How will schools be able to go back in September?

downthemiddle · 23-07-2020 11:55AM

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

By whom? Haven't seen it mentioned anywhere except on here. None of my teacher friends have heard it. Asked in our staff WhatsApp and principal hadn't heard about it either.

It was mentioned in passing by the NAPD and seems to have grown legs.

Deeec · 23-07-2020 11:58AM

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

Bless your imagination.

Who said anything about teachers being fired because I certainly didn't?

Parents will have a voice in determining whether online learning is going to be a viable contingency.

Covid payment doesn't equal losing your job, it just means that due to covid you can't attend your workplace have no option to work from home.

Parents voices will be very clear on the online learning alternative.

I agree with fringegirl. Teachers who cannot do their job due to covid be it in the classroom or from home should be placed on the covid payment. Can I ask teachers are you happy to be working your ass off while other teachers do nothing. Is that fair to you?

mcsean2163 · 23-07-2020 11:58AM

Murple wrote: »

You are likely in an area served by DEIS schools if you are in Dublin and surrounded by schools where the largest clsss size in any of them is 24. The additional teachers that are in your child's class from time to time are likely SET who are probably in the room for an hour a day or less and with other classes, groups or working 1:1 the rest of the day. DEIS schools have a higher quota of SET as well.
One fifth of children are in classes of 30 or more. 6 classes have more than 40 pupils including 2 in Galway and one in Donegal with 42 pupils.
The school with the highest average class size is in Glasnevin in Dublin with 31.9 pupils across 8 classrooms.
25% of pupils in Dun Laoghaire Rathdown area are in classes of 30+.
In Wicklow- 20.3%. Kildare- 19.1%. Westmeath- 23.5%.
Note these are percentages for classes above 30 pupils. It doesn't include those with 29 or 28 pupils.
I work in a city suburb- definitely not rural. Any of the schools within a 5 minute drive has classes of 28-32 with the exception of a DEIS school which has 20-24 per class and a COI school which has split classes with each teacher teaching 2 class levels so roughly 24-26 per classroom.

Many thanks Murple for the detailed reply.

Taking another angle, we could say 80% of classes have less than 30 children per class.

We could draw a line in the sans, i.e. 29 and no more. The other schools are then prioritized and funding delivered to assist the 20% in the high density classes to reduce their class sizes.

I'd be happy to promote that and write to government etc with that in mind. It would probably be a good thing too even after covid19 finishes

What do you think, would that be of any help?

Deeec · 23-07-2020 11:59AM

lulublue22 wrote: »

I’m a bit on the fence- good news that funding available. Questions - will schools have to jump through the usual hoops to apply. How long before it’s processed and will the 3 tender rule be wavered ? Also some amount of work in a relatively short period of time.

This is good news but how is this work to buildings going to be done before September. They should have had this funding available in June.

wirelessdude01 · 23-07-2020 12:00PM

lulublue22 wrote: »

I’m a bit on the fence- good news that funding available. Questions - will schools have to jump through the usual hoops to apply. How long before it’s processed and will the 3 tender rule be wavered ? Also some amount of work in a relatively short period of time.

We all know the hoops that normally have to be jumped through to get anything from the minor works scheme. I'm also guessing it will take the form of the school having to pay for it and then claim the money back. Not a hope in hell that the department will receive, process, award and fund in the space of 5 weeks.

lulublue22 · 23-07-2020 12:08PM

Icantthinkof1 wrote: »

For the teachers on here; what would you like to see happen in your school in order to ensure a safe (as reasonably possible) return to work in September?

PPE available - masks and or visors.
Hot water
Hand Sanitizer
Clear guidance around staff absence -
cover to be available from first day of illness-
due to covid symptoms being similar to colds viruses availability of testing for teachers and quick turn around.

Clear guidance around children who are dropped to school ill and or dosed up on calpol. ( it happens more than people think) ie can a school refuse to take a child who is unwell. Does the school have any recourse with parents who tend to be unavailable to collect children when contacted. ( Again we have a few parents who tend to be uncontactable when kids need to be sent home)

National sub panel ( don’t think we have the numbers )

Clear guidance around closing classes if teacher out / no subs available or a change in remit for SNA’s so that they can supervise said class.

Clear guidance around procedure to follow if there is a suspected or a case of covid in the school.

downthemiddle · 23-07-2020 12:08PM

Lillyfae wrote: »

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/grants-supports-and-incentives-whats-in-the-july-stimulus-plan-1012081.html

Seems funding can be applied for under an existing scheme:

Shoddy journalism. The minor works grant came out last November and has been spent by most schools.

lulublue22 · 23-07-2020 12:15PM

Deeec wrote: »

I agree with fringegirl. Teachers who cannot do their job due to covid be it in the classroom or from home should be placed on the covid payment. Can I ask teachers are you happy to be working your ass off while other teachers do nothing. Is that fair to you?

