How will schools be able to go back in September?

Smacruairi · 29-07-2020 11:15PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Infections will rise, some schools will close, but I would guess it will be more likely due to cases coming in rather than coming from the schools, but we have put ourselves a min a position where we can have a level of control, and we have to use it to get the systems right to deal with this on an ongoing basis, as we can’t depend on a vaccine, even though I am positive about that.

I don’t believe that government are doing enough, but the guidelines are realistic and will prevent spread, maybe not enough, but I am realistic enough to know that in the absence of isolating the country from the rest of the world completely, There will be cases . Each school and each community has a part to play in making the control in schools as strong as it can be within the constraints that are with. On considering what the teachers are saying... I do, but here is the thing, there is a lot of fear in excess of the actual risk. Any mitigation is a benefit. Those with conditions should be supported and we should continuously seek to challenge to achieve better work environments. Ultimately though if the cases rise significantly, it’s a societal failure, not just a school issue

That's fine. So it's a societal issue if we have issues similar to the nursing home debacle. You didn't clarify whether you would then reflect and have a "mea culpa" moment and join us on the barricades in future, but I think that's optimistic to get a simple retort. I appreciate you answering, in a very long way, my direct question, genuinely. Rare to have an answer to a question that doesn't get dragged into whataboutery, so thank you.

Just for my own records of the 2 direct questions I've asked and had answered, the answers have been :

Those with additional needs will have to be sacrificed for medium term gains, if infections rise massively it is society's fault, not schools.

caveat emptor · 29-07-2020 11:20PM

Smacruairi wrote: »

That's fine. So it's a societal issue if we have issues similar to the nursing home debacle. You didn't clarify whether you would then reflect and have a "mea culpa" moment and join us on the barricades in future, but I think that's optimistic to get a simple retort. I appreciate you answering, in a very long way, my direct question, genuinely. Rare to have an answer to a question that doesn't get dragged into whataboutery, so thank you.

Just for my own records of the 2 direct questions I've asked and had answered, the answers have been :

Those with additional needs will have to be sacrificed for medium term gains, if infections rise massively it is society's fault, not schools.

That genuinely scared me.
A least the nurses got to testify in front of an Oireachtas COVID committee.
It was probably their fault for not filling out the risk assessment correctly.

Night.

https://twitter.com/INMO_IRL/status/1285528864312238080?s=20

glack · 29-07-2020 11:22PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Are you primary or secondary?

Senior end of primary so trying to make 1m social distancing between students and 2m between me and the students.

byhookorbycrook · 29-07-2020 11:29PM

Deleted User wrote: »

How many of these teachers have actually gone in to the schools and measured the classrooms and attempted to see how many desks can fit in with all the extra furniture removed? Or how many are just saying, room 10 is very small, no way we can fit first year English in there. And masks are also recommended when as a last resort and 1m is not possible

We have measured the various classrooms in ours . No classroom has “ extra furniture.”In primary , you would have Aistear materials , shelves for books , the class library and a teacher’s desk. Aistear is not optional. The teacher’s desk and shelves for books are both essential. The library shelf might be removable , but is tiny in any case . The extra tables needed for the children would more than take up the library space . Most rooms don’t have built in storage , so what happens with essentials like maths manipulatives, materials for science , SPHE, art etc. ?
There are no storage spaces in most schools either.

caveat emptor · 29-07-2020 11:32PM

The science has just been fvcking proven.
Cope the fvck on.

1) It's official: research that found infectious SARS-CoV-2 in air samples has been peer-reviewed:
"significant environmental contamination in rooms where patients infected with SARS-CoV-2 are housed and cared for, regardless of the degree of symptoms"

https://twitter.com/AliNouriPhD/status/1288534942276780032?s=20

byhookorbycrook · 29-07-2020 11:37PM

YellowBucket wrote: »

It’s not as if this is extremely unlikely. There’s a fairly significant possibility of a second wave. The health system is prepping for one. Education should be.

The DES told 10 weeks to issue “ guidelines “ on remote teaching , quite a lot of which outlined how a fictional school with excellent broadband, hardware and students who enjoyed the same would respond.
They have had from March until now to establish a countywide standard platform but nothing .

29-07-2020 11:39PM

Smacruairi wrote: »

That's fine. So it's a societal issue if we have issues similar to the nursing home debacle. You didn't clarify whether you would then reflect and have a "mea culpa" moment and join us on the barricades in future, but I think that's optimistic to get a simple retort. I appreciate you answering, in a very long way, my direct question, genuinely. Rare to have an answer to a question that doesn't get dragged into whataboutery, so thank you.

