How will schools be able to go back in September?

Alrigghtythen · 30-07-2020 12:32AM

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khalessi wrote: »

Do you not think that teachers have already seen these diagrams? And can you see anything wrong with the diagram with 32 pupils and the SNA? WHat are you trying to show with it?

Tell me whats wrong with it

khalessi · 30-07-2020 12:34AM

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

khalessi wrote: »

Tell me what wrong with it

No you quoted it to prove or show something. What is it you are trying to prove. I can see what is wrong with it straight away.

Alrigghtythen · 30-07-2020 12:39AM

khalessi wrote: »

No you quoted it to prove or show something. What is it you are trying to prove. I can see what is wrong with it straight away.

32 pupils, an sna and a work station fit in a 60m2 space. I said I my last post what it was.

So tell whats wrong with it for you?

khalessi · 30-07-2020 12:40AM

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

khalessi wrote: »

32 pupils, an sna and a work station fit in a 60m2 space. I said I my last post what it was.

So tell whats wrong with it for you?

I see you said that but what it? All teachers have seen it by this stage so why are you using it? Is it to show something if so what? You still havent said why you picked it

Alrigghtythen · 30-07-2020 12:41AM

khalessi wrote: »

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

I see you said that but what it? All teachers have seen it by this stage so why are you using it? Is it to show something if so what? You still havent said why you picked it

Of course teachers have seen it, the department issued it

I m not fixing the quotes anymore

Alrigghtythen · 30-07-2020 12:42AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Any communication from NPHET on why schools should not open? They did not reduce 2m requirement, so as to be more confident in keeping cases low in advance of School reopening.

As it stands 'we are absolutely on track' for children to go back to school in September, says NPHET
https://www.thejournal.ie/as-it-stands-we-are-absolutely-on-track-for-children-to-go-back-to-school-in-september-says-nphet-5158315-Jul2020/

khalessi · 30-07-2020 12:43AM

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

khalessi wrote: »

Of course teachers have seen it, the department issued it

I m not fixing the quotes anymore

You still didnt say why you quoted that picture apart from mentioning the dimesnions. HOw are they relevent?

Alrigghtythen · 30-07-2020 12:44AM

khalessi wrote: »

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

You still didnt say why you quoted that picture apart from mentioning the dimesnions. HOw are they relevent?

Lol, did you miss the posts that were discussing fitting pupils in to a room? So tell us what's wrong?

khalessi · 30-07-2020 12:47AM

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

khalessi wrote: »

Lol, did you miss the posts that were discussing fitting pupils in to a room?

Thank you, the reason it is an issue is social distancing is not practised properly in that diagram. If you were a teacher you would have spotted it. Therefore to use to show sd is wrong. The department got a few things wrong in those diagrams but it wasnt about getting it right it was about a pr exercise and optics

Alrigghtythen · 30-07-2020 12:54AM

khalessi wrote: »

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

Thank you, the reason it is an issue is social distancing is not practised properly in that diagram. If you were a teacher you would have spotted it. Therefore to use to show sd is wrong. The department got a few things wrong in those diagrams but it wasnt about getting it right it was about a pr exercise and optics

They are pods of 4 pupils with min 1m between pods. Teacher is further than 2 m if sitting at desk or in front of it. 2 .1m between wall and student. Teacher has another area there to be more than 2 m away from students.

Sounds like what the guidelines stated. What is it you find wrong?

khalessi · 30-07-2020 12:56AM

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

khalessi wrote: »

They are pods of 4 pupils with min 1m between pods. Teacher is further than 2 m if sitting at desk or in front of it. 2 .1m between wall and student. Teacher has another area there to be more than 2 m away from students.

Sounds like what the guidelines stated. What is it you find wrong?

Well it is a lovely picture but children already sit like that in class and it does not stop viruses spreading. More importantly the SNA is not afforded sd. But to an untrained eye it looks fine and that is what the DOE are hoping for.

