicentre for the disease.

If the masks even provide as little as a 10% mitigation of cases and ICU admissions along with other measures that don't involve shutting everything down for another month then that's surely a good thing. On the off chance you or a loved one is unlucky enough to develop a severe illness (maybe not even a COVID illness) then a bed is more likely to be available for you in this time when capacity can be challenged at short notice. Even if you feel fine right now

WRT daily reporting of cases, exponential reproduction of a virus will catch up on you quick. A small number can become a big one extremely quickly

Graham · 02-08-2020 12:13PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Explain how that reality squares with your statement above. Then try how we managed to reduce the numbers over the last 6 weeks despite a wider reopening of society and yet without the magic of masks for most of it.

People started to move around slowly/carefully as the restrictions were eased.

There are enough examples Internationally of what happens when complacency sets in and people revert back to normal behaviour.

Spain, increasing infections, increasing restrictions.
France, increasing infections, increasing restrictions.
UK, increasing infections, increasing restrictions,
Australia, increasing infections, increasing restrictions.
......

limnam · 02-08-2020 12:13PM

Graham wrote: »

There's been a protest in Berlin including some reported conspiracy theorists so we don't need to wear masks?

While I wear one myself and don't see what the fuss is in wearing one.

The _real_ problem is social distancing/awareness. Not the lack of masks IMO.

Graham · 02-08-2020 12:14PM

one armed dwarf wrote: »

WRT daily reporting of cases, exponential reproduction of a virus will catch up on you quick. A small number can become a big one extremely quickly

Exactly

900 -> 20,000 in 5 weeks earlier this year.

MadYaker · 02-08-2020 12:16PM

Yes: surgical

It’s the same people who said lockdown was never needed because Ireland didn’t end up like Italy. If we don’t end up back in lockdown kaiser will be back on here saying “see! it never got that bad, masks weren’t needed”. You can take a horse to water but you can’t make it drink.

odyssey06 · 02-08-2020 12:33PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Again, more fear and speculation to justify the argument.

You are using words like 'fear' and 'speculation' as slogans to prejudice the argument.
If we are concerned about future deaths does it always mean we are using 'fear' to justify an argument?
If we are concerned about something that has yet to occur, isn't there always some 'speculation' behind it?

When you put on a seatbelt getting into a car, are you doing it from fear because you speculate you could have an accident?
See how easy it is to prejudice and sloganise a reasonable thing to do.

If we had entered lockdown 1 week earlier we could have saved hundreds of lives. Would there have been fearful speculation? Was it fearful speculation to enter lockdown in the first place when we had little number of cases and deaths?

It's not fearful speculation to be concerned about another second wave and a move back into restriction phases.

_Kaiser_ · 02-08-2020 12:37PM

MadYaker wrote: »

It’s the same people who said lockdown was never needed because Ireland didn’t end up like Italy. If we don’t end up back in lockdown kaiser will be back on here saying “see! it never got that bad, masks weren’t needed”. You can take a horse to water but you can’t make it drink.

As I said before, lockdown was an appropriate response in the early stages to get the public's attention as to the seriousness of the situation at the time, to buy the time needed to allow the health service to ramp up and respond, and to give space needed to come up with a more strategic response.

But reopening was dragged out by the weak previous government effectively abdicating its responsibilities to Dr Tony and NPHET, and then further delaying things while they decided who would be Taoiseach next.

However, I remember many posts from the same people who now attack others for not wearing masks, complaining about people disregarding the advice and getting out and about again, or breaking the travel limits etc. Yet despite this increased activity in June, numbers remained low - partly because the HSE still wasn't ready of course, but also because this virus is not the death sentence some coverage and speculation would have you believe.

As was the case in lockdown, so is the case now. This virus is not deadly to the majority of people (and let's not forget that this is a GOOD THING), we have a better understanding of who IS at increased or significant risk and advice for how they can better protect themselves - limited shopping trips, isolating themselves more etc.

