How will schools be able to go back in September?

is_that_so · 28-07-2020 09:02AM

downthemiddle wrote: »

Having read the document and having had time to digest it I’m left with more questions than answers. If it is safe to reopen schools in this manner it really begs the question why they were closed in the first place. Why hasn’t there been a full reopening of Irish society? Why are pubs closed? Why is the Dail sitting in the conference centre?
Students have to wear masks on the bus to school, they have to wear masks when they go to the shops, what transformation occurs when they enter a school building?

TBH you must have been asleep for the last five months if you don't know the answers to most of these questions. Travel and retail are down to regulations in force, presumably temporary. We don't know exactly what transformation will take place but there will be one.

khalessi · 28-07-2020 09:02AM

Lillyfae wrote: »

I just don't understand half the people on this thread.

Previously it was: "they won't give us the money for soap and hot water" but now that there's €375,000,000 earmarked it's "but there's no masks". Posts a few weeks ago were bemoaning the fact that that the pubs were going to be open before the schools, now they're more along the lines of how can the schools go back when it's not safe to open the pubs.

There's a real opportunity here to upgrade the schools in a way that was never possible before. To finally staff buildings adequately. From what I gather, not all schools will require upgrading thankfully, so the money will be shared amongst those that are most in need. The ball is firmly in the court of the Boards of Management and the principals now to start doing the work that needs to be done. This is where months of preparation would have come in very handy indeed. If a school's management can't, er, manage then they're not the right people for the job.

As a side note, I have a suspicion that sub teachers will (rightly) be centrally sourced and then deployed as necessary when needed for sick cover. This would be the most prudent way to manage it, but I would imagine the Unions not getting on board with it.

The half you don't understand, would that be the teacher half? Maybe because we see things you don't as you are not a teacher. Mad idea I know.

Yesterday was an exercise in pr and social media for the likes of you, someone who does understand how schools work.

Yes there is money available, at last but there is not the time to implement what has to be done by the 27 August when a lot of primary schools go back and when most secondary schools will be back.

The plan disregards most of what the unions asked for but hey ho we are used to being ignored.

THe 1080 new staff for pp is 1.3 people a school. The subs to be centrally located as you suggest for primary do not exist. Most sschools over the last few years have not been able to get subs. I have been stopped from doing a postgrad as it requires some days off and we cant get a sub. Very few if any teachers abroad will come home after seeing how the call for healthcare workers went and how they were cast aside.

The lovely drawings which they spent ages on are fanciful, very few schools have classes that size most are smaller or half that. I would loe to know were they got 80 sq metres.

The pods within pods for primary school, lovely, but we have being doing it for years, it is called sitting the children in groups, and guess what, viruses spread just as easily in poorly vented classrooms.

No teacher I know was consutled despite them saying we were. The only group that consulted me was VFT.

Safety for teachers totally disregarded but they gave us the number of the crowd to ring for wellbeing. No regard for social distancing, or teachers wearing masks.

But I know that teachers wll rise to the challenge as Leo put it because we have always done that. Meanwhile people on here will tell us how to do our job and bemoan teachers, if we see anything negative in the wonderful plan.

So no you do not understand as it is not a workplace you are familiar with.

lulublue22 · 28-07-2020 09:02AM

Lillyfae wrote: »

I just don't understand half the people on this thread.

Previously it was: "they won't give us the money for soap and hot water" but now that there's €375,000,000 earmarked it's "but there's no masks". Posts a few weeks ago were bemoaning the fact that that the pubs were going to be open before the schools, now they're more along the lines of how can the schools go back when it's not safe to open the pubs.

There's a real opportunity here to upgrade the schools in a way that was never possible before. To finally staff buildings adequately. From what I gather, not all schools will require upgrading thankfully, so the money will be shared amongst those that are most in need. The ball is firmly in the court of the Boards of Management and the principals now to start doing the work that needs to be done. This is where months of preparation would have come in very handy indeed. If a school's management can't, er, manage then they're not the right people for the job.