I can only speak for myself - I love my job and take a great amount of pride in what I do. In relation to others I don’t tend to focus on what others do or don’t do. Be that in the teaching profession or any other. I’d have no interest in doing my job with a what is x doing. Am I doing more than them that’s not fair attitude.

ldy4mxonucwsq6 · 23-07-2020 12:17PM

grind gremlin wrote: »

I worry for the quality of teaching in September if we are constantly trying to stop 30 kids from physically interacting with each other and sharing items and resources...

Good luck explaining that one to kids who will have been playing and doing sports/camps together for months by the time September comes.

The reason for the class bubbles is so that teachers won't have to focus on things like that.

Let's get this straight, it is impossible for young children to social distance, while classrooms might need to be set up for distancing the reality is that kids will do what they do.

Even teens have a hard time doing it and they are aware of the reasons for the concept. Certainly in primary schools you'll be wasting your time and just making yourself hoarse.

mirrorwall14 · 23-07-2020 12:18PM

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

By whom? Haven't seen it mentioned anywhere except on here. None of my teacher friends have heard it. Asked in our staff WhatsApp and principal hadn't heard about it either.

Our creche policy is new clothes daily and We had to provide shoes that remain in the creche. Outdoor shoes removed on entry so the idea of uniform changes daily didn’t surprise me

wirelessdude01 · 23-07-2020 12:19PM

Deeec wrote: »

I agree with fringegirl. Teachers who cannot do their job due to covid be it in the classroom or from home should be placed on the covid payment. Can I ask teachers are you happy to be working your ass off while other teachers do nothing. Is that fair to you?

I tend to just worry about my own room. My focus is always very much on the children in front of me. What goes on elsewhere doesn't really cross my radar until I know what my next class is.

Icantthinkof1 · 23-07-2020 12:21PM

@grind gremlin and @lulublue22
To be fair what you’ve listed seems very reasonable
Would it help if each child came to school with their own kits including hand sanitisers, towels and toilet paper?
My eldest child is 14 and I definitely remember a time the school requested all children would be sent to school with these (I can’t remember why it was requested at the time)
Although monitoring that each child uses their sanitisers properly would probably take up so much time
I plan to put zoono hand sanitiser (sanitiser lasts up to 24hrs and will stay on even after regular hand washing) on my younger children before they go out the door as I couldn’t trust them to wash/ sanitise their hands properly in school.
Agreed as a parent I would feel it would be safer for my children to be in classrooms of 15 rather than 30 even if it meant them only returning to school for 1/2 the time
If there is a full return in September then between my 3 children they will have daily contact with 90+ children

wirelessdude01 · 23-07-2020 12:22PM

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

Let's get this straight, it is impossible for young children to social distance, while classrooms might need to be set up for distancing the reality is that kids will do what they do.

Even teens have a hard time doing it and they are aware of the reasons for the concept. Certainly in primary schools you'll be wasting your time and just making yourself hoarse.

Majority of kids will do what they are told to do. That's what generally happens in schools. Policy will have to be in ace for those parents and kids who repeatedly flout the public health advice that is/will be in place to make schools as safe as possible.

FishOnABike · 23-07-2020 12:26PM

combat14 wrote: »

just seen today that a second building site in Dublin has at least one case of covid 19. workplace has been shut down for deep clean.

reports today that schools wont be automatically shut down if there are covid cases amongst staff and students...

why is there one set of safety rules for building sites and Tds in their 50,000 euro a day 2000 seater convention centre and different rules for the safety of students and teachers? it doesn't make sense?

if it is not safe for TDs to return to the Dail why should schools reopen? looks like distance blended learning is the way to go for now ....

I'm surprised thus is not being raised as more of an issue.

If public health guidelines are watered down for primary and secondary schools because they're too difficult to do where does this leave principals, members of the board of management, the Department of Education and Skills, and the Department of Health when it comes to liability for their decisions.

Given the mounting evidence of transmission in school environments, applying any less standards than apply in other workplaces or in the recently published third level and further education guidelines could be considered negligent.

Are our schools, principals, members of boards of management, the Department of Education and Skills, and the Department of Health prepared for a possible onslaught of civil cases for negligence should they apply any lower standards in schools than elsewhere.

If I was a parent representative on the board of management I'd be resigning my position if any lower standards were being applied in schools than elsewhere.

wirelessdude01 · 23-07-2020 12:28PM

FishOnABike wrote: »

I'm surprised thus is not being raised as more of an issue.

If public health guidelines are watered down for primary and secondary schools because they're too difficult to do where does this leave principals, members of the board of management, the Department of Education and Skills, and the Department of Health when it comes to liability for their decisions.

Given the mounting evidence of transmission in school environments applying any less standards than apply in other workplaces or in the recently published third level and further education guidelines, could be considered negligent.

