How will schools be able to go back in September?

29-07-2020 07:35PM

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Was in West Cork yesterday chatting to a teacher . There is no doubt that individual schools have individual issues and need to have different protected in place
They will have very little problems with distancing for example but problems with bus transport
Our local school in Dublin wont have transport issues but definitely issues with start times . The whole estate walks to school on packed footpaths so staggering starts will be their issue

Walking to school outdoors is very low risk.

iamwhoiam · 29-07-2020 07:41PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Walking to school outdoors is very low risk.

Yeh i know .They all arrive on one corridor to their classes at the same time . But it can be easily sorted by a five minute delay on start time

Alrigghtythen · 29-07-2020 08:16PM

caveat emptor wrote: »

I found the HSE health and safety assessment guidelines. Pity kids and teachers not afforded the same courtesy. Every hse manager has to conduct this. They could be sued if not done correctly.

https://www.hse.ie/eng/staff/safetywellbeing/healthsafetyand%20wellbeing/guidelineoncompletionofoshriskassessments.pdf

5.0 Guidance
5.1 Legal basis for Risk Assessment
Section 19, of the Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Act, 2005 requires every employer (and those
who control workplaces to any extent) to identify the hazards at the place of work and to assess the
risk presented by those hazards.
It is also the responsibility of all staff to be aware of hazards and risks in the workplace and take
immediate action to report, reduce or resolve any hazards they observe in everyday practice.
5.2 Consultative Process
Section 26, of the Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Act, 2005 places a duty on the employer to
consult and engage with his or her employees on all matters relating to safety health and welfare
(including risk assessments).

It is widely acknowledged that risk assessments are best conducted by those who have a good
knowledge and understanding of the organisation, work practices and processes (HSG65, 2013;
OHSAS 18001).
A team approach to risk assessment should be adopted, with the involvement of employees who
have practical experience of the particular process or activity being considered in the risk
assessment. These employees will often have the best knowledge and understanding of the
hazards. (HSE, 2003).

The dept sent out a template for each school to conduct a risk assessment. See point 4 on link

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/744f4-appendices-checklists-and-policies-that-schools-must-follow-covid-19-response-plan-for-safe-reopening-of-schools/#risk-assessment

They also have the road map in line with public health advice
Which bit do you think breaches the legislation?

ldy4mxonucwsq6 · 29-07-2020 08:19PM

xhomelezz wrote: »

Frontline worker by now has access to all PPE gear he needs, at least I hope he does.

Or she of course

They also had to work in the midst of the lockdown when all non essential businesses were closed and we had several hundred cases a day.

Healthcare workers deal directly with known covid patients, comparing teachers to frontline healthcare workers is unrealistic.

Completely different risks involved.

caveat emptor · 29-07-2020 08:22PM

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

5.0 Guidance
5.1 Legal basis for Risk Assessment
Section 19, of the Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Act, 2005 requires every employer (and those
who control workplaces to any extent) to identify the hazards at the place of work and to assess the
risk presented by those hazards.
It is also the responsibility of all staff to be aware of hazards and risks in the workplace and take
immediate action to report, reduce or resolve any hazards they observe in everyday practice.
5.2 Consultative Process
Section 26, of the Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Act, 2005 places a duty on the employer to
consult and engage with his or her employees on all matters relating to safety health and welfare
(including risk assessments).

It is widely acknowledged that risk assessments are best conducted by those who have a good
knowledge and understanding of the organisation, work practices and processes (HSG65, 2013;
OHSAS 18001).
A team approach to risk assessment should be adopted, with the involvement of employees who
have practical experience of the particular process or activity being considered in the risk
assessment. These employees will often have the best knowledge and understanding of the
hazards. (HSE, 2003).

The dept sent out a template for each school to conduct a risk assessment. See point 4 on link

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/744f4-appendices-checklists-and-policies-that-schools-must-follow-covid-19-response-plan-for-safe-reopening-of-schools/#risk-assessment

They also have the road map in line with public health advice
Which bit do you think breaches the legislation?

This is a novel deadly biosafety level 4 pathogen. Is it a case of share the blame legally?

I've highlighted the relevant part of your post.

Nobody is familiar with this once in a hundred year pandemic. (with exception of some experts)

You can't expect a teacher to come up with ideas to mitigate risk to an airborne pathogen when they've never experienced one and when the "plan" refuses to acknowledge that it is airborne.

caveat emptor · 29-07-2020 08:32PM

So health care workers might be classified as having best knowledge and understanding the hazards. Here's how they got on........

look at the cases since last week. 44!
They have PPE and full knowledge of the dangers.
Given the low number of people in hospital currently that's a pretty scary number.
How could your average teacher with limited resources be expected to asses the risk?

