How will schools be able to go back in September?

sideswipe · 30-07-2020 05:06PM

Thanks Lulublue. As part of the assessment we were advised to get some extra home support. Homeschooling would be an option because of the nature of our work but she loves school, her teachers and her friends too much for that. I suppose I’m wonders if there are Qualified primary teachers that don’t teach in school settings but rather work privately? It’s come up in conversation with some other parents that if school was to end up closed again or blended learning it might be an option to set up a smaller, more manageable group in a home setting with a teacher where the issues of hygiene, SD, ventilation etc etc could be managed far better with 3 or 4 families sharing the cost for a full or partial week.

ldy4mxonucwsq6 · 30-07-2020 05:11PM

chocoholic999 wrote: »

Masks will be mandatory if the school cannot implement the 1m SD.

Where exactly does it say that because that's not what I've read in the guidelines?

Masks won't be mandatory in our schools.

The schools are an exception otherwise they wouldn't have been closed for 6 months.

If it was that easy then why didn't we just make it mandatory back in May and open back up the schools then?

The countries that have "recommended" masks for pupils were closed for a few weeks at most.

If it wasn't masks it'd be some other sticking point.

Bobtheman · 30-07-2020 05:20PM

sideswipe wrote: »

Thanks Lulublue. As part of the assessment we were advised to get some extra home support. Homeschooling would be an option because of the nature of our work but she loves school, her teachers and her friends too much for that. I suppose I’m wonders if there are Qualified primary teachers that don’t teach in school settings but rather work privately? It’s come up in conversation with some other parents that if school was to end up closed again or blended learning it might be an option to set up a smaller, more manageable group in a home setting with a teacher where the issues of hygiene, SD, ventilation etc etc could be managed far better with 3 or 4 families sharing the cost for a full or partial week.

Try schooldays.ie they have adverts there

lulublue22 · 30-07-2020 05:21PM

sideswipe wrote: »

Thanks Lulublue. As part of the assessment we were advised to get some extra home support. Homeschooling would be an option because of the nature of our work but she loves school, her teachers and her friends too much for that. I suppose I’m wonders if there are Qualified primary teachers that don’t teach in school settings but rather work privately? It’s come up in conversation with some other parents that if school was to end up closed again or blended learning it might be an option to set up a smaller, more manageable group in a home setting with a teacher where the issues of hygiene, SD, ventilation etc etc could be managed far better with 3 or 4 families sharing the cost for a full or partial week.

Honest answer I don’t know but given the lack of subs at local levelI’d doubt it. You will also need to factor in that the gov will be setting up national sub panels and will be looking to boost sub numbers. I can’t think why any qualified teacher now would opt for a private arrangement due to prsi/ sick pay issues etc . It might suit a local retired person but they are retired for a reason and in the present circumstances it may not be appealing.

am_zarathustra · 30-07-2020 05:23PM

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

Where exactly does it say that because that's not what I've read in the guidelines?

Masks won't be mandatory in our schools.

The schools are an exception otherwise they wouldn't have been closed for 6 months.

If it was that easy then why didn't we just make it mandatory back in May and open back up the schools then?

The countries that have "recommended" masks for pupils were closed for a few weeks at most.

If it wasn't masks it'd be some other sticking point.

Sigh, there are a number of documents to read, some specific to topics or school stage. This is from Framework for physical distancing in post primaries.

"In exceptional circumstances, where notwithstanding the application of the measures in the above framework, physical distancing by organisational means for a larger class proves not to be possible, then the school must consider the use of face covering/visors in that larger class. This exceptional measure should be kept continually under review by the school, who should continually make every effort to devise an alternative solution using the measures set out at 1 to 6 above.

The use of face coverings/visors must be implemented where the 1 metre distance cannot be achieved. For example:

(a) more than 24 students in a 49sq classroom that has been fully cleared
(b) more than 20 students in a 42sqm classroom.

Staff or students who cannot wear face coverings or visors for health reasons should be based in other classrooms or areas wherever possible. Students should not be required to wear face coverings or visors for the duration of the whole school day."

Many schools will be in this position anyway, we have several, very small rooms.

I also noticed you completely ignored the information I provided from probably the most impressive collection of scientists in the world......but sure, I'd say the lads in the DOE know best

chocoholic999 · 30-07-2020 05:30PM

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

Where exactly does it say that because that's not what I've read in the guidelines?

Masks won't be mandatory in our schools.

The schools are an exception otherwise they wouldn't have been closed for 6 months.

If it was that easy then why didn't we just make it mandatory back in May and open back up the schools then?