Alrigghtythen · 30-07-2020 01:01AM

khalessi wrote: »

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

Well it is a lovely picture but children already sit like that in class and it does not stop viruses spreading. More importantly the SNA is not afforded sd. But to an untrained eye it looks fine and that is what the DOE are hoping for.

Well if they already sit like that then the class is already set up ok. Lol, just because you dont have to move your desks doesnt means it wrong? That's bizarre.

Sna can sit at the work station and work closer with the children for shorter periods

Untrained eye, some teachers are having trouble organising a class, other people have been managing covid in companies with a lot more people and they are in their 6th and 7th month of managing it. September will be the teachers first month.

thenetherrealm · 30-07-2020 01:13AM

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

khalessi wrote: »

Well if they already sit like that then the class is already set up ok. Lol, just because you dont have to move your desks doesnt means it wrong? That's bizarre.

Sna can sit at the work station and work closer with the children for shorter periods

Untrained eye, some teachers are having trouble organising a class, other people have been managing covid in companies with a lot more people and they are in their 6th and 7th month of managing it. September will be the teachers first month.

Show me one office that is operating with no face masks, no perspex dividers, and 33 people in a single, poor ventilated room that is less than 70m squared.

khalessi · 30-07-2020 01:14AM

thenetherrealm wrote: »

Show me one office that is operating with no face masks, no perspex dividers, and 33 people in a single, poor ventilated room that is less than 70m squared.

Nether I did not post that it was the other fella, but I agree with you

khalessi · 30-07-2020 01:23AM

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

Well if they already sit like that then the class is already set up ok. Lol, just because you dont have to move your desks doesnt means it wrong? That's bizarre.

Sna can sit at the work station and work closer with the children for shorter periods

Untrained eye, some teachers are having trouble organising a class, other people have been managing covid in companies with a lot more people.

Laugh all you want you did not know why the picture is unsuitable. If an SNA is sitting with a child they are there for long periods. The picture was fine pre covid but the SNAs I know are very upset about the fact they are not included in any plans and the only picture is them without sd and ppe not encouraged.

Teachers will work this out it is what we do, but you have spent the evening explaining how to teach hygiene to 6 year olds and quoting pictures from a document that the teachers on this thread have read. Did it not cross your mind we do that everyday? Don't let them touch each others faces. It was a bit of a patronising post. Listen go into a classroom and see what we do. You then pick a diagram that teacher has already seen no doubt and you cant see why it is incorrect.

Alrigghtythen · 30-07-2020 01:39AM

khalessi wrote: »

Laugh all you want you did not know why the picture is unsuitable. If an SNA is sitting with a child they are there for long periods. The picture was fine pre covid but the SNAs I know are very upset about the fact they are not included in any plans and the only picture is them without sd and ppe not encouraged.

Teachers will work this out it is what we do, but you have spent the evening explaining how to teach hygiene to 6 year olds and quoting pictures from a document that the teachers on this thread have read. Did it not cross your mind we do that everyday? Don't let them touch each others faces. It was a bit of a patronising post. Listen go into a classroom and see what we do. You then pick a diagram that teacher has already seen no doubt and you cant see why it is incorrect.

If the complaint was they touch each others faces, why wouldn't the solution be to stop them. That's not patronising, that common sense.

Look, we get some teachers are inflexible and have no interest in solutions

khalessi · 30-07-2020 02:19AM

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

If the complaint was they touch each others faces, why wouldn't the solution be to stop them. That's not patronising, that common sense.

Look, we get some teachers are inflexible and have no interest in solutions

So true, common sense that it should not need to be explained to a group of professionals who do that and more everyday, its like selling snow to eskimos. You obviously havent been in a classroom especially a junior infants or senior infants class as described by Hook or by Crook. You would not realise the amount and variety of stuff we teach and do that is not on the curriculum and how often we repeat it. Just because it was mentioned does not mean the teacher never thought to ask jimmy not to do it, he was simply replying to your list from the guidelines showing how impractical the list is.

