How will schools be able to go back in September?

blanch152 · 31-07-2020 10:37AM

khalessi wrote: »

As has been mentioned here before a few times, NPhet have been behind the ball a few times on certain things, like masks as they were trying to save the supply for HCW so didnt promote them until there were ample stock.

There are now numerous studies showing children transmit the virus as easily as adults. So teachers are not asking for schools to be closed but for proper safety measures. It is amazing that posters here see restrictions in all walks of life everyday and yet are happy enough to think it is ok to just open the schools willy nilly.

We get it, the schools need to be reopened, the economy has to get back on its feet at all costs, but the children should not be the cost and doing it safely for them should be paramount. No one is saying dont open schools what is being said is open them properly and safely. Maybe the well educated teachers opinions should be trusted for once.

There are not numerous studies showing children transmit the virus as easily as adults, that simply is not true.

To date, there have been conflicting studies, but in actual contract tracing, very few, if any, cases that have been confirmed as being due to contact with children.

What a small number of the studies have shown is that children seem to carry a similar virus load, but somehow, and the scientists are puzzled by this, it is not resulting in infection of others. The HSE actually sum it up quite well:

https://www2.hse.ie/conditions/coronavirus/protecting-your-child.html

"Coronavirus (COVID-19) can affect children as well as adults.

But very few cases have been reported in children around the world. Children also seem to get a milder infection than adults or older people.

Coronavirus is a new virus. We are still learning about it."

They also have another page worth reading:

https://www2.hse.ie/wellbeing/dealing-with-fake-health-information-during-the-coronavirus-pandemic.html

Here is the type of conclusions that the experts are reaching on this issue:

https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-06-schools-evidence-kids-coronavirus.html

"The research still suggests that while children can be infected with COVID-19, it is uncommon. They also don't seem to pass the disease on as efficiently as adults do, and cases of child-to-child infection are uncommon. And when children do get infected, they don't seem to get very sick."

Forget about the children and the classroom setting. Teachers are more likely to get coronavirus in a school by congregating outside classrooms, in staff rooms and kitchens, complaining about the way they are spoken about on boards, than in the actual classroom itself.

am_zarathustra · 31-07-2020 10:38AM

timmy_mallet wrote: »

Everything since those lockdowns has been an experiment. It's a little disingenuous to suggest schools are any more or less of one than opening restaurants, for example, or kids football training and playing matches again.

There are initial stats from Israel, several large outbreaks and a third of cases within a month coming directly from education centres......so that gets us until October. We know the countries that have kept schools open for any lenght of time made classes smaller, less than 15, and used PPE. I agree we don't know everything but an educated reading of current research will tell you what needs to be done. The government promised to open the schools with all students back and they are hoping somehow schools will make this happen

blanch152 · 31-07-2020 10:38AM

combat14 wrote: »

just seen that millions of homes in northern England (greater Manchester and Yorkshire areas) have gone back into lockdown

Less than half of adults fully respecting social distancing – UK ONS

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jul/30/lockdown-tightened-in-parts-of-northern-england-with-ban-on-indoor-meetings

we are going to need serious health and safety induction before letting students into schools and frequent reminders too

there will have to be immediate sanctions for staff and students if they dont adhere to regulations

I don't think the students are the problem. Transmission between teachers because of adults not respecting social distancing is a much higher risk than teachers getting it from children.

joe40 · 31-07-2020 10:44AM

blanch152 wrote: »

I don't think the students are the problem. Transmission between teachers because of adults not respecting social distancing is a much higher risk than teachers getting it from children.

So teachers are all going to huddle in tight groups, while ignoring social distancing.

So I presume you would say the same about nurses and doctors, or shop workers.

I'm all for reasonable debate but that is just a nonsense comment.

combat14 · 31-07-2020 10:45AM

am_zarathustra wrote: »

There are initial stats from Israel, several large outbreaks and a third of cases within a month coming directly from education centres......so that gets us until October. We know the countries that have kept schools open for any lenght of time made classes smaller, less than 15, and used PPE. I agree we don't know everything but an educated reading of current research will tell you what needs to be done. The government promised to open the schools with all students back and they are hoping somehow schools will make this happen

if schools only make it till October or november we need to have systems in place then for remote learning to take place after that or else we will be back to where we were in march

there doesnt seem to be any mention of appropriate resources and training being made available for this in the plan, which seems to be negligent in the extreme

am_zarathustra · 31-07-2020 10:48AM

blanch152 wrote: »

There are not numerous studies showing children transmit the virus as easily as adults, that simply is not true.