Just for my own records of the 2 direct questions I've asked and had answered, the answers have been :

Those with additional needs will have to be sacrificed for medium term gains, if infections rise massively it is society's fault, not schools.

Sacrificed is not the right word. Compromises will be required, and we should always endeavour to minimise.
And if infections rise significantly, schools will be the victims of that, not the cause.

No one has yet to answer my question as to why no expert in the field of public health or epidemiology, of whom there are many willing to go on record, have as yet to express concerns with us reopening schools?

29-07-2020 11:41PM

caveat emptor wrote: »

That genuinely scared me.
A least the nurses got to testify in front of an Oireachtas COVID committee.
It was probably their fault for not filling out the risk assessment correctly.

Night.

https://twitter.com/INMO_IRL/status/1285528864312238080?s=20

Do we think the virus spontaneously erupts in children?

Or course a hospital treating multiple COVID patients is a hazardous environment. How it relates to schools....****ed if I know

byhookorbycrook · 29-07-2020 11:42PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Sacrificed is not the right word. Compromises will be required, and we should always endeavour to minimise.
And if infections rise significantly, schools will be the victims of that, not the cause.

No one has yet to answer my question as to why no expert in the field of public health or epidemiology, of whom there are many willing to go on record, have as yet to express concerns with us reopening schools?

NPHET has said social distancing of 2m , masks and less than 2 hours in an enclosed space are required for safety . The DES has chosen to ignore this .

the corpo · 29-07-2020 11:42PM

Deleted User wrote: »

No one has yet to answer my question as to why no expert in the field of public health or epidemiology, of whom there are many willing to go on record, have as yet to express concerns with us reopening schools?

I did, and agreed it was really concerning that they haven't yet, and I'm really hoping that it's not a sign that they're really behind the curve again, as they were with masks.

29-07-2020 11:43PM

caveat emptor wrote: »

The science has just been fvcking proven.
Cope the fvck on.

https://twitter.com/AliNouriPhD/status/1288534942276780032?s=20

Very sick peoples spread virus particles to room in which they are treated. What a shock. Whereas in the real world, outside of the hospital environment, those who are tasked with controlling the spread go after the source of the vast majority of infections, close contact and poor sanitation practices

29-07-2020 11:46PM

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

NPHET has said social distancing of 2m , masks and less than 2 hours in an enclosed space are required for safety . The DES has chosen to ignore this .

Any communication from NPHET on why schools should not open? They did not reduce 2m requirement, so as to be more confident in keeping cases low in advance of School reopening.

29-07-2020 11:48PM

glack wrote: »

Senior end of primary so trying to make 1m social distancing between students and 2m between me and the students.

Are there any other options within the school? My local primary has a hall where they could accommodate 2 classes of c. 28 students

glack · 29-07-2020 11:50PM

We do have a hall/GP room - it’s extremely small. There are 8 classes who cannot fit all of their students. Who moves to the hall?

Alrigghtythen · 29-07-2020 11:50PM

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Regular and good cough hygiene, hand hygiene . Have you ever been in a class of 30 6 year olds ? By the time you manage to get 30 of them to wash their hands at the sink ( presuming the class HAS a sink ) the 1st ten- at least have touched their faces/ each other / various surfaces and would need to start again.

Physical distancing isn’t needed for them, according to the DES , contrary to all health advice. Within most schools , corridors don’t allow for any form of distancing either .

Enhanced cleaning regimes ? School has to buy the supplies and €10 a child won’t pay too many cleaners .

“ Spacing and moving desks ?” Most Irish classrooms don’t have enough space for 1 m distancing . Even if they did , what happens when x needs to get to the bathroom, IWB, door , dispose of a tissue or can’t open their drink ?

“ Common touch items for enhanced cleaning “ Children’s faces ? The pencils they will insist on showing their friends ? Their tables and chairs - how often per day , by who , when and what ?

Staggered break times? When do the teacher and SNA get to have their break ?

Isolation areas- yes , in all those spare classrooms schools have , supervised by all the spare teachers that are kept in a press .

Your post is incredibly uninformed as to how schools actually work , day to day . There aren’t the resources in a primary school to do this . Secondary schools have Lbeen allocated some extra staff , primary haven’t .

Hand sanitizer

Theres as much health advice not recommending physical distancing for year olds.

The extra money will get a nice few extra hours cleaning

Primary schools supplemental COVID-19 Grant for
cleaning costs
Pupil Enrolment Mainstream
Up to 60 €3,780
100 €6,300
200 €12,600
400 €25,200
600 €37,800

What size is your classroom? How many pupils. Theres a few diagrams issued of what they suggest. If they want to go to the toilet, they go if they need help opening the bottle, you can teach them to hand it at arms length and receive it at arms length.

