How will schools be able to go back in September?

30-07-2020 09:59AM

caveat emptor wrote: »

Gotcha

Ridiculous

Blondini · 30-07-2020 10:02AM

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

I'm under no illusion what schools will look like a couple of weeks into September.

How do you know what schools look like these days? You're not qualified enough to be in one in a professional capacity.

Things have changed a lot since you did your Group Cert.

khalessi · 30-07-2020 10:03AM

Lillyfae wrote: »

What a rotten attitude.

Consideriing the stuff you have printed about teachers, this does not surprise me, the term exhibit A comes to mind but heyho.

donfers · 30-07-2020 10:05AM

khalessi wrote: »

I dont know if it will be a car crash but if it isnt is wil be because the teachers stopped it being one and then the public will say there was no risk and the disease is harmless like they did after the HCW got the hospitals ready and werent overrum and the trolls here will say teachers being alarmist for nothing. Not teachers thanks for protecting our kids and making the schools safe despite the **** advice and plans you were given to work with. Then they will give out about our holidays and be delighted with themselves, not bothering to notice the work that went into keeping little Jimmy or karen safe.

ridiculously self-important post

this is a pandemic, do your job and get on with it

there are risks of course, but everything is relative, there are huge risks associated with not opening

hundreds of thousands have lost their jobs and would give their right arm to be in the teachers' position

so spare me the hero complex bs and get on with your job

Thank the stars other key occupations facing similar or greater risks haven't been so craven

Boggles · 30-07-2020 10:09AM

donfers wrote: »

hundreds of thousands have lost their jobs and would give their right arm to be in the teachers' position

Put their health and the health of their families at risk and add to the reseeding of the virus in the community which will lead to further job losses?

I want the names of these 100s of 1000s of people.

Let me get a pencil.

Lillyfae · 30-07-2020 10:09AM

khalessi wrote: »

Consideriing the stuff you have printed about teachers, this does not surprise me, the term exhibit A comes to mind but heyho.

What, that they don't all have enough knowledge or skills to say whether or not a school should reopen? Or that they should be supported better by the DoE, BoM and principals? Or that they should stop paying for supplies out of their own pocket because it makes it impossible to come up with a tangible shortfall in resource budget?

Sorry Khalessi, but it's becoming increasingly apparent that you have a personal problem with me.

caveat emptor · 30-07-2020 10:12AM

Gotcha below means I understand what you mean. Not the meaning you are implying.

Up for another day of minimising a deadly pathogen with zero evidence?
Let me know and I can take the day off to refute your opinion with peer reviewed studies.
Do you do this professionally or just a hobby?
What do you get out of it?

I know people are sick of kids at home but they might want to hold off giving them permanent damage.

This is not about us.
This is about the safety of our children and teachers.
I'll be quite vocal about that until I see some change.

caveat emptor wrote: »

Gotcha.
Read a book instead of bull****ting.
Night

Sending kids into class during this is now effectively criminal negligence.
Science is clear and has been proven.
Hope someone has the tipex at the ready.

They'll need to change this bit quite and any of the legalities that go with it.

Deleted User wrote: »

Ridiculous

ldy4mxonucwsq6 · 30-07-2020 10:13AM

Blondini wrote: »

How do you know what schools look like these days? You're not qualified enough to be in one in a professional capacity.

Things have changed a lot since you did your Group Cert.

:pac:

How would you know what anyone is qualified to do in a professional capacity?

Don't assume to know the educational background of anyone, you have no idea and you're well off the mark too.

I will admit that I don't know what a group cert is

that's probably a generational thing though.

caveat emptor · 30-07-2020 10:16AM

donfers wrote: »

.......

Thank the stars other key occupations facing similar or greater risks haven't been so craven

Wow calling teachers cowards?!!!
Your some c u next Tuesday.

It's not the battle of somme. We have options.
You just don't understand them.

Did you not get on well in school.
Is that what this is about?
Do you think you could have been a teacher.

I personally wouldn't want to be one but fair fvcks to them.

They'll be the new nurses. We'll probably even give them a clap.

Alrigghtythen · 30-07-2020 10:23AM

Boggles wrote: »

Put their health and the health of their families at risk and add to the reseeding of the virus in the community which will lead to further job losses?