To date, there have been conflicting studies, but in actual contract tracing, very few, if any, cases that have been confirmed as being due to contact with children.

What a small number of the studies have shown is that children seem to carry a similar virus load, but somehow, and the scientists are puzzled by this, it is not resulting in infection of others. The HSE actually sum it up quite well:

https://www2.hse.ie/conditions/coronavirus/protecting-your-child.html

"Coronavirus (COVID-19) can affect children as well as adults.

But very few cases have been reported in children around the world. Children also seem to get a milder infection than adults or older people.

Coronavirus is a new virus. We are still learning about it."

They also have another page worth reading:

https://www2.hse.ie/wellbeing/dealing-with-fake-health-information-during-the-coronavirus-pandemic.html

Here is the type of conclusions that the experts are reaching on this issue:

https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-06-schools-evidence-kids-coronavirus.html

"The research still suggests that while children can be infected with COVID-19, it is uncommon. They also don't seem to pass the disease on as efficiently as adults do, and cases of child-to-child infection are uncommon. And when children do get infected, they don't seem to get very sick."

Forget about the children and the classroom setting. Teachers are more likely to get coronavirus in a school by congregating outside classrooms, in staff rooms and kitchens, complaining about the way they are spoken about on boards, than in the actual classroom itself.

I mean this is very poorly written science, even the references are to other popular science articles not papers, it's also over a month old. This is a rapidly evolving situation. Given the complexity of modelling transmission accurately we are only seeing the start of decent research being published early online now. I agree that staff are the biggest risk but an 18 year old is a risk according to any study I've read.

The South Korean study is not perfect but it's the best I've seen so far and the numbers were large enough for it to be statistically interesting.

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/10/20-1315_article

It's showing over tens as the same as adults and under tens about a half. Infectivity is going to be a function of height and lung size, the exact numbers will take time but it will be related to those factors and viral load.

lulublue22 · 31-07-2020 10:49AM

blanch152 wrote: »

I don't think the students are the problem. Transmission between teachers because of adults not respecting social distancing is a much higher risk than teachers getting it from children.

So if any outbreaks occur in schools it will be due to teachers irresponsible behaviour in not following public health guidance. Damned if you do and damned if you don’t it seems.

This thread has really jumped the shark at this stage.

The Unbearables · 31-07-2020 10:50AM

combat14 wrote: »

just seen that millions of homes in northern England (greater Manchester and Yorkshire areas) have gone back into lockdown

Less than half of adults fully respecting social distancing – UK ONS

we are going to need serious health and safety induction before letting students into schools and frequent reminders too

there will have to be immediate sanctions for staff and students if they dont adhere to regulations

It will be impossible to make teenagers social distance in my experience.

The Unbearables · 31-07-2020 10:54AM

Getting kids back to school safely is a priority for this country. We need strong political leadership from the front 24/7 from now until the end of August and what do we get the complete opposite as political leaders head off on their holidays.

caveat emptor · 31-07-2020 10:55AM

blanch152 wrote: »

It is amazing to see so many well-educated teachers willing to ignore the professional advice from NPHET and give in to their irrational fears.

The risk in schools is low. The sooner they are back, the better.

Yeah the risk in the dog food factory was very low until it wasn’t.

I mean community transmission was very low.
They had 0 cases for 2 months.
Then in one day they go from 0 to 20?

How did that happen?
They must have all been sneezing in each other’s faces.

alroley · 31-07-2020 10:55AM

This thread is absolutely comical.

Boggles · 31-07-2020 10:58AM

blanch152 wrote: »

But very few cases have been reported in children around the world.

:pac:

Alrigghtythen · 31-07-2020 10:58AM

combat14 wrote: »

if schools only make it till October or november we need to have systems in place then for remote learning to take place after that or else we will be back to where we were in march

there doesnt seem to be any mention of appropriate resources and training being made available for this in the plan, which seems to be negligent in the extreme

Pg 46 and 47 of the the road map

Supporting Teaching and Learning in the home where there is localised school closures

wirelessdude01 · 31-07-2020 11:09AM

timmy_mallet wrote: »

Everything since those lockdowns has been an experiment. It's a little disingenuous to suggest schools are any more or less of one than opening restaurants, for example, or kids football training and playing matches again.

Just repeating what the man said.

caveat emptor · 31-07-2020 11:13AM

blanch152 wrote: »

There are not numerous studies showing children transmit the virus as easily as adults, that simply is not true.