The countries that have "recommended" masks for pupils were closed for a few weeks at most.

If it wasn't masks it'd be some other sticking point.

It’s in the framework for social distancing. Another poster has posted the relevant paragraph. The fact is that some schools just won’t be able to implement 1m SD, even after implementing everything in the roadmap. Students in those schools will have to wear masks for any class where SD is impossible.

Spanish Eyes · 30-07-2020 05:35PM

Don't kill me yet, but what about visors for everyone. They are ok from a breathing pov, you can see and hear people aswell. I've used them. They cost (I think) a tenner in Super Valu.

Just wondered if this could be something to be explored rather than other either dubious or futile suggestions.

Hand gel at every move too. One for everyone in the audience. Use the "optional" donation for Schools to invest in PPE maybe now?

I caveat my post by saying that I have no school going kids now, so be kind.

chocoholic999 · 30-07-2020 05:41PM

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Don't kill me yet, but what about visors for everyone. They are ok from a breathing pov, you can see and hear people aswell. I've used them. They cost (I think) a tenner in Super Valu.

Just wondered if this could be something to be explored rather than other either dubious or futile suggestions.

Hand gel at every move too. One for everyone in the audience. Use the "optional" donation for Schools to invest in PPE maybe now?

I caveat my post by saying that I have no school going kids now, so be kind.

Visors would certainly be more comfortable than masks. Others have posted that they are not a effective as masks though but I’m not sure.

combat14 · 30-07-2020 05:41PM

just heard of 3 teachers not coming back from dubai this year wonder what the numbers of available of staff will be like for next year

BonsaiKitten · 30-07-2020 05:43PM

sideswipe wrote: »

Thanks Lulublue. As part of the assessment we were advised to get some extra home support. Homeschooling would be an option because of the nature of our work but she loves school, her teachers and her friends too much for that. I suppose I’m wonders if there are Qualified primary teachers that don’t teach in school settings but rather work privately? It’s come up in conversation with some other parents that if school was to end up closed again or blended learning it might be an option to set up a smaller, more manageable group in a home setting with a teacher where the issues of hygiene, SD, ventilation etc etc could be managed far better with 3 or 4 families sharing the cost for a full or partial week.

I've seen a lot of talk about American parents doing that so I expect that some Irish will look into it. I'd say there are some immunocompromised or retired teachers who won't return to the classroom (some would have subbed previously) who might be happy to do it, particularly in November as people often retire then. If your child wasn't going back to school that could be a good strategy. Not sure where you'd find them though.

If your child is going back to school then you probably just want a primary teacher to do grinds with your child, an hour or two would make a world of difference. There are a lot of teachers out there who do them, edposts/noticeboards etc are good places to look.

wirelessdude01 · 30-07-2020 05:45PM

combat14 wrote: »

just heard of 3 teachers not coming back from dubai this year wonder what the numbers of available of staff will be like for next year

And the way the health professionals were treated anyone giving up a contract abroad to come back and 'don the green jersey' needs their heads knocked together.

Spanish Eyes · 30-07-2020 05:46PM

chocoholic999 wrote: »

Visors would certainly be more comfortable than masks. Others have posted that they are not a effective as masks though but I’m not sure.

Better than blended learning or them all cramming in 30 to a class with an uncomfortable mask I would think. And the teacher can be seen and heard and vice versa. Might be worth a shot.

Alrigghtythen · 30-07-2020 05:50PM

am_zarathustra wrote: »

"Students, faculty and other employees should wear masks properly at all times. Face shields, while not as good as masks — droplets can enter or exit from the bottom or sides — are better than nothing and an option for those who for medical reasons are unable to wear a mask. Everyone should wash hands or sanitize them every hour or so. Adequate ventilation and rigorous nightly cleaning of facilities with disinfectants will also need to be aspects of these return-to-school strategies.

Schools need to reduce class size to allow students to be 6 feet apart. Recommendations from the National Academies of Sciences, Engineering and Medicine and data from other countries suggest some 10 to 15 students in a regular classroom is about right. Students should also be assigned to “pods” or “cohorts” — small groups to limit the number of people they interact with throughout the day. Students should not change classrooms — teachers should — and student arrivals and departures should be staggered."

This is the advice from the NASEM. We probably have two scientist in the whole country that could maybe hope to ever work for this organisation given the type of credentials required. I believe their advice in actually valid. I don't for a second believe any scientist/researcher (and I know a fair few and was one before I became a teacher) would stand over the current guidelines. The ASTI are absolutely right to query them

There is a great study done early on in China in a restaurant on spread, completely dependent on where the person was in relation to the person shedding viral particles and the air conditioning unit!! The kids will all be in hoodies and coats!!