As a side note, I have a suspicion that sub teachers will (rightly) be centrally sourced and then deployed as necessary when needed for sick cover. This would be the most prudent way to manage it, but I would imagine the Unions not getting on board with it.

Yes and no - what can realistically be achieved re building works in 4 weeks. For the upgrading aspect to be effective it should have been rolled out at least by May. It is a totally squandered situation.
From a teachers perspective there was a lot of optics and I mean that genuinely. Headlines on RTE sounded good. 1000 additional teachers where are they coming from? The guidelines are hilarious - diagrams of 80 sqm classrooms with 32 children and a teacher - 16 children on top of each other on one side of the room and 16 on the other with a 1 m space between each group and 1 m between the class and the teacher at the top of the room. It’s farcical.
There is no practical way of adhering to SD with a full return that is the bottom line. Instead of acknowledging that we get pages of diagrams that are pure ****e. Masks are not a feature at all. So no SD and no masks. Public Health advice which is at odds at what is expected in the community.

School transport is a joke - kids to wear a mask and allocated seating - ok . Our school buses are full there is no spare capacity plus sone of our children travel for 1 to 1/12 morning and night on our buses. That’s crazy.

However we are where we are. What will be key in keeping our schools open is testing and response to cases / clusters.

ETA I think it’s a wasted opportunity to implement change in terms of class numbers. Class size is the elephant in the room that wasn’t even acknowledged.

sideswipe · 28-07-2020 09:04AM

khalessi wrote: »

Those same problems are there for 4th 5th and 6th, that has been mentioned a few times here.

Easier to find some solutions for a couple of classes that have their own classroom and teacher than a group of 30 young adults that move around to different classes all day surely?

Lillyfae · 28-07-2020 09:06AM

sideswipe wrote: »

I'm not a teacher so don't know the in's and out's of potential issues with the road map. I do think the more serious issues will be at secondary level were a classroom of pupils is basically a room of adults.

To be fair though, despite what they think, neither do teachers. They can throw up all the scientific research they want to but they have BAs and not BScs so their understanding is as limited as the research itself at this point. I'd also like to see claims of underlying conditions put to the test because it's being used as an argument for everything at this stage. I heard somewhere that this would be the case, that if someone says that they have an underlying condition that prevents them from being at work then it will have to be proven, and it would have to be one that actually puts them at risk.

I see secondary schools as less of a problem. Children are older so can be made cognizant of the risks. It's possible to leave them unattended for half an hour. They can work independently and can use technology for support. The secondary schools themselves have more funding, are larger, and are generally in better nick than primary schools.

I do agree that it would have been far better to get the funding in place earlier, but the planning should have been there months ago.

jimmytwotimes 2013 · 28-07-2020 09:07AM

sideswipe wrote: »

Are kids tests the same as adults i.e. long Q Tip up the nose to scrape the back of the throat?

I'd have to sedate or strap down our 9yr old to do that one!!

They are looking into alternate ways of testing for primary kids as the swab is recognised as being very unpleasant for that age group. Was mentioned on news last night

jimmytwotimes 2013 · 28-07-2020 09:11AM

Lillyfae wrote: »

.

I see secondary schools as less of a problem. Children are older so can be made cognizant of the risks. It's possible to leave them unattended for half an hour. They can work independently and can use technology for support. The secondary schools themselves have more funding, are larger, and are generally in better nick than primary schools.

No 2nd level student is to be left on their own for any period of time. Those days are long gone, if anything went wrong school management would be in court

Lillyfae · 28-07-2020 09:13AM

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

No 2nd level student is to be left on their own for any period of time. Those days are long gone, if anything went wrong school management would be in court

If they're at home on the Khan academy website the school management is going to be in court?

This is what I mean, how can anyone put anything in place when the organisation is full of this arm waving incoherence??

jimmytwotimes 2013 · 28-07-2020 09:14AM

Lillyfae wrote: »

If they're at home on the Khan academy website the school management is going to be in court?

This is what I mean, how can anyone put anything in place when the organisation is full of this arm waving incoherence??

Apologies, assumed you were leaving students unattended in a school setting.