"Coronavirus (COVID-19) can affect children as well as adults.

But very few cases have been reported in children around the world. Children also seem to get a milder infection than adults or older people.

Coronavirus is a new virus. We are still learning about it."

I love a good caveat.

am_zarathustra · 31-07-2020 11:17AM

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

Pg 46 and 47 of the the road map

Supporting Teaching and Learning in the home where there is localised school closures

You mean where it says teachers will do it, no bother at all using appropriate platforms they may never have used and doesn't mention centralised training. I worked in IT so we have a platform in the school and I do the training and sort issues....this is not the norm.

Thierry12 · 31-07-2020 11:18AM

combat14 wrote: »

just seen that millions of homes in northern England (greater Manchester and Yorkshire areas) have gone back into lockdown

Less than half of adults fully respecting social distancing – UK ONS

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jul/30/lockdown-tightened-in-parts-of-northern-england-with-ban-on-indoor-meetings

we are going to need serious health and safety induction before letting students into schools and frequent reminders too

there will have to be immediate sanctions for staff and students if they dont adhere to regulations

After Dominic Cummings UK will never be able to inforce lockdown again

saabsaab · 31-07-2020 11:24AM

I don't see them being open in September. Perhaps October maybe?

Murple · 31-07-2020 11:24AM

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

Did he say anything about some teachers wanting the department to come to their class and point out commonly touched items for them?

This is a door handle. Many people touch it. Etc?

If you had a clue about the behaviour of children, you'd know that virtually everything within reach is a commonly touched object. Watch a class going anywhere and at least half the children will be running their hands along the wall. If they stand near something, they tend to touch it. They will pick things up and put them to their face or mouth or nose. It's not that unknown to see younger children lick surfaces such as windows or metal poles. They are children. Have you never seen a child in a supermarket or shop?

No one wants the department to come to the class and point out commonly touched items. What the department need to do is acknowledge that the classroom plans they published are unrealistic and impossible to implement in most schools. Teachers know what happens in schools. They know what it's like day to day. That's why they are so concerned. They are concerned for themselves and their families. They are concerned for their pupils and their pupils families.

Why is that so difficult to understand.

Icantthinkof1 · 31-07-2020 11:30AM

Could the government bring out some incentive to allow parents of vulnerable children or those living with vulnerable adults to stay home and homeschool their primary school aged children
That would be one measure that could lessen the numbers of children in a classroom.

jrosen · 31-07-2020 11:32AM

our secondary school has emailed, stating they plan a phased return over a 5/6 day period but are still planning an Aug 27th return date. They always do a phased return

The schools is huge, plenty of space, wide corridors too. Locker rooms will be an issue and students coming on buses. Good to see them make contact with parents.

lulublue22 · 31-07-2020 11:43AM

Icantthinkof1 wrote: »

Could the government bring out some incentive to allow parents of vulnerable children or those living with vulnerable adults to stay home and homeschool their primary school aged children
That would be one measure that could lessen the numbers of children in a classroom.

I know you are very concerned re the return to school due to one of your children being recently diagnosed. As far as I’m aware the gov have only mentioned at very high risk to be catered for at local level. Which in reality means the school will try and accommodate those children as best they can from SET allocation. The difficulty for most parents is that the at very high risk group is quite a narrow definition. If you google HSE at risk you should find an explanation of the different categories. Though it was difficult personally to ascertain if my own child fell into the at risk or high risk group so wishy washy was the guidance. Once you’ve spoken to the gp / consultant I would contact the principal at outline your concerns. Principals in general are very supportive and are well aware of peoples concerns.

ETA maybe the above didn’t actually address your question - they could but they haven’t so far so I’m not sure why they would now. The gov seem (as far as I can tell from the guidelines ) to be working off the premise that children aren’t substantial transmitters of the disease nor affected by it to any great extent.

Icantthinkof1 · 31-07-2020 11:52AM

lulublue22 wrote: »

I know you are very concentered re the return to school due to one of your children being recently diagnosed. As far as I’m aware the gov have only mentioned at very high risk to be catered for at local level. Which in reality means the school will try and accommodate those children as best they can from SET allocation. The difficulty for most parents is that the at very high risk group is quite a narrow definition. If you google HSE at risk you should find an explanation of the different categories. Though it was difficult personally to ascertain if my own child fell into the at risk or high risk group so wishy washy was the guidance. Once you’ve spoken to the gp / consultant I would contact the principal at outline your concerns. Principals in general are very supportive and are well aware of peoples concerns.