But for everyone else, the risk is low (again, a GOOD THING). Now, you can certainly take the worst case scenario of "what if" or "what about" as many responses here are, or you can accept that life is taking risks every day - some small or trivial, some significant or dangerous - and adjust your thinking and routine accordingly.

But the suggestion that we'll have to go back into lockdown with less than 10 cases in ICU and daily numbers which are about expected for the increased activity and testing (and which reflect no certainty of outcome of those cases) is frankly nonsense and fear driven.

Stop watching the daily numbers, reading the flood of analysis and speculation and start trying to live your life again. By all means keep informed, but not to the point that situations on the other side of the world will cause you hesitation when you go for a slice pan here.

odyssey06 · 02-08-2020 12:38PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

But the fear is rampant. Ditto this superior attitude from those who rush to show their compliance by attacking those who stop to question the reality around them vs the "expert advice" from experts who themselves generally can't agree

Oh look it's the already rebutted experts disagree angle.
You're writing another blank cheque there which can be cashed by anyone from anti-vaxxers to whatever you're having yourself.
Sure let's lift all the restrictions so or show me that all experts agree on all restrictions.

If experts disagree on masks, can you find me the health authorities around the world who have told people not to wear a mask in enclosed spaces - in the last month, since the CDC etc updated their advice. Against that in the balance are our own authorities, the CDC and authorities across Europe who have updated their advice to recommend wearing of masks in enclosed public places.

Graham · 02-08-2020 12:43PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

But the suggestion that we'll have to go back into lockdown with less than 10 cases in ICU and daily numbers which are about expected for the increased activity and testing (and which reflect no certainty of outcome of those cases) is frankly nonsense and fear driven.

Nobody suggested 10 cases = lockdown.

That's most definitely fearmongering.

Loafing Oaf · 02-08-2020 12:48PM

No: I don't care enough

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Wear masks if you feel safer. But don't mistake it for what it is (given the ineffectiveness of many of them - whether it be the mask itself or how it's being (re)used) - a placebo.

A placebo is a substance with no effects that a doctor gives to a patient instead of a drug.
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/placebo

Are you claiming masks have been proven to have 'no effect' on the spread of covid?

oleras · 02-08-2020 12:56PM

joeguevara wrote: »

You know a bear is a large animal found in many habitats from forests to polar regions which determines their genus and colour. If you are going to make a bad joke at least learn to spell.

There is another type of Bear....

odyssey06 · 02-08-2020 12:59PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Stop watching the daily numbers, reading the flood of analysis and speculation and start trying to live your life again. By all means keep informed, but not to the point that situations on the other side of the world will cause you hesitation when you go for a slice pan here.

Over a thousand people died HERE.
No need to look to the other side of the world.

Not sure what any of the above has to do with masks?
Are you only showing hestitation if you wear a mask?
What about social distancing, hand santisers, capacity limits on buses and shops?
Sure why bother with any coronavirus measures or restrictions with that fundamental attitude?

Away With The Fairies · 02-08-2020 01:02PM

Yes: valved

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

As I said before, lockdown was an appropriate response in the early stages to get the public's attention as to the seriousness of the situation at the time, to buy the time needed to allow the health service to ramp up and respond, and to give space needed to come up with a more strategic response.

But reopening was dragged out by the weak previous government effectively abdicating its responsibilities to Dr Tony and NPHET, and then further delaying things while they decided who would be Taoiseach next.

However, I remember many posts from the same people who now attack others for not wearing masks, complaining about people disregarding the advice and getting out and about again, or breaking the travel limits etc. Yet despite this increased activity in June, numbers remained low - partly because the HSE still wasn't ready of course, but also because this virus is not the death sentence some coverage and speculation would have you believe.