When highly trained doctors and nurse and other staff (non frontline) have been given all of the training and the equipment necessary to mitigate the risk,
Are still being exposed?

ldy4mxonucwsq6 · 29-07-2020 08:33PM

caveat emptor wrote: »

You can't expect a teacher to come up with ideas to mitigate risk to an airborne pathogen when they've never experienced one and when the "plan" refuses to acknowledge that it is airborne.

Experts have said that based on the available evidence, the virus is transmitted between people through close contact and droplets, not by airborne transmission.

Airborne transmission is different from droplet transmission.

Do you expect the DOE to reclassify the virus to suit teachers?

ldy4mxonucwsq6 · 29-07-2020 08:35PM

caveat emptor wrote: »

So health care workers might be classified as having best knowledge and understanding the hazards. Here's how they got on........

look at the cases since last week. 44!
They have PPE and full knowledge of the dangers.
Given the low number of people in hospital currently that's a pretty scary number.
How could your average teacher with limited resources be expected to asses the risk?

When highly trained doctors and nurse and other staff (non frontline) have been given all of the training and the equipment necessary to mitigate the risk,
Are still being exposed?

Maybe its because the risk is much higher for them

Alrigghtythen · 29-07-2020 08:35PM

caveat emptor wrote: »

This is a novel deadly biosafety level 4 pathogen. Is it a case of share the blame legally?

I've highlighted the relevant part of your post.

Nobody is familiar with this once in a hundred year pandemic. (with exception of some experts)

You can't expect a teacher to come up with ideas to mitigate risk to an airborne pathogen when they've never experienced one and when the "plan" refuses to acknowledge that it is airborne.

They've given the answers in road map.

• Regular and good hand hygiene;
• Good respiratory hygiene and cough etiquette;
• Enhanced cleaning regimes; and
• Maintaining physical distancing in the classroom and within schools;

Teachers role is to identify where these occur in the class room and take steps to reduce the risk. Are they not capable of assessing thier classrooms for

A) placement of sanitizer
B)Spacing & Moving desks to maximise distance
C) Encouraging hygiene through routines
D) identify common touch items for enhanced cleaning
E) with thier colleagues identifying isolation area and a strategy deal with a suspected case
F) work with thier colleagues to establish staggered break times

?

caveat emptor · 29-07-2020 08:36PM

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

Experts have said that based on the available evidence, the virus is transmitted between people through close contact and droplets, not by airborne transmission.

Airborne transmission is different from droplet transmission.

Do you expect the DOE to reclassify the virus to suit teachers?

Source?
I mean I trust your opinion given that you want your kids back to school.
I do too.
You might want to reference said experts.
We can all spell experts.

ldy4mxonucwsq6 · 29-07-2020 08:37PM

caveat emptor wrote: »

Source?
I mean I trust your opinion given that you want your kids back to school.
I do too.
You might want to reference said experts.
We can all spell experts.

WHO, there is still differing views on it but DOE can only really plan in line with current health guidelines.

caveat emptor · 29-07-2020 08:40PM

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

Maybe its because the risk is much higher for them

For sure that is true. With community spread schools are silent multipliers with this disease (that's why they were closed).

Hospitals and health care workers weren't able to mitigate the very known real risk so I doubt teachers could effectively.

Not all HCW are frontline either. Checkout the table. I'm sure they were all on the covid ward (sarcasm)

If I was a teacher over 50 (as most people over 50 have some form of comorbitiy) I'd consider my position immediately.

caveat emptor · 29-07-2020 08:44PM

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

WHO, there is still differing views on it but DOE can only really plan in line with current health guidelines.

This sounds strangely familiar to the masks advice and care homes. We know what happened there. The advice was updated (a bit late for some unfortunately).

I mean it's a defence.
I don't know how good of a defence it would be in court.

the corpo · 29-07-2020 08:49PM

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

Experts have said that based on the available evidence, the virus is transmitted between people through close contact and droplets, not by airborne transmission.

Airborne transmission is different from droplet transmission.

Do you expect the DOE to reclassify the virus to suit teachers?

The experts are all lining up behind the evidence that airborne transmission is a real and present danger, and the WHO - always slow to move - have agreed the evidence cannot be discounted.