Stop the children from touching each others faces. They can show the pencils to thier friends but they'll have to learn look dont touch as much as possible.

The chairs and tables if they are exclusively sitting at them, then the cleaner can spray it once a day with a sanitizer vaporiser.

Why do you need a spare classroom for an isolation area? It can be any room, even the principled office. As long as everyone knows the procedure is if sign x is on the door, do not enter and the place is sanitised after.

I think a lot if this is looking for problems and missing the easy solutions, it could be related to being anxious about the situation.

The table below provides an illustrative example of the value of the minor works grant for
primary schools of various sizes.
School Size Current Minor Works
Grant
Enhanced COVID -19
element
Total Minor Works
Grant
60 €6,610 €6,610 €13,220
100 €7,350 €7,350 €14,700
200 €9,200 €9,200 €18,400
300 €11,050 €11,050 €22,100
400 €12,900 €12,900 €25,800
500 €14,750 €14,750 €29,500
Calculations in this table based on number of mainstream pupils only;
Employing an aide to help with school reopening logistics
Funding will be provided to primary schools to employ an aide to assist with the physical
and logistical arrangements necessary for school re-opening including movement of
furniture, setting up hand sanitising stations, signage, training, engaging with parents and
Funding will be provided to each primary school on a sliding scale to facilitate this work.
The level of funding is based on the size of the schools and is set out in the following
table:
From Enrolment
Range No. of Days
<300 2
301 -600 5
>600 10

In companies, they have been going to the toilet etc for months. As long as cleaning precautions are in place, its not a big drama.

caveat emptor · 29-07-2020 11:50PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Very sick peoples spread virus particles to room in which they are treated. What a shock. Whereas in the real world, outside of the hospital environment, those who are tasked with controlling the spread go after the source of the vast majority of infections, close contact and poor sanitation practices

woah there cowboy.
Lets not mix up what's what.

Airborne transmissible virus is viable and infectious 100%.
No more bull**** about big drop small drop.

The peer reviewed paper has just been approved?
Do you know what that means?
Do you get the concept?
I should be a fvcking teacher at this rate.

Fvck your dangerous whataboutery.
Picked a bad day to bull****.

The situation has changed. Human history and common knowledge has changed. Literally in the past 4 hours!

Thats awkward. Bad day to bull****.
The plan must change or the wilfully endangering children and teachers.
(as opposed to the nurses and doctors where there was no PEER REVIEWED science)

downthemiddle · 29-07-2020 11:51PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Sacrificed is not the right word. Compromises will be required, and we should always endeavour to minimise.
And if infections rise significantly, schools will be the victims of that, not the cause.

No one has yet to answer my question as to why no expert in the field of public health or epidemiology, of whom there are many willing to go on record, have as yet to express concerns with us reopening schools?

Targeting the most vulnerable is not a compromise. It is a choice.

glack · 29-07-2020 11:53PM

glack wrote: »

We do have a hall/GP room - it’s extremely small. There are 8 classes who cannot fit all of their students. Who moves to the hall?

Just to clarify- one full class is all that would fit in our hall. You could probably fit around 45 or so students. We haven’t physically tried to yet - but we will. Also poses other challenges - it’s basically a hallway that children have to walk through to access their classrooms.

Smacruairi · 29-07-2020 11:53PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Sacrificed is not the right word. Compromises will be required, and we should always endeavour to minimise.
And if infections rise significantly, schools will be the victims of that, not the cause.

No one has yet to answer my question as to why no expert in the field of public health or epidemiology, of whom there are many willing to go on record, have as yet to express concerns with us reopening schools?

We told you that they can't be accommodated. We needed more space and resources, and the govt says there is none, make it work. Please don't back track on your original answer.there is no compromise. It's now exclusion of additional needs owing to substitution and other matter. Please be consistent.

downthemiddle · 29-07-2020 11:53PM

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

In companies, they have been going to the toilet etc for months. As long as cleaning precautions are in place, its not a big drama.

Are there many in these companies who aren't properly toilet trained?

29-07-2020 11:54PM

glack wrote: »

We do have a hall/GP room - it’s extremely small. There are 8 classes who cannot fit all of their students. Who moves to the hall?

5th /6th I would presume given under 10’s are relatively low risk

khalessi · 29-07-2020 11:57PM

Deleted User wrote: »

No one has yet to answer my question as to why no expert in the field of public health or epidemiology, of whom there are many willing to go on record, have as yet to express concerns with us reopening schools?