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/20/health/airflow-coronavirus-restaurants.html

National Academies of Sciences, Engineering and Medicine also recommends using tents and canopy as extra classroom space. There should be plenty of ventilation in those.

ldy4mxonucwsq6 · 30-07-2020 05:51PM

chocoholic999 wrote: »

It’s in the framework for social distancing. Another poster has posted the relevant paragraph. The fact is that some schools just won’t be able to implement 1m SD, even after implementing everything in the roadmap. Students in those schools will have to wear masks for any class where SD is impossible.

So they can wear a visor if the school does not have available space to meet the criteria and they don't have a medical reason not to wear one.

Students still won't have to wear masks though, they can wear a visor (in "exceptional circumstances") which is much more comfortable than a mask (or they can get a note and be excused from wearing any face covering and be moved to a room where social distancing is possible).

"The school must consider" does not equal they have to.

Specifically states that any face covering is not to be worn all day either.

And nothing of the sort for primary I take it.

wirelessdude01 · 30-07-2020 05:51PM

am_zarathustra wrote: »

(a) more than 24 students in a 49sq classroom that has been fully cleared
(b) more than 20 students in a 42sqm classroom.

Quick question, does this also apply at upper primary level? I have 28 in a space that I think measures approx 52sqm at most.

am_zarathustra · 30-07-2020 05:54PM

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Better than blended learning or them all cramming in 30 to a class with an uncomfortable mask I would think. And the teacher can be seen and heard and vice versa. Might be worth a shot.

They are categorically not as safe. The only way it would be safe for the teacher would be if all the students wore masks and they wore a shield but it's worth noting that the teacher could be sheding virus then so would need to be very mindful of staying 2m away. I agree though, given the distance we will be at a mask would really muffle the voice.

Masks for kids, shields for teachers, that's what I would have assumed the recommendation would have been as that is very clearly what research is saying.

I'd be happy with that to be honest

Spanish Eyes · 30-07-2020 05:56PM

On a more studious note, does anyone know if DES has had any contact with their counterparts in countries where schools reopened months ago now?

How are they getting on? Has there been a spike or spikes? What do they recommend and so on.

Just wondered.

Rimmy · 30-07-2020 05:57PM

am_zarathustra wrote: »

They are categorically not as safe. The only way it would be safe for the teacher would be if all the students wore masks and they wore a shield but it's worth noting that the teacher could be sheding virus then so would need to be very mindful of staying 2m away. I agree though, given the distance we will be at a mask would really muffle the voice.

Masks for kids, shields for teachers, that's what I would have assumed the recommendation would have been as that is very clearly what research is saying.

I'd be happy with that to be honest

Would rather everyone had a face shield. Masks just lead to necessary face touching.

bmc58 · 30-07-2020 05:57PM

am_zarathustra wrote: »

They are categorically not as safe. The only way it would be safe for the teacher would be if all the students wore masks and they wore a shield but it's worth noting that the teacher could be sheding virus then so would need to be very mindful of staying 2m away. I agree though, given the distance we will be at a mask would really muffle the voice.

Masks for kids, shields for teachers, that's what I would have assumed the recommendation would have been as that is very clearly what research is saying.

I'd be happy with that to be honest

A five year old in Senior Infants cannot be expected to wear a mask.

Spanish Eyes · 30-07-2020 06:00PM

am_zarathustra wrote: »

They are categorically not as safe. The only way it would be safe for the teacher would be if all the students wore masks and they wore a shield but it's worth noting that the teacher could be sheding virus then so would need to be very mindful of staying 2m away. I agree though, given the distance we will be at a mask would really muffle the voice.

Masks for kids, shields for teachers, that's what I would have assumed the recommendation would have been as that is very clearly what research is saying.

I'd be happy with that to be honest

The students will not be heard much though, you can imagine the sh!ts and giggles behind their masks in class! I understand the current research on masks but that seems to change by the minute too, in a school setting it is not ideal from what I am reading.

I hope that teachers get the protection they want and need. If I were a teacher I'd absolutely insist on a visor for myself anyway.

ldy4mxonucwsq6 · 30-07-2020 06:02PM

bmc58 wrote: »

A five year old in Senior Infants cannot be expected to wear a mask.

Don't worry they won't be, it will be very normal school situation for that age or as close to normal as possible.

chocoholic999 · 30-07-2020 06:08PM

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

So they can wear a visor if the school does not have available space to meet the criteria and they don't have a medical reason not to wear one.