I want the names of these 100s of 1000s of people.

Let me get a pencil.

Take my name there. I haven't added to the reseeding of the virus. See daily figures.

Yes I put mine and my families health at risk to keep food on your table when we knew less about the virsus and you were hiding under your bed.

There would have been some whinging over empty shelves

Will Yam · 30-07-2020 10:25AM

Boggles wrote: »

Put their health and the health of their families at risk and add to the reseeding of the virus in the community which will lead to further job losses?

I want the names of these 100s of 1000s of people.

Let me get a pencil.

I spent a couple of days in a hotel recently. People checking in and out, coming & going, luggage being carried in and out, rooms being cleaned and bed linen being changed, drinks and meals being served, swimming pool being managed etc etc

Lots and lots of moving parts. Many changes made in how they went about their work.

Two things struck me - The first was the absence of any debate as to how difficult/awkward/challenging the whole thing was. They just got on with it. Did they get everything right - I doubt it. Were any of the staff at some risk - I would imagine they were. But risk is part of life.

The second was a young man working there - serving coffee etc. I asked him how they managed to get ready etc. His response was that yes, there were difficulties, and they had to overcome them. Otherwise he had no job.

I’m not saying a school is a hotel - each have their own individual features and challenges. But it seemed to me that there was a significant difference between the 2 sectors.

The hotel seemed to want to open and seemed to be preoccupied with finding solutions.

The education sector, by contrast seems to be preoccupied with finding problems.

coffeyt · 30-07-2020 10:27AM

God,it's gotten very twitchy in here in the last while.
My opinion (for all it counts!) is that unfortunately it's a crap situation all round.

I'm not a teacher but a parent to 2 young children due to go into senior infants and junior infants. Luckily it's a small school so numbers are low in their classroom, about 20 total in their class and the school prior to closure was very proactive about handwashing, no homework (so no books in and out of school) so I'm confident they will do all they can to make it as safe as possible.

However I'm also aware of many local schools that are severely overcrowded and I can't see them being able to have all their students back in a safe manner.

To me it seems that the government have basically put the onus on schools to sort it out so they will be the fall guys if anything goes wrong.
Some schools will be able to manage but some will not and to me that is not in anyway fair and cannot be blamed on the teachers if the building is not suitable.

Debatable · 30-07-2020 10:27AM

Interesting thread. I'll give my two cents for what its worth.

Waiters, bus drivers, shop workers Gardaí, private industry....and most importantly Creche staff are back working. None took a position that they couldn't go back due to safety reasons as a group.

There are concerns , and certain individuals may be more at risk but in general I cannot understand how the unions and staff are not chomping at the bit to get schools back open. Maybe they are and I'm misreading the situation but I get the feeling they are doing there best to keep schools shut. It carries risk to open, but risk applies to all the jobs mentioned above,its minimal. This is key, people are focusing on masks, and PPE and all sorts of "protective" equipment that in reality offer minimal protection at best if you understand the basics of airflow. In reality what should happen is a common sense approach, which is open up and do your best to follow guidelines. There really isn't any nirvana option, which the Unions know. I'm sure most teachers do too, they are smart people.

I do believe it's embarrassing we are where we are with the schools, we already failed leaving cert students and we are in the process of screwing around with childrens education more and I don't understand why. The public sector has been absolutely shielded in this pandemic. No job losses, no covid payments , no risk of losing out and all the while reducing services provided and lowering productivity. This is all funded by private sector workers tax. What I'm really getting at is if this were a fully private sector it would be open, look at the creches. At this stage there is a half decent plan, and the government should now take the position schools need to reopen in full. The choice should be put to people , as it is in the private sector to keep on in the career you chose, or if you believe its too risky now, then change career. That won't happen of course.I also don't see what can change to make schools open if the current guidelines don't work until there is a vaccine. This may never happen...I'll leave it on that happy note.