Boggles · 28-07-2020 09:18AM

The vast majority of the 375m is for staffing. Are they going to "staff" in the yard?

I'm not seeing a lot of money for upgrading the schools?

There is this.

€4.2 million to enable schools to employ an aide to implement the logistical changes needed in schools – moving furniture, changing classroom layouts, set up hand sanitising stations, signage etc.

An "aide"?

Da fuq?

lulublue22 · 28-07-2020 09:20AM

I also took your post to mean unsupervised in school and going on what my gang say goes on when the teacher is 5 mins delayed I’d be if the opinion hell no

My children are well behaved before anyone commemts. &#55357;&#56833;

khalessi · 28-07-2020 09:21AM

Lillyfae wrote: »

To be fair though, despite what they think, neither do teachers. They can throw up all the scientific research they want to but they have BAs and not BScs so their understanding is as limited as the research itself at this point.

That is an incredible assumption and comment. Unbelievable but luckily you feel that you are qualified to comment. Where would we be without you:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

wirelessdude01 · 28-07-2020 09:23AM

average_runner wrote: »

2 kids, one going to 2nd class and the other 4th class.

Guidelines are not too bad. Only big question I have, will each school be allocated a GP.
Our school was designed pretty well to deal with this as all entrances to the classroom are directly from the yard.
We were with our GP two weeks ago and he said there is no way he cant test everyone that comes in with a temp, won't have the capacity to do it.

Down the country and traveling on buses is another issue

Think you already know the answer to that.

At the health briefing yesterday they were asked a question about testing and schools and they openly replied that they hadn't been included or consulted with regards to schools and testing.

glack · 28-07-2020 09:23AM

Boggles wrote: »

The vast majority of the 375m is for staffing. Are they going to "staff" in the yard?

I'm not seeing a lot of money for upgrading the schools?

There is this.

An "aide"?

Da fuq?

Think of schools with teaching principals. An aid would be hugely helpful as they can deal with the day to day logistics so the principal can teach. I actually like the idea of an aid in each school. Hiring an appropriate person will be the challenge there.

Lillyfae · 28-07-2020 09:26AM

Boggles wrote: »

An "aide"?

Da fuq?

A facility planner, who has a background in health and safety, occupational health etc etc. Hopefully not another teacher who's done a course anyway.

lulublue22 · 28-07-2020 09:27AM

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Think you already know the answer to that.

At the health briefing yesterday they were asked a question about testing and schools and they openly replied that they hadn't been included or consulted with regards to schools and testing.

Crikey I didn’t know that. I thought testing for schools given the fact that SD will not be happening and masks are optional for staff would be a central strategy to try and keep them open.

jrosen · 28-07-2020 09:28AM

The public health advise wont always be followed to a T simply because it clashes with what is needed and required to open up a school/business etc.

The older smaller schools will have the most work to do.
Its good to have a plan and know that the intention is for kids to return

Lillyfae · 28-07-2020 09:29AM

glack wrote: »

Think of schools with teaching principals. An aid would be hugely helpful as they can deal with the day to day logistics so the principal can teach. I actually like the idea of an aid in each school. Hiring an appropriate person will be the challenge there.

It definitely wouldn't be necessary to have one per school. Once the job is done then it would just require ongoing inspection. 1 per cachement area would be enough.

Leftwaffe · 28-07-2020 09:29AM

I still cannot figure out where the teachers are going to come from to cover classes at PP level. Even if we reach the full 1000 alloted for, it's not near enough. Am I wrong?

mirrorwall14 · 28-07-2020 09:30AM

Redordeadqwwer wrote: »

I still cannot figure out where the teachers are going to come from to cover classes at PP level. Even if we reach the full 1000 alloted for, it's not near enough. Am I wrong?

I don’t think you are. And I think that’s what the union is saying. They’re not objecting, just starting to point out this isn’t going to cover it

jimmytwotimes 2013 · 28-07-2020 09:32AM

Lillyfae wrote: »

It definitely wouldn't be necessary to have one per school. Once the job is done then it would just require ongoing inspection. 1 per cachement area would be enough.