Thanks Lulublue22 I’ve emailed the principal’s just to notify them of their conditions.
I agree with the wishy washyness of it all according to the HSE’s list they would fall into the very high risk category.
I’m liaising now with their GP and consultant to come up with a possible risk assessment to see what measures the school may need to put in place or if school will even be an option for them going forward and have told the principals I would keep them informed.

lulublue22 · 31-07-2020 11:59AM

Icantthinkof1 wrote: »

Thanks Lulublue22 I’ve emailed the principal’s just to notify them of their conditions.
I agree with the wishy washyness of it all according to the HSE’s list they would fall into the very high risk category.
I’m liaising now with their GP and consultant to come up with a possible risk assessment to see what measures the school may need to put in place or if school will even be an option for them going forward and have told the principals I would keep them informed.

Delighted to hear that. It’s a worrying time for parents with vulnerable children.

iamwhoiam · 31-07-2020 12:04PM

Icantthinkof1 wrote: »

Thanks Lulublue22 I’ve emailed the principal’s just to notify them of their conditions.
I agree with the wishy washyness of it all according to the HSE’s list they would fall into the very high risk category.
I’m liaising now with their GP and consultant to come up with a possible risk assessment to see what measures the school may need to put in place or if school will even be an option for them going forward and have told the principals I would keep them informed.

Wishing you the best of luck and I hope the children get all the help and support they need .

Icantthinkof1 · 31-07-2020 12:09PM

Thanks so much iamwhoiam

Mr E · 31-07-2020 12:13PM

Mod: Cut out the teacher bashing please. It's getting tiresome.

St.Spodo · 31-07-2020 12:34PM

blanch152 wrote: »

There are not numerous studies showing children transmit the virus as easily as adults, that simply is not true.

To date, there have been conflicting studies, but in actual contract tracing, very few, if any, cases that have been confirmed as being due to contact with children.

What a small number of the studies have shown is that children seem to carry a similar virus load, but somehow, and the scientists are puzzled by this, it is not resulting in infection of others. The HSE actually sum it up quite well:

https://www2.hse.ie/conditions/coronavirus/protecting-your-child.html

"Coronavirus (COVID-19) can affect children as well as adults.

But very few cases have been reported in children around the world. Children also seem to get a milder infection than adults or older people.

Coronavirus is a new virus. We are still learning about it."

They also have another page worth reading:

https://www2.hse.ie/wellbeing/dealing-with-fake-health-information-during-the-coronavirus-pandemic.html

Here is the type of conclusions that the experts are reaching on this issue:

https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-06-schools-evidence-kids-coronavirus.html

"The research still suggests that while children can be infected with COVID-19, it is uncommon. They also don't seem to pass the disease on as efficiently as adults do, and cases of child-to-child infection are uncommon. And when children do get infected, they don't seem to get very sick."

Forget about the children and the classroom setting. Teachers are more likely to get coronavirus in a school by congregating outside classrooms, in staff rooms and kitchens, complaining about the way they are spoken about on boards, than in the actual classroom itself.

I wouldn't want to bet on any of that. The study mentioned here suggests that children over the age of 10 transmit the virus 'at least as well as adults.'
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/18/health/coronavirus-children-schools.html

combat14 · 31-07-2020 12:46PM

interesting to see in a lot of retail stores they ask customers to leave items they touch but dont buy to be left on a separate shelf to be thoroughly sanitised before redisplay again

will this be part of the plan for items touched by the masses in schools

what additional resources will be allocated for cleaning toilets in buildings with hundreds to thousands of people in third level

the toilets are always a massive source of regular complaint in schools/colleges even in a good year and could be a breeding ground for C19......

iamwhoiam · 31-07-2020 12:57PM

combat14 wrote: »

interesting to see in a lot of retail stores they ask customers to leave items they touch but dont buy to be left on a separate shelf to be thoroughly sanitised before redisplay again

will this be part of the plan for items touched by the masses in schools

what additional resources will be allocated for cleaning toilets in buildings with hundreds to thousands of people in third level

the toilets are always a massive source of regular complaint in schools/colleges even in a good year and could be a breeding ground for C19......

Gosh I haven’t come across any retail doing that ? It would be impossible in M and S for example or Pennys !

My question is if there was any mention of coats and jackets in primary school ? Our school have hangers on the corridors outside the classrooms for coats
When my own went there many moons ago we parents took their coats home for weeks as there was a huge outbreak of headlice one year .

How will schools be able to go back in September?

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