History Queen · 30-07-2020 10:30AM

This is a link to an article about the survey Barnardos carries out on attitudes towards schools reopening before the new guidelines were issued:

https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0729/1156360-barnardos-survey/

It'd be really interesting to see of the same survey questions were asked now that the guidelines have been published whether the fears identified in the survey have decreased or not. As a teacher I sometimes forget that my perception of a school and a parent's perception can be very different. I do wonder if the vast majority of parents are happy with the guidelines.

Boggles · 30-07-2020 10:30AM

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

Yes I put mine and my families health at risk to keep food on your table when we knew less about the virsus and you were hiding under your bed.

You brave soul, so did I, do I deserve a clap?

Will Yam wrote: »

I’m not saying a school is a hotel

The aren't but you are still trying to cram in the false equivalency.

wirelessdude01 · 30-07-2020 10:31AM

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

According to some posts here some teachers have already resigned.

.

Not resigned, retired. Very different.

Lillyfae · 30-07-2020 10:31AM

History Queen wrote: »

This is a link to an article about the survey Barnardos carries out on attitudes towards schools reopening before the new guidelines were issued:

https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0729/1156360-barnardos-survey/

It'd be really interesting to see of the same survey questions were asked now that the guidelines have been published whether the fears identified in the survey have decreased or not. As a teacher I sometimes forget that my perception of a school and a parent's perception can be very different. I do wonder if the vast majority of parents are happy with the guidelines.

I read the results of the survey but I really wish they'd published the whole thing

khalessi · 30-07-2020 10:33AM

Lillyfae wrote: »

What, that they don't all have enough knowledge or skills to say whether or not a school should reopen? Or that they should be supported better by the DoE, BoM and principals? Or that they should stop paying for supplies out of their own pocket because it makes it impossible to come up with a tangible shortfall in resource budget?

Sorry Khalessi, but it's becoming increasingly apparent that you have a personal problem with me.

Not at all, not personal at all, but I do have a problem with your posts about teachers which have been very negative especially the ones over the last few days. You post stuff which is insulting and think that is ok. So it is the attitude.

ldy4mxonucwsq6 · 30-07-2020 10:34AM

Will Yam wrote: »

I spent a couple of days in a hotel recently. People checking in and out, coming & going, luggage being carried in and out, rooms being cleaned and bed linen being changed, drinks and meals being served, swimming pool being managed etc etc

Lots and lots of moving parts. Many changes made in how they went about their work.

Two things struck me - The first was the absence of any debate as to how difficult/awkward/challenging the whole thing was. They just got on with it. Did they get everything right - I doubt it. Were any of the staff at some risk - I would imagine they were. But risk is part of life.

The second was a young man working there - serving coffee etc. I asked him how they managed to get ready etc. His response was that yes, there were difficulties, and they had to overcome them. Otherwise he had no job.

I’m not saying a school is a hotel - each have their own individual features and challenges. But it seemed to me that there was a significant difference between the 2 sectors.

The hotel seemed to want to open and seemed to be preoccupied with finding solutions.

The education sector, by contrast seems to be preoccupied with finding problems.

It's very simple really, and comes down to the age old private business v public sector debate.

If schools were private profitable businesses then they would probably have been open since May.

Those who depend on doing their job for their livelihood will quickly look for solutions and overcome obstacles.

They don't have the luxury of waiting for a bespoke plan and handholding measures while fully earning their usual salary.

The plan would never have been good enough even if each child was shrink wrapped in sterile cling film there would still be a problem found somewhere.

I have found though in real life teachers arent represented by those on the thread here. Many just want to go back to work regardless of the plan and its apparent flaws.

It's a pretty small portion that will do anything to avoid having to go back to work.

beggars_bush · 30-07-2020 10:34AM

Debatable wrote: »

Interesting thread. I'll give my two cents for what its worth.

Waiters, bus drivers, shop workers Gardaí, private industry....and most importantly Creche staff are back working. None took a position that they couldn't go back due to safety reasons as a group.

There are concerns , and certain individuals may be more at risk but in general I cannot understand how the unions and staff are not chomping at the bit to get schools back open. Maybe they are and I'm misreading the situation but I get the feeling they are doing there best to keep schools shut. It carries risk to open, but risk applies to all the jobs mentioned above,its minimal. This is key, people are focusing on masks, and PPE and all sorts of "protective" equipment that in reality offer minimal protection at best if you understand the basics of airflow. In reality what should happen is a common sense approach, which is open up and do your best to follow guidelines. There really isn't any nirvana option, which the Unions know. I'm sure most teachers do too, they are smart people.