Students still won't have to wear masks though, they can wear a visor (in "exceptional circumstances") which is much more comfortable than a mask (or they can get a note and be excused from wearing any face covering and be moved to a room where social distancing is possible).

"The school must consider" does not equal they have to.

Specifically states that any face covering is not to be worn all day either.

And nothing of the sort for primary I take it.

Yes, visors are mentioned, that might be more comfortable. As I said, just in classes where SD not possible so not all day. No one knows yet how many post primary schools will need to do this. I have only read post primary guidelines so no idea about primary.

Leftwaffe · 30-07-2020 06:09PM

caveat emptor wrote: »

What does the new information mean in context of pandemic. We can control risk but assuming only droplet transmission is now 100% wrong. The measures taken in most parts of society haven’t addressed this yet. Will take time to mitigate but common sense regard windows and airflow should be applied.

Don’t take my word for it. Here’s a different random guy on Internet who has a credential or two and is willing to share them with you.

https://twitter.com/alinouriphd/status/1288838288065933313?s=21

Sorry but we're we not all under the impression it is transmitted through the air? Isn't that why we are all wearing masks?? I don't get how this is new information. Although I would like to be enlightened.

downthemiddle · 30-07-2020 06:16PM

sideswipe wrote: »

Thanks Lulublue. As part of the assessment we were advised to get some extra home support. Homeschooling would be an option because of the nature of our work but she loves school, her teachers and her friends too much for that. I suppose I’m wonders if there are Qualified primary teachers that don’t teach in school settings but rather work privately? It’s come up in conversation with some other parents that if school was to end up closed again or blended learning it might be an option to set up a smaller, more manageable group in a home setting with a teacher where the issues of hygiene, SD, ventilation etc etc could be managed far better with 3 or 4 families sharing the cost for a full or partial week.

Before you do anything else make an appointment to speak to the teacher in charge of support in the school. Explain your concerns. Your child will require an Individual Learning Plan and as a parent you will have an input into the planning of your child’s education. Quite often recommendations are made in reports without understanding the range of support available in schools.

Rjd2 · 30-07-2020 06:20PM

chocoholic999 wrote: »

Visors would certainly be more comfortable than masks. Others have posted that they are not a effective as masks though but I’m not sure.

https://www.thelocal.ch/20200730/swiss-health-chiefs-warn-visors-no-substitute-for-face-masks

Sadly the Swiss health chiefs think they are not as effective as masks.

Blondini · 30-07-2020 06:21PM

Only 85 new cases today, open 'em up!

Loafing Oaf · 30-07-2020 06:22PM

Redordeadqwwer wrote: »

Sorry but we're we not all under the impression it is transmitted through the air?

Ultimately yes, but my understanding is aerosols are smaller than droplets and hang in the air longer.

Spanish Eyes · 30-07-2020 06:22PM

Just before I grab my dinner, I have to say that teachers in the main have been very pragmatic in all this. And fair dues, not much negativity coming across AFAIS just wariness which is understandable.

But protect yourselves, the DES don't seem to want to do it or make a decision. Wear a visor and just do it, the students/parents of/DES can say what they like, but it is your life.

Spanish Eyes · 30-07-2020 06:26PM

Rjd2 wrote: »

https://www.thelocal.ch/20200730/swiss-health-chiefs-warn-visors-no-substitute-for-face-masks

Sadly the Swiss health chiefs think they are not as effective as masks.

I don't know what veracity that has, but it is probably better than nothing.

We don't know much about the background to this either.

Adjusting our lives and expectations now is what is needed. I refuse to use the N Normal thing. Far from normal new or old, but it is what we have to do.

am_zarathustra · 30-07-2020 06:27PM

Rimmy wrote: »

Would rather everyone had a face shield. Masks just lead to necessary face touching.

This is a pretty approachable round up of a nice amount of the current research, good as there is case studies, epidemiological analysis, and simulations.

https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/417906/still-confused-about-masks-heres-science-behind-how-face-masks-prevent

This is a pretty thorough meta analysis of face mask usage. Gives a good statistical analysis of why 2m is preferable to 1m too. Masks are widely regarded now in the scientific community to be the best way of preventing transfer where distancing of 2m+is not possible. If the government was to say we should all wear shields then they could not say it was based on research as it ostensibly wouldn't be.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31142-9/fulltext

I would only be suggesting teachers could wear shields as it might be possible for them to stay at a 2m distance.

How will schools be able to go back in September?

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