Wud they want to avoid a person mixing thro different schools and increasing their contacts? This person would be a teacher and wud be needed to teach their classes?

Lillyfae · 28-07-2020 09:33AM

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

I don’t think you are.

Is it known how many teachers in the whole country are looking for work? How many qualified this year for example?

lulublue22 · 28-07-2020 09:33AM

Redordeadqwwer wrote: »

I still cannot figure out where the teachers are going to come from to cover classes at PP level. Even if we reach the full 1000 alloted for, it's not near enough. Am I wrong?

I still can’t figure out where the subs are going to come from for primary. We are an urban school and we struggled last winter to get subs. Subs are very very thin on the ground but all of a sudden we have enough spare teachers to create a national sub panel and cover an additional 1000 teachers at pp. #confusing

Lillyfae · 28-07-2020 09:35AM

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Wud they want to avoid a person mixing thro different schools and increasing their contacts? This person would be a teacher and wud be needed to teach their classes?

All schools should have this all the time anyway. Someone who knows the best way a school building should be set up and someone who's capable of implementing changes. They don't have to be in the building during normal school time, and they wouldn't be now anyway as it's the summer holidays.

Edit: not a teacher

mirrorwall14 · 28-07-2020 09:36AM

The shortage isn’t new at primary or post primary. I would be very concerned about finding staff. We have had different unqualified teachers on full timetables for several years because literally no one applied for the posts

Boggles · 28-07-2020 09:39AM

Lillyfae wrote: »

A facility planner, who has a background in health and safety, occupational health etc etc. Hopefully not another teacher who's done a course anyway.

So a specialist in logistics and planning with particular expertise in infectious disease control?

Yeah, they don't exist at the volume required and I imagine they would charge a lot more to implement a plan in an entire school than what is being offered.

I would also imagine if they were at honest and professional the first thing they would do is close down all prefabs and make them no go areas.

What schools need are contractors, plumbers, electricians, carpenters, etc. Who are available and willing to get all required done in less 5 weeks.

I don't see any funding for that. Unless I am missing something.

Leftwaffe · 28-07-2020 09:40AM

Lillyfae wrote: »

Is it known how many teachers in the whole country are looking for work? How many qualified this year for example?

Not sure on that but they say they've 600 got already through job share and people returning to education from other sectors. Hard see it.

I seen someone who worked out that it is 1.36 new teachers per PP school in Ireland.

The vast majority of our classes are 25 upwards. Relatively new building but room sizes aren't massive in most cases. Think the vast majority of class groups will have to be divided up. I'm just at a loss to figure out who's going to teach them.

wirelessdude01 · 28-07-2020 09:41AM

Lillyfae wrote: »

I see secondary schools as less of a problem. Children are older so can be made cognizant of the risks. It's possible to leave them unattended for half an hour. They can work independently and can use technology for support. The secondary schools themselves have more funding, are larger, and are generally in better nick than primary schools..

I'm primary but I had a little chuckle at the thoughts of leaving a group of teenagers to their own devices in school. You'd be up in front of the TC in a heartbeat. The innocence of non teachers amazes me at times.

Boggles · 28-07-2020 09:42AM

glack wrote: »

Think of schools with teaching principals. An aid would be hugely helpful as they can deal with the day to day logistics so the principal can teach. I actually like the idea of an aid in each school. Hiring an appropriate person will be the challenge there.

No, it's nothing to do with that.

Principals as far as I can tell will be relieved of their teaching duties one day a week to deal with Covid.

Where the extra subs are going to come from to deal with that alone, God knows.

Nearly 50,000 sub days last year were carried out by retired teachers at primary level.

That ain't going to happen this year.

joe40 · 28-07-2020 09:42AM

In the new teaching are they talking about new permanent posts or just a greater supply of sub teachers.

It will be hard to get people from abroad to come back for subbing work.

I live in the south but work in the North and wouldn't mind coming to the South to work (sterling taking a hammering main reason)

I would find it difficult to give up a permanent position for temporary work.

How will schools be able to go back in September?

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