I do believe it's embarrassing we are where we are with the schools, we already failed leaving cert students and we are in the process of screwing around with childrens education more and I don't understand why. The public sector has been absolutely shielded in this pandemic. No job losses, no covid payments , no risk of losing out and all the while reducing services provided and lowering productivity. This is all funded by private sector workers tax. What I'm really getting at is if this were a fully private sector it would be open, look at the creches. At this stage there is a half decent plan, and the government should now take the position schools need to reopen in full. The choice should be put to people , as it is in the private sector to keep on in the career you chose, or if you believe its too risky now, then change career. That won't happen of course.I also don't see what can change to make schools open if the current guidelines don't work until there is a vaccine. This may never happen...I'll leave it on that happy note.

Most of those jobs listed above deal with adults
And creches have much lower numbers than in schools, and are also privately run so the owners need to reopen.

Teachers generally like to follow plans and so the lack of clarity across a lot of the government's school reopening plans have caused anxiety and worry.

Eg, teachers do summer courses. Yet because everything has been released so late, there were no online courses offered about returning to school, cleaning and sanitizing procedures, well being and other ideas to help the children settle back in September

Why isn't the government buying hand sanitizer in bulk and delivering to schools? Imagine the discount!

Boggles · 30-07-2020 10:35AM

History Queen wrote: »

This is a link to an article about the survey Barnardos carries out on attitudes towards schools reopening before the new guidelines were issued:

https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0729/1156360-barnardos-survey/

It'd be really interesting to see of the same survey questions were asked now that the guidelines have been published whether the fears identified in the survey have decreased or not. As a teacher I sometimes forget that my perception of a school and a parent's perception can be very different. I do wonder if the vast majority of parents are happy with the guidelines.

The majority of parents are not simpletons, if they see a reseeding of the virus in the community and schools are a substantial contributing driver for this, they will yank kids out en masse.

It's exactly what I will be doing.

30-07-2020 10:35AM

caveat emptor wrote: »

Up for another day of minimising a deadly pathogen with zero evidence?
Let me know and I can take the day off to refute your opinion with peer reviewed studies.

As much as I have enjoyed refuting cheery picked studies that only pick on specific aspects and not the complete picture, unfortunately I am heading away with the family for a couple days this afternoon and won’t be on a huge amount at the weekend either I’d imagine. Might step in occasionally to address the most egregious misrepresentation of facts, but otherwise, see you next week

beggars_bush · 30-07-2020 10:36AM

Same for the sanitizing units needed for every classroom.
Face shields, cleaning supplies
Stickers for floors, signage
Buy centrally and distribute to schools

khalessi · 30-07-2020 10:40AM

Will Yam wrote: »

I spent a couple of days in a hotel recently. People checking in and out, coming & going, luggage being carried in and out, rooms being cleaned and bed linen being changed, drinks and meals being served, swimming pool being managed etc etc

Lots and lots of moving parts. Many changes made in how they went about their work.

Two things struck me - The first was the absence of any debate as to how difficult/awkward/challenging the whole thing was. They just got on with it. Did they get everything right - I doubt it. Were any of the staff at some risk - I would imagine they were. But risk is part of life.

The second was a young man working there - serving coffee etc. I asked him how they managed to get ready etc. His response was that yes, there were difficulties, and they had to overcome them. Otherwise he had no job.

I’m not saying a school is a hotel - each have their own individual features and challenges. But it seemed to me that there was a significant difference between the 2 sectors.

The hotel seemed to want to open and seemed to be preoccupied with finding solutions.

The education sector, by contrast seems to be preoccupied with finding problems.

Tell me, where you there before reopening when they were discussing the measures and worrying about how safe it was. No. I have nurse colleagues who were freaked and said so but the kept going as that is their job. I have friends who work in hotels who worry especially with foreign travellers arriving, but keep going and teachers will too, as it is our job.