The Coronavirus Can Be Airborne Indoors, W.H.O. Says

The agency also explained more directly that people without symptoms may spread the virus. The acknowledgments should have come sooner, some experts said.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/09/health/virus-aerosols-who.html

Microscopic respiratory droplets generated by talking and breathing can hover in the air for minutes or hours and drift many metres horizontally before infecting people, argue 239 experts from 32 countries, in a commentary published in Clinical Infectious Diseases

https://www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m2720

xhomelezz · 29-07-2020 08:50PM

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

Or she of course

They also had to work in the midst of the lockdown when all non essential businesses were closed and we had several hundred cases a day.

Healthcare workers deal directly with known covid patients, comparing teachers to frontline healthcare workers is unrealistic.

Completely different risks involved.

I'm not thick to understand all that, was answering to that cherry picker, you forgot to quote few of his posts as well, how convenient.. But anyway as a parent of two in secondary school, as a person with respect for the teachers, as a guy who never stopped working since all this sh1t started, I hate idea to throw all the kids, all the teachers and other peeps directly involved in schools, into the deep water to watch if they can swim or not. So here we go, government can showel their master plan up to their ... Belittling of flaws in it, is not gonna help to anyone, even tho it seems very common here.

Boggles · 29-07-2020 08:53PM

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

WHO, there is still differing views on it but DOE can only really plan in line with current health guidelines.

No one is listening to the WHO.

Up until very recently there were saying masks were useless, long after the world had more than ample supply.

Again, if you are getting your scientific information from the WHO, that scientific information is out dated.

But how do you think super spreader events happen?

The infected person talks and coughs into 50 people faces in one venue?

ChelseaRentBoy · 29-07-2020 08:53PM

Russia saying they have a vaccine and it will be approved in weeks.

Alrigghtythen · 29-07-2020 08:55PM

the corpo wrote: »

The experts are all lining up behind the evidence that airborne transmission is a real and present danger, and the WHO - always slow to move - have agreed the evidence cannot be discounted.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/09/health/virus-aerosols-who.html

https://www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m2720

A day later

Dr Cillian De Gascun, director of the National Virus Reference Laboratory in UCD, said we do not have “great evidence” that smaller particles can cause significant spread of the virus.

He said measures implemented in Ireland would not have been successful if this virus was purely airborne and evidence so far indicates that the majority of infections relate to larger droplet transmission.

We know that, typically, with purely airborne viruses the R0 tends to be an awful lot higher, it tends to be up in the teens, which Sars-Cov-2 never was. Typically, we would expect to see the types of reports where people get infected in an empty room. So they go into a room where somebody who had the disease was there previously, that person has gone, the room was apparently empty and people acquire infection in that setting. That’s what happens with airborne pathogens. We’re not seeing that with Sars-Cov-2, it hasn’t been reported.

It’s not something that’s that’s a new consideration for us. Droplets and aerosols, the smaller particles, it’s all part of a continuum. At this point, what we know is that the majority of infections do seem to be related to the larger droplet transmission, which is why the physical distancing is so important.

https://www.thejournal.ie/airborne-transmission-5146701-Jul2020/

caveat emptor · 29-07-2020 08:55PM

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

WHO, there is still differing views on it but DOE can only really plan in line with current health guidelines.

They also say....don't expect anyone to keep you safe.

https://twitter.com/DrTedros/status/1286942111837937665?s=20

https://twitter.com/DrEricDing/status/1282700697058902017?s=20

Boggles · 29-07-2020 08:58PM

ChelseaRentBoy wrote: »

Russia saying they have a vaccine and it will be approved in weeks.

Apparently all the top dogs and super rich including Putin got it last week.

29-07-2020 08:59PM

the corpo wrote: »

The experts are all lining up behind the evidence that airborne transmission is a real and present danger, and the WHO - always slow to move - have agreed the evidence cannot be discounted.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/09/health/virus-aerosols-who.html

https://www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m2720

There is no doubt airborne transmission occurs. There is also no doubt the vast vast majority or transmission is not airborne. If we were only dealing with airborne transmissions it would be a much simpler outbreak as the r number would be far lower, and there would be fewer serious cases as it is also proven initial viral load is a major factor in how serious the case

Boggles · 29-07-2020 09:02PM

Deleted User wrote: »

There is no doubt airborne transmission occurs.

You need to contact the department with this new information.