Are our schools, principals, members of boards of management, the Department of Education and Skills, and the Department of Health prepared for a possible onslaught of civil cases for negligence should they apply any lower standards in schools than elsewhere.

If I was a parent representative on the board of management I'd be resigning my position if any lower standards were being applied in schools than elsewhere.

Insurance could be an issue.

Tokyo · 23-07-2020 12:31PM

Blondini wrote: »

As a teacher, I think the openings should be pushed back until October anyway to compensate for all the extra hard work I did grading the Leaving Cert. I didn't get my full three months holidays this year.

Blondini wrote: »

Thanks. Also, some of those long days I had to work past 3.55PM. No one thinks of these hardships when they they give out about the teachers. Thanks again.

Mod: Obvious troll is obvious. Don't post in the thread again.

ldy4mxonucwsq6 · 23-07-2020 12:34PM

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Majority of kids will do what they are told to do.

I take it you dont have kids

Deeec · 23-07-2020 12:34PM

lulublue22 wrote: »

I can only speak for myself - I love my job and take a great amount of pride in what I do. In relation to others I don’t tend to focus on what others do or don’t do. Be that in the teaching profession or any other. I’d have no interest in doing my job with a what is x doing. Am I doing more than them that’s not fair attitude.

I can tell you are a good conscientious teacher by your posts and you are right not to worry what others are doing. For the last few months the taxpayer is paying the teachers who haven't stepped up to the mark ( I do admit though that their lack of work could be due to their principles decisions). In any other profession this wouldn't be tolerated. I think it is very unfair to the excellent hard-working teachers we do have - I would prefer to see being paid more being honest. I have never seen a bad teacher lose their job

wirelessdude01 · 23-07-2020 12:36PM

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

I take it you dont have kids

Who says I don't have children?

And you ain't a teacher.

downthemiddle · 23-07-2020 12:38PM

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

I take it you dont have kids

As you said yourself you could never be a teacher.

FishOnABike · 23-07-2020 12:38PM

jrosen wrote: »

I could apply that argument to everything. If its not safe for TD's then how is it safe for supermarket workers, hair dressers, serving staff in restaurants. None of whom earn a lot an typically have zero benefits.

It's not. In the UK retail workers are 75% more likely to die from CoViD-19 than the rest of the population.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/14/english-mask-plan-will-help-tackle-high-covid-death-rate-for-shop-staff-matt-hancock

ldy4mxonucwsq6 · 23-07-2020 12:42PM

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Who says I don't have children?

And you ain't a teacher.

Kids will do what they're told is your answer to the obvious issues with social distancing where children are concerned

Murple · 23-07-2020 12:43PM

mcsean2163 wrote: »

Many thanks Murple for the detailed reply.

Taking another angle, we could say 80% of classes have less than 30 children per class.

We could draw a line in the sans, i.e. 29 and no more. The other schools are then prioritized and funding delivered to assist the 20% in the high density classes to reduce their class sizes.

I'd be happy to promote that and write to government etc with that in mind. It would probably be a good thing too even after covid19 finishes

What do you think, would that be of any help?

Yeah 80% have less that 30 but 29 and no more is still far too big. It's not exactly aiming high. If 1 in 5 are in classes of 30+, I would imagine that the percentage in classes of 28+ is significantly higher. We have one class over 30. We have 12 classes that are 28 or higher. So in my school, 31 children are in a class of 30+ but almost 350 are in a class of 28+.
We should be aiming for no more than 24 in a primary classroom, 20 in a junior class. The INTO have been campaigning for this for years. They have run numerous campaigns in the media and directly to parents. Teachers and parents have been asked to email TDs directly when budget submissions were being made. At one stage, every child was sent home with a postcard and parents asked to mail it to their TD. Has it made a difference? No. Generally the comments made like 'when I was in school, we had 36 in my class and standards were higher' or 'teachers want smaller classes cos they're lazy and want an easy life'.
It is coming back to bite society now though as if we had classes of 20, the return to school would be a lot more manageable. If we had invested in our school buildings and made sure ALL children had a decent school building to attend with enough space in every classroom and a refusal to accept toilets and store cupboards being used as support classrooms, return to school would be a lot more manageable. If we had invested properly in learning resources so each classroom had enough for every child rather than shared between several classrooms with 4 children sharing each set in each room, return to school would be a lot more manageable. If schools were funded properly, they would have no concerns about buying things like soap, hand sanitisers, masks for when needed, suitable furniture such as single desks, disinfectants for cleaning surfaces, additional cleaner hours etc. as these would be fairly basic supplies.

grind gremlin · 23-07-2020 12:43PM

Icantthinkof1 wrote: »

@grind gremlin and @lulublue22
To be fair what you’ve listed seems very reasonable
Would it help if each child came to school with their own kits including hand sanitisers, towels and toilet paper?
My eldest child is 14 and I definitely remember a time the school requested all children would be sent to school with these (I can’t remember why it was requested at the time)
Although monitoring that each child uses their sanitisers properly would probably take up so much time
I plan to put zoono hand sanitiser (sanitiser lasts up to 24hrs and will stay on even after regular hand washing) on my younger children before they go out the door as I couldn’t trust them to wash/ sanitise their hands properly in school.
Agreed as a parent I would feel it would be safer for my children to be in classrooms of 15 rather than 30 even if it meant them only returning to school for 1/2 the time

Bringing towels creates its own problems. They are dropped / left on the sink / on the floor while the child uses the bathroom. Then picked up covered in lots of new germs.