As was the case in lockdown, so is the case now. This virus is not deadly to the majority of people (and let's not forget that this is a GOOD THING), we have a better understanding of who IS at increased or significant risk and advice for how they can better protect themselves - limited shopping trips, isolating themselves more etc.

But for everyone else, the risk is low (again, a GOOD THING). Now, you can certainly take the worst case scenario of "what if" or "what about" as many responses here are, or you can accept that life is taking risks every day - some small or trivial, some significant or dangerous - and adjust your thinking and routine accordingly.

But the suggestion that we'll have to go back into lockdown with less than 10 cases in ICU and daily numbers which are about expected for the increased activity and testing (and which reflect no certainty of outcome of those cases) is frankly nonsense and fear driven.

Stop watching the daily numbers, reading the flood of analysis and speculation and start trying to live your life again. By all means keep informed, but not to the point that situations on the other side of the world will cause you hesitation when you go for a slice pan here.

Can I ask what country are you living in with less than 10 cases daily?

kris_2021 · 02-08-2020 01:06PM

There u go - example of experts that do not agree with mask wearing:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8583925/amp/The-land-no-face-masks-Hollands-scientists-say-theres-no-solid-evidence-coverings-work.html

Bravo Holland. Use your brain people.
Only professional masks worn correctly make sense - not cloth mask worn for weeks or single use ones used for days.
USA, Australia, Spain and many other countries made masks mandatory weeks ago and cases are soaring.

Graham · 02-08-2020 01:09PM

kris_2021 wrote: »

There u go - example of experts that do not agree with mask wearing:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8583925/amp/The-land-no-face-masks-Hollands-scientists-say-theres-no-solid-evidence-coverings-work.html

Bravo Holland. Use your brain people.

How's that working out?

That last column is 431 new cases on Aug 1st.

kris_2021 · 02-08-2020 01:12PM

Graham wrote: »

How's that working out?

Compare this with Australia, USA, Spain and come back. Or even better with closest neighbour Belgium.

ddarcy · 02-08-2020 01:12PM

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

A placebo is a substance with no effects that a doctor gives to a patient instead of a drug.
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/placebo

Are you claiming masks have been proven to have 'no effect' on the spread of covid?

Depends on the mask and usage.

Here is what Finland says (btw they have dealt with this a million times better than Leo and Ireland)

“ The Government will not issue a general recommendation on the use of face masks. Masks can be used to protect other people in places and situations where it is not possible to avoid close contact. Such situations may be encountered, for example, in public transport during rush hour.

If you want to use a face mask, it is important to remember primary preventive measures as well, such as washing your hands and following good coughing hygiene.

There is no evidence that the extensive use of masks by healthy people will help reduce infections. Using a face mask may reduce the spread of respiratory secretions (droplets) to your surroundings. In this way, they can also reduce transmission caused by asymptomatic virus carriers.”

I highlighted (Hope I did anyways) the bits that have been completely forgotten since masks became pseudo-required. Also, “may” reduce does not mean “will” reduce.

The page also states that surgical masks are what are needed to be worn if wearing a mask.

Graham · 02-08-2020 01:14PM

kris_2021 wrote: »

Compare this with Australia, USA, Spain and come back. Or even better with closest neighbour Belgium.

You think cases doubling in a week is what we should be working towards?

kris_2021 · 02-08-2020 01:15PM

ddarcy wrote: »

Depends on the mask and usage.

Here is what Finland says (btw they have dealt with this a million times better than Leo and Ireland)

“ The Government will not issue a general recommendation on the use of face masks. Masks can be used to protect other people in places and situations where it is not possible to avoid close contact. Such situations may be encountered, for example, in public transport during rush hour.

If you want to use a face mask, it is important to remember primary preventive measures as well, such as washing your hands and following good coughing hygiene.[\b]

There is no evidence that the extensive use of masks by healthy people will help reduce infections. Using a face mask may reduce the spread of respiratory secretions (droplets) to your surroundings[\b]. In this way, they can also reduce transmission caused by asymptomatic virus carriers.”