Remember that the virus is spread by droplets and is not airborne so physical separation is enough to reduce the risk of spread to others even if they are in the same room

caveat emptor · 29-07-2020 09:04PM

Deleted User wrote: »

There is no doubt airborne transmission occurs. There is also no doubt the vast vast majority or transmission is not airborne. If we were only dealing with airborne transmissions it would be a much simpler outbreak as the r number would be far lower, and there would be fewer serious cases as it is also proven initial viral load is a major factor in how serious the case

You seem to think of it as being binary.

Nobody is saying you can't get it if someone spits in your face intentionally or unintentionally.

Spending all day in a room with 30 kids and no windows open increases the likelihood massively of AIRBORNE transmission.

That is you can sanitise your hands all you want.
Keep your distance etc.
You can still get infected.
If that is not even a given at this stage then good luck everyone.

See you back here for the post mortem.

Don't take my word for it take the WHO's => "It's airborne"

https://twitter.com/DrEricDing/status/1279765631680892929?s=20

ChelseaRentBoy · 29-07-2020 09:05PM

Boggles wrote: »

Apparently all the top dogs and super rich including Putin got it last week.

USA getting it last :pac:

Ireland loves Russia comrades.

Boggles · 29-07-2020 09:06PM

ChelseaRentBoy wrote: »

USA getting it last :pac:
.

It's probably the American vaccine.

:pac:

Alrigghtythen · 29-07-2020 09:13PM

caveat emptor wrote: »

They also say....don't expect anyone to keep you safe.

https://twitter.com/DrTedros/status/1286942111837937665?s=20

https://twitter.com/DrEricDing/status/1282700697058902017?s=20

Following a 2.5-hour choir practice attended by 61 persons, including a symptomatic index patient, 32 confirmed and 20 probable secondary COVID-19 cases occurred (attack rate = 53.3% to 86.7%); three patients were hospitalized, and two died. Transmission was likely facilitated by close proximity (within 6 feet) during practice and augmented by the act of singing.

The 2.5-hour singing practice provided several opportunities for droplet and fomite transmission, including members sitting close to one another, sharing snacks, and stacking chairs at the end of the practice. The act of singing, itself, might have contributed to transmission through emission of aerosols, which is affected by loudness of vocalization

One member had symptoms and came the next week
Questionable hand hygiene, eating oranges and stacking chairs
Median age 65
In march

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6919e6.htm

The dept. Aren't asking teachers to have 61 over 65s singing in the corner of the classroom

Alrigghtythen · 29-07-2020 09:15PM

caveat emptor wrote: »

You seem to think of it as being binary.

Nobody is saying you can't get it if someone spits in your face intentionally or unintentionally.

Spending all day in a room with 30 kids and no windows open increases the likelihood massively of AIRBORNE transmission.

That is you can sanitise your hands all you want.
Keep your distance etc.
You can still get infected.
If that is not even a given at this stage then good luck everyone.

See you back here for the post mortem.

Don't take my word for it take the WHO's => "It's airborne"

https://twitter.com/DrEricDing/status/1279765631680892929?s=20

Open the windows

caveat emptor · 29-07-2020 09:21PM

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

Open the windows

Happy with that. That would only be a consideration if airborne transmission acknowledged however.

You don't seriously think that 80% of a choir practice spat in each others face do you?

Fomite isn't a thing is it?
Otherwise everyone who got a takeaway coffee would be dead.
Judging by the amount of people I see sharing a lib and a milk jug I'd think that's negligible.

Alrigghtythen · 29-07-2020 09:40PM

caveat emptor wrote: »

Happy with that. That would only be a consideration if airborne transmission acknowledged however.

You don't seriously think that 80% of a choir practice spat in each others face do you?

Fomite isn't a thing is it?
Otherwise everyone who got a takeaway coffee would be dead.
Judging by the amount of people I see sharing a lib and a milk jug I'd think that's negligible.

I highly doubt they spat in each others faces.

They recommend using common touch items more often. I suppose if someone with the virus sneezed on the lids it might be more problematic. The cleaning helps against poor hand hygiene too.

ldy4mxonucwsq6 · 29-07-2020 09:47PM

Boggles wrote: »

No one is listening to the WHO.

Up until very recently there were saying masks were useless, long after the world had more than ample supply.

Again, if you are getting your scientific information from the WHO, that scientific information is out dated.

But how do you think super spreader events happen?

The infected person talks and coughs into 50 people faces in one venue?

I'm saying the DOE can't say it's airborne if it hasn't been classified as such.

How will schools be able to go back in September?

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