Half classes massively reduces the contacts.

Imagine having 3 children in a school..... parent or child tests positive... each sibling in a class of almost 30.... potential contact list of 90. All 90 go home to their respective families / childcare facilities....
It only takes one match...... and we are packing all of our matches in beside each other..... just because children ‘can’t social distance’ doesn’t mean we just pack them in as usual and hope for the best.
Half a class can then be subdivided into 2 pods, further halving the potential contacts.

Trying to create small pods within a classroom is practically impossible. My own students are tripping over each other’s chairs when they need to leave the room to use the bathroom (we have shared toilets outside the class..... another minefield).

If schools don’t get this safe return to the classroom done properly we will be crucified. How anyone in their right mind thinks we can coordinate a full return to school at the start of September for all children is beyond me..... there will be chaos at any school of a considerable size. Socially distanced, staggered drop offs, multiple entrances for children that are potentially returning to a different classroom will result in a sea of confusion and an entire school population quickly becoming close contacts of each other.

Birdy · 23-07-2020 12:44PM

Lots of talk about return to schools today on Leaders Questions.

It looks like it'll be next week before there are any answers.

Lillyfae · 23-07-2020 12:45PM

Deeec wrote: »

This is good news but how is this work to buildings going to be done before September. They should have had this funding available in June.

The scheme has been available since 2013.

downthemiddle wrote: »

The minor works grant came out last November and has been spent by most schools.

Isn't it available annually?

€5,500 basic grant plus €18.50 per mainstream pupil and €74 per special needs pupil on the rolls on the 30th September of the year prior to the issue of the grant. (The €74 rate applies to a special needs pupil attending a special school or attending a special class attached to a mainstream school);
In the future the grant will be paid each school year in either December or January.

Shoddy journalism.

I read the circular, available here:
https://www.education.ie/en/Circulars-and-Forms/Active-Circulars/cl0062_2013.pdf

wirelessdude01 · 23-07-2020 12:45PM

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

Kids will do what they're told is your answer to the obvious issues with social distancing where children are concerned

My point is that kids generally do what they are told in school. We don't know yet what that will be but I have faith that the kids of Ireland will do what's asked of them. That's what generally happens in schools.

However it does appear that you have little faith in them.

FishOnABike · 23-07-2020 12:45PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Because the unions appear to be focused on finding problems not solutions

Well if you don't first identify the potential problems you can't put solutions in place to avoid them.

lulublue22 · 23-07-2020 12:53PM

Deeec wrote: »

I can tell you are a good conscientious teacher by your posts and you are right not to worry what others are doing. For the last few months the taxpayer is paying the teachers who haven't stepped up to the mark ( I do admit though that their lack of work could be due to their principles decisions). In any other profession this wouldn't be tolerated. I think it is very unfair to the excellent hard-working teachers we do have - I would prefer to see being paid more being honest. I have never seen a bad teacher lose their job

I’ll take the compliment ðŸ˜ Like any profession there is good and not so good. That’s not unique to teaching. What I will say is there is a grievance policy that parents can follow - teacher first if not resolved principal , then BOM and then Dep. I would genuinely be interested if any if the posters who where unhappy with the educational provision followed that procedure.
Also we are in an unprecedented situation - online teaching in my opinion is not great for primary school children and tbf there are a load if issues re hardware / broad band parents trying to work etc. Coupled with the very last minute nature of the close down - we were told at 12 that we were closed for 2weeks and to get work organised for that period. I’m not surprised that responses varied from school to school. Hopefully if we have to return to blended / online learning then lessons will have been learnt and a more cohesive plan in place.

ETA I genuinely believe that there are by far more hard working conscientious teachers than not - it’s just that we don’t get to hear if them as often. You just have to look at this thread to see how committed teachers are.

Murple · 23-07-2020 12:54PM

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

How has the whole no uniform thing become gospel?

Leo Varadkar has said in Leaders Questions that there is no advice given that uniforms should pose any risk to virus spread so uniform is a matter for each school to decide and is not part of public health advice.
Leo has spoken so now it is Gospel!:rolleyes:

How will schools be able to go back in September?

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