I highlighted (Hope I did anyways) the bits that have been completely forgotten since masks became pseudo-required. Also, “may” reduce does not mean “will” reduce.

The page also states that surgical masks are what are needed to be worn if wearing a mask.

Could not agree more. Only professional masks worn properly make sense. Don't know why rte watchers do not understand this?

Jim_Hodge · 02-08-2020 01:18PM

Yes: homemade

Away With The Fairies wrote: »

Can I ask what country are you living in with less than 10 cases daily?

Where does it state 10 cases daily?

kris_2021 · 02-08-2020 01:19PM

Graham wrote: »

You think cases doubling in a week is what we should be working towards?

No - these are examples of countries forcing people into wearing masks. There is your evidence - they do not work. Compare Belgium and Netherlands for better understanding.

Second wave or continuation wave is coming and cloth/plastic masks are not the answers.

Spiderman0081 · 02-08-2020 01:24PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

As I said before, lockdown was an appropriate response in the early stages to get the public's attention as to the seriousness of the situation at the time, to buy the time needed to allow the health service to ramp up and respond, and to give space needed to come up with a more strategic response.

But reopening was dragged out by the weak previous government effectively abdicating its responsibilities to Dr Tony and NPHET, and then further delaying things while they decided who would be Taoiseach next.

However, I remember many posts from the same people who now attack others for not wearing masks, complaining about people disregarding the advice and getting out and about again, or breaking the travel limits etc. Yet despite this increased activity in June, numbers remained low - partly because the HSE still wasn't ready of course, but also because this virus is not the death sentence some coverage and speculation would have you believe.

As was the case in lockdown, so is the case now. This virus is not deadly to the majority of people (and let's not forget that this is a GOOD THING), we have a better understanding of who IS at increased or significant risk and advice for how they can better protect themselves - limited shopping trips, isolating themselves more etc.

But for everyone else, the risk is low (again, a GOOD THING). Now, you can certainly take the worst case scenario of "what if" or "what about" as many responses here are, or you can accept that life is taking risks every day - some small or trivial, some significant or dangerous - and adjust your thinking and routine accordingly.

But the suggestion that we'll have to go back into lockdown with less than 10 cases in ICU and daily numbers which are about expected for the increased activity and testing (and which reflect no certainty of outcome of those cases) is frankly nonsense and fear driven.

Stop watching the daily numbers, reading the flood of analysis and speculation and start trying to live your life again. By all means keep informed, but not to the point that situations on the other side of the world will cause you hesitation when you go for a slice pan here.

Very well said

limnam · 02-08-2020 01:27PM

Graham wrote: »

You think cases doubling in a week is what we should be working towards?

This is what I'm seeing.

Increase in people not making use of sanitation available in shops
Standing around the front doors groups of aul wans and aul lads talking in groups and blocking up entry doors.
Lack of spacial awareness and social distancing guidelines.

Social distancing is what works. IMO you shouldn't be anywhere that can be avoided. All non essentials should remain closed. WFH where possible etc.

Once you loosen up the way we have you're sending the wrong messages to people who then get complacent. It looks like the majority are unable to think for themselves and struggle with evaluating personal risk.

All more important than masks

Seanergy · 02-08-2020 01:30PM

Yes: valved

kris_2021 wrote: »

Second wave or continuation wave is coming and cloth/plastic masks are not the answers.

Plastic masks? Maybe you have not read the thread from the start?

Graham · 02-08-2020 01:30PM

kris_2021 wrote: »

No - these are examples of countries forcing people into wearing masks. There is your evidence - they do not work. Compare Belgium and Netherlands for better understanding.

Second wave or continuation wave is coming and cloth/plastic masks are not the answers.

The article you linked to has the following title:

The land with no face masks:

Cases have more than doubled in a week.

I don't think that really makes the point you were hoping.

Masks

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