Upto 3rd class corks are put in the boys toilets for them to aim at, otherwise they urinate all over the place. That is one of many issues dealt with along with face touching but we deal with that and discuss it and repeatedly remind them not to do along with a million other things, which have nothing to do with academics. Most teachers are very flexible as it is the nature of the job, you cannot work with children and not be flexible.

The basic fact is the plan has major flaws, seems like they had nothing then threw it together, they didn't consult with teachers, no teacher I know filled out a survey apart from the VFT survey last week. If they had have consulted sooner and worked on the plan a few months ago it could have been better. But no plan is perfect and we will find workarounds, there was a lot that should have been included but it should have definitely included masks for staff and optional for children. Some children were wearing them in March in school as they felt happier. It is a worry though that they think it is ok to play around with schools and not apply the same guidelines that have appeared in other sectors.

Alrigghtythen · 30-07-2020 08:57AM

khalessi wrote: »

So true, common sense that it should not need to be explained to a group of professionals who do that and more everyday, its like selling snow to eskimos. You obviously havent been in a classroom especially a junior infants or senior infants class as described by Hook or by Crook. You would not realise the amount and variety of stuff we teach and do that is not on the curriculum and how often we repeat it. Just because it was mentioned does not mean the teacher never thought to ask jimmy not to do it, he was simply replying to your list from the guidelines showing how impractical the list is.

Upto 3rd class corks are put in the boys toilets for them to aim at, otherwise they urinate all over the place. That is one of many issues dealt with along with face touching but we deal with that and discuss it and repeatedly remind them not to do along with a million other things, which have nothing to do with academics. Most teachers are very flexible as it is the nature of the job, you cannot work with children and not be flexible.

The basic fact is the plan has major flaws, seems like they had nothing then threw it together, they didn't consult with teachers, no teacher I know filled out a survey apart from the VFT survey last week. If they had have consulted sooner and worked on the plan a few months ago it could have been better. But no plan is perfect and we will find workarounds, there was a lot that should have been included but it should have definitely included masks for staff and optional for children. Some children were wearing them in March in school as they felt happier. It is a worry though that they think it is ok to play around with schools and not apply the same guidelines that have appeared in other sectors.

I wonder how thoroughly some have actually read the plan. Hookorbycrook missed the section on financial support for cleaning.

combat14 · 30-07-2020 09:09AM

when is the legislation on wearing face masks in shops to be published.. or has that been scrapped as it is no longer needed any more ...?

can teachers refuse to teach in a class room if it is not safe to do so .........

Boggles · 30-07-2020 09:16AM

combat14 wrote: »

can teachers refuse to teach in a class room if it is not safe to do so .........

It's up to the teachers employers I imagine to make sure the working environment adheres to health and safety guidelines. But it is incumbent on all employees to keep themselves safe, so I guess they could definitely refuse on those grounds.

But it's a pertinent question, will the relevant health authorities do mass inspections of schools to make sure they are compliant and if not what happens?

We are using an incredible amount of Gardaí resources making sure people in pubs have had their 9 euro chicken wings with those 6 pints.

I imagine schools will get the same level of attention and resources in enforcing health and safety.

Ah no, shure be grand!

ldy4mxonucwsq6 · 30-07-2020 09:26AM

combat14 wrote: »

can teachers refuse to teach in a class room if it is not safe to do so .........

According to some posts here some teachers have already resigned.

If the issued guidelines are being followed then there's no real grounds for a HSA complaint.

I'd imagine if teachers feel they aren't safe in their workplace but there's been no breach of guidelines then they face the same decisions as the rest of the non teaching workforce.

They can refuse to teach by resigning any time they want to, as some already have.

If the guidelines aren't being followed well then that's a whole other story and they have the same option as everyone else to make a complaint to the HSA.

Boggles · 30-07-2020 09:30AM

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

If the guidelines aren't being followed well then that's a whole other story and they have the same option as everyone else to make a complaint to the HSA.

And if the guidelines can't be followed?

ldy4mxonucwsq6 · 30-07-2020 09:32AM

Boggles wrote: »

And if the guidelines can't be followed?