Well Prof. Sam McConkey commenting on the radio today about young people

On rising infections in younger people, he said: "This is again very similar to what we had in February and March before we'd large numbers of elderly people getting it who sadly passed away from it.

"This is the sort of grumbling of a virus among young healthy people, who are often minimally symptomatic, which the risk is that then inevitably they meet with their parents and grandparents and older people - and then in two or four weeks time, it all goes wild in older people. Just imagine what he will be like when schools open.

"The young people are unlikely to die from it, as we know, but they're likely to spread it around.

"So it's a matter really of our whole population keeping together, keeping on message, keeping social distancing, masks and so on".

https://www.newstalk.com/news/last-bit-hardest-sam-mcconkey-next-steps-coronavirus-fight-1053234

Now I know it is young people and not schools but young people attend schools and everyone on here keeps going on about how they are mixing outside of school. And if they are worrying about this now it will move when schools open.

29-07-2020 11:57PM

caveat emptor wrote: »

woah there cowboy.
Lets not mix up what's what.

Airborne transmissible virus is viable and infectious 100%.
No more bull**** about big drop small drop.

The peer reviewed paper has just been approved?
Do you know what that means?
Do you get the concept?
I should be a fvcking teacher at this rate.

Fvck your dangerous whataboutery.
Picked a bad day to bull****.

The situation has changed. Human history and common knowledge has changed. Literally in the past 4 hours!

Thats awkward. Bad day to bull****.
The plan must change or the wilfully endangering children and teachers.
(as opposed to the nurses and doctors where there was no PEER REVIEWED science)

Sweet Jesus. All transmissions are airborne then are they? No one already succeeded in suppressing the virus?

glack · 30-07-2020 12:00AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

5th /6th I would presume given under 10’s are relatively low risk

We have 6 fifth/sixth classes, 4 of which don’t fit. One full class is all that will fit in our hall (definitely not room for 60+). So it will solve the issue of one classroom but not the others. And we lose the hall for other activities. Never mind the fact that it has no interactive whiteboard or internet. Will be a push to get these sorted.

It’s all just a major headache and no solution as yet as to what we do if the children just don’t fit.

caveat emptor · 30-07-2020 12:01AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Sweet Jesus. All transmissions are airborne then are they? No one already succeeded in suppressing the virus?

God loves a trier. Night now. Here's an image that was a bit of a give away for me.

https://twitter.com/FriesFreedom/status/1288542648869859329?s=20

khalessi · 30-07-2020 12:01AM

Deleted User wrote: »

5th /6th I would presume given under 10’s are relatively low risk

4th 5th 6th not under 10 but hey not to worry

30-07-2020 12:04AM

caveat emptor wrote: »

God loves a trier. Night now. Here's an image that was a bit of a give away for me.

https://twitter.com/FriesFreedom/status/1288542648869859329?s=20

A little word there that is very important “can”. I can be infected from a spoon someone touched 24 hours ago. Doesn’t mean we eliminate all spoons. If we go after every potential vector of transmission we get nowhere. That’s why everywhere has concentrated on the key vectors.

caveat emptor · 30-07-2020 12:17AM

Deleted User wrote: »

A little word there that is very important “can”. I can be infected from a spoon someone touched 24 hours ago. Doesn’t mean we eliminate all spoons. If we go after every potential vector of transmission we get nowhere. That’s why everywhere has concentrated on the key vectors.

Gotcha.
Read a book instead of bull****ting.
Night

Sending kids into class during this is now effectively criminal negligence.
Science is clear and has been proven.
Hope someone has the tipex at the ready.

They'll need to change this bit quite and any of the legalities that go with it.

Remember that the virus is spread by droplets and is not airborne so physical separation is enough to reduce the risk of spread to others even if they are in the

Alrigghtythen · 30-07-2020 12:25AM

glack wrote: »

We have 6 fifth/sixth classes, 4 of which don’t fit. One full class is all that will fit in our hall (definitely not room for 60+). So it will solve the issue of one classroom but not the others. And we lose the hall for other activities. Never mind the fact that it has no interactive whiteboard or internet. Will be a push to get these sorted.

It’s all just a major headache and no solution as yet as to what we do if the children just don’t fit.

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/a0bff-reopening-our-primary-and-special-schools/#additional-guidelines-and-procedures

32 pupils, sna and a work station a 60m room. How big is the hall?

khalessi · 30-07-2020 12:31AM

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/a0bff-reopening-our-primary-and-special-schools/#additional-guidelines-and-procedures

Do you not think that teachers have already seen these diagrams? And can you see anything wrong with the diagram with 32 pupils and the SNA? WHat are you trying to show with it?

How will schools be able to go back in September?

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