And when school open they will work like a well oiled machine, the children will be welcomed back and lessons though possibly altered will continue, there will be an emphasis on mental health and wellbeing as that is what we do. We are looking forward to going back despite what people think. The guidelines are rubbish and we will work around them.

Will Yam · 30-07-2020 10:41AM

beggars_bush wrote: »

Most of those jobs listed above deal with adults
And creches have much lower numbers than in schools, and are also privately run so the owners need to reopen.

Teachers generally like to follow plans and so the lack of clarity across a lot of the government's school reopening plans have caused anxiety and worry.

Eg, teachers do summer courses. Yet because everything has been released so late, there were no online courses offered about returning to school, cleaning and sanitizing procedures, well being and other ideas to help the children settle back in September

Why isn't the government buying hand sanitizer in bulk and delivering to schools? Imagine the discount!

Many professions like to follow plans. But in the middle of an emergency sometimes plans have to be improvised around.

You have a point about the tardiness of the dept.

But take the pub sector - no guidelines have yet beeen issued for Monday week. But I’m aware of many pubs using their common sense and rearranging things now, and not sitting around whinging that they haven’t a clue what to do.

Alrigghtythen · 30-07-2020 10:41AM

Deleted User wrote: »

As much as I have enjoyed refuting cheery picked studies that only pick on specific aspects and not the complete picture, unfortunately I am heading away with the family for a couple days this afternoon and won’t be on a huge amount at the weekend either I’d imagine. Might step in occasionally to address the most egregious misrepresentation of facts, but otherwise, see you next week

Enjoy yourselves. It's great that there are people getting out and about while keeping safe. Did you need an online course to manage?

Lillyfae · 30-07-2020 10:41AM

khalessi wrote: »

Not at all, not personal at all, but I do have a problem with your posts about teachers which have been very negative especially the ones over the last few days. You post stuff which is insulting and think that is ok. So it is the attitude.

Opposing your views or disagreeing with a practice doesn't equate to an insult. Lucky you don't have to deal with me in a parental capacity, right? Unfortunately, there are parents and children who have no option but to deal with you as a teacher, and you have continually insulted and portrayed them negatively throughout this thread. Far more than I have "insulted" teachers- like they're some hive mind or something...

Boggles · 30-07-2020 10:42AM

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

Those who depend on doing their job for their livelihood will quickly look for solutions and overcome obstacles.

They don't have the luxury of waiting for a bespoke plan and handholding measures while fully earning their usual salary.

What business sector did not get a plan with particularly focus on health and safety?

Which of these plans as you alluded to earlier were heavily laden with these phrases?

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

I see "where possible" and "where practical" mentioned quite a bit in the plan so they've got that aspect covered.

As an example, restaurants.

Where in the guidelines did it say?

Where Possible maintain social distance?

Where Practical serve a substantial meal?

Where Possible stick to a time limit?

Where Practical limit the amount indoors?

Like clockwork, you can only hold it together for so long than the jealousy veil slips and boom.

True Colors.

You are a parody of yourself at this stage.

Will Yam · 30-07-2020 10:43AM

khalessi wrote: »

Tell me, where you there before reopening when they were discussing the measures and worrying about how safe it was. No. I have nurse colleagues who were freaked and said so but the kept going as that is their job. I have friends who work in hotels who worry especially with foreign travellers arriving, but keep going and teachers will too, as it is our job.

And when school open they will work like a well oiled machine, the children will be welcomed back and lessons though possibly altered will continue, there will be an emphasis on mental health and wellbeing as that is what we do. We are looking forward to going back despite what people think. The guidelines are rubbish and we will work around them.

I’m very glad to hear this, and let’s hope this is what happens.

But your attitude does seem to be little bit at odds with that of the teachers unions?

Boggles · 30-07-2020 10:46AM

Will Yam wrote: »

Many professions like to follow plans. But in the middle of an emergency sometimes plans have to be improvised around.

You have a point about the tardiness of the dept.

But take the pub sector - no guidelines have yet beeen issued for Monday week. But I’m aware of many pubs using their common sense and rearranging things now, and not sitting around whinging that they haven’t a clue what to do.

There is literally a publican on the news every night whinging about not having a clue what to do.

How will schools be able to go back in September?

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