I see "where possible" and "where practical" mentioned quite a bit in the plan so they've got that aspect covered.

Boggles · 30-07-2020 09:34AM

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

I see "where possible" mentioned quite a bit in the plan so they've got that aspect covered.

Now you are getting it.

downthemiddle · 30-07-2020 09:35AM

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

If the complaint was they touch each others faces, why wouldn't the solution be to stop them. That's not patronising, that common sense.

Look, we get some teachers are inflexible and have no interest in solutions

A typical Junior Infant class of thirty would include children who have delayed language who would struggle to follow instructions. The likelihood is that there will also be some with EAL. There may even be a crossover between the two. There will be a number of children with additional needs some diagnosed others still waiting for the system to catch up. Some will be able to tie their shoes and coats, the majority won’t. There will, in all probability be a child with a toileting issue. There will be a number of behaviour issues. There will be parental denial.
It is easy to make sweeping generalisations when you don’t understand the complexity of situations. Teachers deal with these situations on a daily basis.
The issue with this “plan” is that it doesn’t reflect best practice in other countries. At the height of school closures globally 90% of schools were closed. One third of schools, despite what you might read on this thread, have returned. We had an opportunity to learn from countries like Uruguay and Japan. Instead we are going to return on a wing and a prayer.

downthemiddle · 30-07-2020 09:38AM

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

I see "where possible" and "where practical" mentioned quite a bit in the plan so they've got that aspect covered.

Can you suggest what might go wrong when it’s not practical or possible?

caveat emptor · 30-07-2020 09:42AM

Boggles wrote: »

And if the guidelines can't be followed?

I find it best to not feed the trolls.
Some of us have tried to forewarn on various things that WILL go wrong. Not maybe. In all likelihood this will be a car crash.

So I'll take my own advice.
I might pop back in to give comment on how the teachers unions do in the oireachtas committee they'll surely be invited to like the nurses.

There is a difference this time though. The science has been proven beyond reasonable doubt that it is spreads via airborne transmission.

Not taking that into account and expecting people and children to risk their lives will be more costly with the various legal suits coming down the tracks.

Best of luck everyone.
Stay safe.

ldy4mxonucwsq6 · 30-07-2020 09:45AM

downthemiddle wrote: »

Can you suggest what might go wrong when it’s not practical or possible?

In relation to teachers refusing to work in a class that they deem is unsafe, there are going to be very limited options.

They have laid down the requirements for return to school, it's got lots of ambiguous language so it would be very difficult for someone to say the guidelines weren't being followed or that there was a breach (therefore leading to a complaint).

I'm under no illusion what schools will look like a couple of weeks into September.

khalessi · 30-07-2020 09:46AM

caveat emptor wrote: »

I find it best to not feed the trolls.
Some of us have tried to forewarn on various things that WILL go wrong. Not maybe. In all likelihood this will be a car crash.

So I'll take my own advice.
I might pop back in to give comment on how the teachers unions do in the oireachtas committee they'll surely be invited to like the nurses.

There is a difference this time though. The science has been proven beyond reasonable doubt that it is spreads via airborne transmission.

Not taking that into account and expecting people and children to risk their lives will be more costly with the various legal suits coming down the tracks.

Best of luck everyone.
Stay safe.

I dont know if it will be a car crash but if it isnt is wil be because the teachers stopped it being one and then the public will say there was no risk and the disease is harmless like they did after the HCW got the hospitals ready and werent overrum and the trolls here will say teachers being alarmist for nothing. Not teachers thanks for protecting our kids and making the schools safe despite the **** advice and plans you were given to work with. Then they will give out about our holidays and be delighted with themselves, not bothering to notice the work that went into keeping little Jimmy or karen safe.

Lillyfae · 30-07-2020 09:59AM

khalessi wrote: »

not bothering to notice the work that went into keeping little Jimmy or karen safe.

What a rotten attitude.

How will schools be able to go back in September?

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